Stainless steel media, should I add it?

Ive been motoring along now with the normal walnut media tumbler and later in the process using ultrasonic then back into the media for a re shine. I am anal about wanting shiny brass. It doesnt perform any better. I just want those things to look brand new when I open my box. Ive taken a lot of time and gotten my process down to a science, "for me". Although I do from time to time still post on the hall of shame but thats a whole other topic.

My issue is this. Where would I put it / where do you put it, in your reloading steps? Would I still use the media to knock off the range gunk before running them through the dies? Would it basically go into the process where the sonic cleaner and second media run is? As it stands now the media tumbler is my limiting factor on how many pieces of brass I can get started with. I could add an additional media tumbler for a lot less money. The down side to my process is I check every flash hole and wipe out the media dust to be sure no flash holes have any media in them prior to loading. I am thinking that the ss will eliminate this laborious step. Although I hear you need to check to be sure you dont have a pin stuck in there anywhere?

So are they worth it? If I bought one it would be the rebel 17 so not cheap. Its just that I got some brass from a guy a few months ago and it was perfect!!!

I know it does nothing for the performance of the round and I am needlessly chasing something I dont need to but I cant seem to help my self lol. So I want some experiences. Would you buy it again?

I shoot one round at a time from a bench and place each used case on a clean towel, so it comes home from the range clean and without grit. So I lube, deprime, neck size, body size, and form the neck with a special mandral, chamfer the neck, and then wet SS tumble. Of course, if you pick up brass from the ground, your routine will be different.

Save yourself some money and get the Frankford Arsenal Platinum Series Rotary Tumbler. I haven't used the Rebel 17, but I really like the Frankford. The Rebel says it takes 3 to 4 hours, but I never run my Frankford more than 90 minutes. Plus it has a timer. Check it out.

I have been using the Thumbler and stainless pins for several years and have cleaned at least 8K 223 and 2K handgun cases with it. My current process is:
Decapping with a Lee universal die
Tumbling with the SS pins for about 90 minutes
Drying
Sizing
Trimming
Tumbling about 20-30 minutes with corncob to remove the sizing lube

I usually clean about 100 pieces of brass in each batch using about 7 pounds of SS pins, 1/2 tablespoon of Dawn detergent, 1/4 teaspoon of Lemishine and fill with hot water to about 1 inch below the top of the Thumbler drum. Initially I was using 5 pounds of pins and tumbling as much as 3 hours. Although the cases came out very clean, the was noticeable chipping or peening on the case mouths, apparently caused by the cases colliding while tumbling. Using more pins and reducing the tumbling time essentially eliminated this issue.

If I were buying a wet tumbler today, it would be the Frankford and I would use the money saved to buy more SS pins.

Yep. This is what i do but i use an ultrasonic

Decap, clean, dry, size, tumble in dry media to remove lube, clean out flash hole, measure case length and trim if necessary, examine condition of case, chamfer and debur, prime, charge and seat bullets

Doc do yourself a favor...if you want new looking brass get a stainless steel tumbler...90mins and it looks newer than new.


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F.A.R.T is a great system for the money. I was using a sonic. Now I tumble. Still inspect to insure no pins stuck in flash hole.

I get the idea that the O.P. is asking if he can use SS media instead of walnut shells, which implies that he's using a vibratory tumbler. Won't work. He'll need to buy a rotating drum tumbler. Should he? IMHO yes. I hardly ever use the vibrator anymore. For one thing the vibrator puts toxic dust into the air. Wet tumbling doesn't.

I deprime using a depriming tool, NOT my sizing die. Then tumble in SS pins as required depending on how dirty the cases are. Dump into a plastic colander sitting in a deep bowl full of warm water. Pick cases out one at a time, giving them a shake, mouth down, while still under water. Pins do not stay inside if you it do this way, even with .223 cases. The pins meanwhile fall through the colander into the bowl. Rinse them thoroughly, then pour the lot thru a screen sifter, and dump the pins back into the tumbler. Dry the cases and proceed from there. I use a lanolin case lube, so when sizing is done I use the same colander and bowl to rinse off the lube with hot water. I have thus completely eliminated that tedious step of clearing media from flash holes.

No he's not talking about adding it to or putting it in his vibratory tumbler...he even states "if I buy one it will be the rebel 17 not so cheep"!!

As I said doc and I think we talked a little about this awhile ago...once you go stainless all that other equipment will sit somewhere collecting dust.

I've had my 17 for just a little over 2yrs(I think)and I use it at least 2-4x per month.

Yes I'd without hesitation I'd buy another one but the good thing with the 17 you can buy just parts if you need them so expensive for a reason.

And I've played with about every combo of tumbling out there as far as hot cold different soaps tumble times and amount of brass....

Ajax works the best...cold water works better than hot 90mins is the same as 3 hours and I tumble 175 6mm creed or 260 cases at a time...and rinse with cold water...

Less than 100 cases...
Cold water
1/2TSP yellow Ajax
1/8 teaspoon lemi shine

More than 100 cases
1TSP yellow Ajax
1/4 teaspoon lemi shine

Get the rebel 17 kit with the separator...you can afford it your just cheap lol!

Mixtures above are assuming your not tumbling range brass!!





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Ok it took me a little time to get back here. I recently had surgery and have been laying around and not at the computer as often. Back at work today so anyhow.

What do you think about neck tension? I keep hearing that ss dings up the necks and effects neck tension. I think its just a bunch of bs and can be delt with if its even something to worry about in the first place. I use bushing dies and can simply go up or down a k if I need to adjust.

Yes LR you are right I can afford it. And I AM cheep lol. That is exactly what my wife said when I showed her what I was looking at and wondering about. I am waaaay OCD and like to study things far too much before I buy. Im wired that way. Its self preservation against buyers remorse. But let me tell ya about a savage 6.5 CM I bought for 3k. I will be ordering the 17 shortly. :)

Where in the process do you use it?
Do you use a generic decapping die first?
Then anneal then tumble?

Can I use the media separator that I used with the walnut shells?

I ordered a magnetic transfer thingamabob. looked useful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doctnj

Ok it took me a little time to get back here. I recently had surgery and have been laying around and not at the computer as often. Back at work today so anyhow.

What do you think about neck tension? I keep hearing that ss dings up the necks and effects neck tension. I think its just a bunch of bs and can be delt with if its even something to worry about in the first place. I use bushing dies and can simply go up or down if I need to adjust.

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Wet tumbling with SS media will scrub all the carbon out of the inside of the case necks. And dipping your case necks in Imperial dry graphite neck lube (fine powdered carbon) will replace it. The expander will smear this "carbon" and coat the inside of the neck again. Just remember to get the container with the ceramic balls, and all you do is dip and rotate the case.

http://www.redding-reloading.com/ima.../app_media.jpg

Below the biggest problem when wet tumbling is case mouth peening if the cases are left in too long. The case mouth on the right is brand new and untouched and as it came tumbled from the factory.

The case on the left has been fired and then tumbled to long, and the case trimming and deburring have been badly battered and peened. The cure for this is to trim and deburr after tumbling.

http://i.imgur.com/CIxnlIW.jpg

NOTE, I wet tumble now because I have semi-autos that throw perfectly good brass away and makes you go look for it. And when you find them on the ground they have embedded dirt and grit on them that can scratch your dies. And wet tumbling with SS media scrubs the brass clean and free of any grit that can scratch the dies and brass.

Moral of story, make sure you have carbon covered balls and don't fall asleep when wet tumbling.

shoot
decap with universal decap die
anneal if its time...every 2nd firing
tumble
rinse
dry in my drier box
clean primer pockets every 2nd or 3rd firing
throw cases in a cake pan and spray with 12-1 liquid lanolin and 99% isopropyl
FL size..i use a 22cal brush and graphite to lube the inside of the necks...basically same thing Ed is saying
wipe cases with 70% isopropyl and a rag
trim and ready to load

tumbling DOES NOT remove all the carbon from the neck at 90mins and DOES NOT ding up the INSIDES of the necks period!! BUY THE KIT AND STOP BEING CHEAP LOL!!!

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Originally Posted by LongRange

shoot
decap with universal decap die
anneal if its time...every 2nd firing
tumble
rinse
dry in my drier boxhttp://accurateshooter.net/Blog/stm011lake.jpg
clean primer pockets every 2nd or 3rd firing
throw cases in a cake pan and spray with 12-1 liquid lanolin and 99% isopropyl
FL size..i use a 22cal brush and graphite to lube the inside of the necks...basically same thing Ed is saying
wipe cases with 70% isopropyl and a rag
trim and ready to load
http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/stm011lake.jpg
tumbling DOES NOT remove all the carbon from the neck at 90mins and DOES NOT ding up the INSIDES of the necks period!! BUY THE KIT AND STOP BEING CHEAP LOL!!!

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I don't know what type wet tumbler you have, but I have the Thumler's Model B High Speed Tumbler and my necks on the inside are stripped clean of carbon and the primer pockets are clean in less than 90 minutes. And it will peen the case mouths if left in 90 minutes, so I'm guessing you have a slower speed tumbler from the results you stated above.

Meaning never say never about peened case mouths and removing "ALL" the carbon from inside the case.

Brass Cleaning with Stainless Media
Stainless Tumbling Media System Review

By Jason Koplin, Forum Member
http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...ainless-media/

My 5.56 brass looks just the same as from the link above.

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/stm011lake.jpg

Read my post ed I said INSIDE case necks don't get dinged or peened NOT the mouths.

And I have the rebel 17 tumbler so you may be right about the speed but even after 3 hours of tumbling I've NEVER had a case come out brand new clean like you have posted and neither has anyone I know using the same tumbler I am.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by doctnj

Ok it took me a little time to get back here. I recently had surgery and have been laying around and not at the computer as often. Back at work today so anyhow.

What do you think about neck tension? I keep hearing that ss dings up the necks and effects neck tension. I think its just a bunch of bs and can be delt with if its even something to worry about in the first place. I use bushing dies and can simply go up or down a k if I need to adjust.

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LongRange

I forgot to add the above to my last posting, there are competitive shooters who say removing all the carbon from the neck effects neck tension and accuracy. And you said it doesn't remove all the carbon "BUT" it does remove all of mine. So again it depends on the speed of the tumbler on how fast the stainless steel media scrubs the cases clean.

I just put 100 once fired Lake City 7.62 cases in my tumbler for an hour and there is just a faint tint inside the cases and faint coloration in the primer pockets. So again thats what I meant by saying never say never because of all the different type tumblers on the market.

The competitive shooters who do not like wet tumbling or sonic cleaning just brush the inside of the case and leaving the carbon inside the necks. They feel the stripped clean case necks will allow the bullet to bond to the inside of the case neck and effect bullet grip. The less fussy competitive shooters will wet tumble or sonic clean but seat the bullets long and just before the match seat the bullets to their proper depth and breaking any bonding.

So my post was not meant to be insulting and I was just clearing up the facts about wet tumbling, removing carbon and peened case mouths.

not taken as an insult and i agree with you if all carbon is removed it effects accuracy(something i tested)and will also cause bullet bond if the load ammo sets long enough...also im not arguing the fact that YOUR tumbler removes ALL the carbon from the necks BUT i am saying that MY tumbler does not and i know at least 5 other guys that have the same tumbler(Rebel 17)as i do and they have the same results..so..as you say it must be that YOUR tumbler turns at higher RPMs which would make sense...as far as the MOUTHS getting peened...i agree with you there as well because MY tumbler(and id guess ALL SS tumblers)peen the MOUTHS to some extent BUT the SS pins DO NOT peen the INSIDES of the necks and thats the question Doc asked.

so like you im just clearing up some of the facts about SS tumbling...im honestly not trying to argue or be a dick just trying to clear things up so more misinformation isnt pasted down the line.

**Ed i went back and re-read Docs question and he DOES NOT actually mention the insides of the necks specifically so my mistake...i miss read his question but i will stand behind what i posted above.**

Its going to come down to some experimentation. Heck I may not shoot good enough to notice any difference. lol. But I will keep tabs on everything just the same. There are some guys on my local prs group thread that want me to report if I notice / measure any changes when switching. I got the 17 in last night but I have to wait on another package from Cabelas. No I didnt buyt the kit. I had a cabelas card I had to use from Christmas.

Oh and a public service announcement. If you have nra membership and havent actually "activated" the free included insurance. Be sure to go on line and do it. I had 2 cars broken into in my driveway and two guns stolen. If I had activated my freakin insurance I could have gotten them replaced for free. I auto / home insurance deductible is high enough it is a wash. And they got my favorite pocket knife. Its been determined that its someone that knows me. They better hope I dont figure it out!

Gee, whizzakers! You left guns in your car(s)?????

Yes. They were cheap. We live in the country on a dead end. It's a small town with very low crime. This was a targeted theft. I will eventually figure out who it was.

Sucks that our world has become full of lowlifes that you have to carry weapon to go to the store. Can't leave your doors unlocked at night, or trust leaving anything in your vehicles over night. Just plain sucks! Hope you find the lowlife(s).

Discussion on peening brass cases. I do not have the metallurgical or engineering knowledge to be certain but I am in the camp that in order to peen you need enough mass and velocity to cuase the surface of the metal to be compressed making a skin of more dense material. Unless you are using some very heavy pins n a large diameter tumbling drum I can't see that happening.

Post removed; duplicated post number 3 and I didn't want to come off as a DH.

Update. I ran the tumbler and the results were fantastic. When I reloaded I used graphite inside the necks and the "feel" when seating the bullets felt just about the same as the dry tumbling. Not that it was scientific but it had the same light feel. Tomorrow will be when the rubber meets the road. Ive had the bullets loaded for a few days now and I am going to be shooting 3 calibers. Ill be measuring 10 cases of dry tumbled brass against 10 rounds of wet tumbled brass. If there is a noticeable difference Ill repeat the test. If its within 2 or 3 either way Ill call it good but anything above that will be considered significant. Ill report back. That is if anyone cares to hear the results. lol

I'll just add to inspect the primer pockets on each case. Not too many get pins stuck in them, but it does happen. I've found some cartridges are worse than others, for unknown reason. In my 40 SW cases - about 5% have pins stuck. Less on 9MM and 357 Mag straight wall cases - 2-3%.

In your original post you said you really like extra shine on the final product, imo then you will still spend some time in the dry tumbler. I would still suggest the stainless media tumbling thought for the clean primer pockets in inside case cleaning.

Not too happy with my Thumlers Tumbler - squeaking rod bushings after the first couple of uses. I'm going to call them and see if they have an upgrade to the bushings - I'll look at the Rebel 17 - see if it has bearings on the support rods. Bearings would be better than bushings.

Biggest reason I thought I would post is to emphasize the need to inspect primer pockets for stuck pins.

Bearings on the rods. I'll be posting the results of the shoot today. I have some questions I need input on.

Ill try to make this as short as possible because people dont like to read long posts.
I shot 3 rifles today. 10 rounds using dry medium to clean the brass and 10 rounds that used stainless pins.

All three rifles MV dropped an average of 15 fps. I would think this may be due to less neck tension but honestly I also just opened a bottle of new powder when I started loading the stainless rounds so it possibly could have been the powder.

Next the SD and ES on all three rifles improved from dry to stainless just a couple points but improved nonetheless. I cant tie that change into powder so maybe there could have been lighter neck tension but apparently more consistent.

But last issue and the one I need help understanding. My rpr 243 and the 6.5 creedmoor both have somewhere around a 5 SD with an es in the teens. My 260 on the other hand has an SD of 11.8 with the stainless and a large ES in the 30's. I looked back at a year ago and it is about the same. On paper at 100 yrds I can make one ragged hole with 10 shots off of bags so it appears to perform well. Does my rifle not like that load as much as I think it does? Should I go back through load development again? I can cover the hole of ten rounds with a dime. Why do my numbers say other wise? I am confused. I take all of my reloading through the same steps every time. I anneal every time so the neck has the same properties every time. The only things that come to mind are the large jump around 30 thousanths and the possibility that my rifle just is not in tune with that charge weight. Any thoughtful input would be appreciated.

I have the Hornady ultrasonic cleaner and a Rebel 17. Ran brass thru the ultrasonic cleaner before I got my Rebel. After I ran some brass thru the Rebel 17 with the stainless steel media I proceeded to run the ultrasonic brass thru the tumbler. No comparison. I could see down inside of the brass after running in the Rebel just from the reflection of the light inside. Not so with the ultrasonic. Don't get me wrong, the Hornady cleans it good but the Rebel is a beast. The quality of the Rebel is also excellent. The base is heavy, pillow block bearings for the barrel rollers. The barrel itself is also of good quality. I'm a fabricator/welder and I over build stuff. I was impressed with the weight of the steel used and the quality. The Rebel is of course more expensive than the Hornady but if you want sparkling brass, the Rebel 17 with the stainless steel media is a winner in my book.

Weld fool you are absolutely correct about ultrasonic vs the 17. I did exactly what you did. I used to go 4 hours in dry media. Get everything trimmed then into the sonic. Go one case at a time and wipe out the pockets with a q tip to get them as clean as I wanted them. Then back into the media for 4 more hours. Then inspect the cases one at a time to get the media out of the flash hole which was 90% of the cases. Now 2 hours in the 17 and bamm. Awesomeness. But I have the above differences to think about. I really think that the slight difference is no difference at all. Maybe even better as they seem to be more uniform result. I just wish I knew why my 260 was so out of line.

Quote:

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I just wish I knew why my 260 was so out of line.

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Are you annealing?

Yes. I anneal every time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doctnj

Yes. I anneal every time.

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Sorry, I did not read the whole post.
I had this happen with a CBI barrel. I wish I had an air gauge and a bore scope. I still cant figure out what happened to it. At around 1200rds it just went south. I tried JB's and carbon removers and copper removers. The bore scope might tell the tale.

I've gone into this in Greater detail over on snipers hide under the reloading forum if you can go over there and read it and tell me what you think please

Annealing once every round is a bench rest shooter need, unless you shoot the 0s, 1 or 2s, excessive.

It can also affect cases if not done right.

That said, I have a vibratory tumbler and my brass is totally clean, factory bright. It takes 6 or 8 hours but I keep reserve brass so I am not short in any area. Some is waiting to be sized, sometimes some is being tumbled, some is tumbled (trimmed if needed) and ready to load.

I got a batch of once fired RP that was stainless steel tumbled and the finish is off. Shoots fine, but lost that nice brass luster, more a duller yellow now. I like my shiny shells so that is a bit of a downer.

Just have not seen the need to get any of the other stuff.

So with all this process change I was looking at my loads. I discovered that on my 260 I selected a bushing that is too large and was getting high ES and SD. However on my 6.5 Creedmoor I chose too small of a bushing from a suggestion from another shooter. My question is this. With the bushing being quite a bit too small, I'm getting very low ES and SD. Is there a problem with continuing to use that small bushing? I realize that the expander ball pushes it back out so it can't be smaller than that right?

I had some RP brass come out that same way the other night. Darker yellow, wasn't pleased with it. Put it in the ultrasonic for a few rounds and when it was done it was back to shiny. I was experimenting with the amount of LemiShine and think that is what caused my problem or handling the brass with greasy fingers(was working on a vehicle sometime during the day I think). I also rinsed with cold water and didn't rinse as much as I normally do. Usually hot water, stir the brass around in the barrel with a rubber glove until water is mostly clear. Then drain, rinse, drain, rinse, etc. I did cold water and everything went south. Could be high minerals in my water too. Definitely will go back to the recommended amounts for the Rebel.

I changed out to a tighter bushing to increase the tension on the bullet. That certainly helped bring the ES and SD down.

I have an issue Im trying to chase down. I havent shot for group size since the beginning of last season. Ive changed a few things so I wanted to see where I was. Changing the bushing to a tighter size nearly cut the SD in half. and reduced the ES by a third. But now my group has opened up!!! Using the stainless steel media, new bushing, I am getting slightly slower MV; Like 30 fps slower. I would never had thought that with the tighter bushing but none the less. I guess I need to start over with load work up. The new mv is 2776. the old one is 2801. I feel like I need to just keep adding till I cross that threshold.

A good run with "untreated corn cob" will put the shine back on your brass.