need to rework loads after ptg bolt head?

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08-24-2016, 04:50 PM
Wide Glide

need to rework loads after ptg bolt head?

considering buying a ptg bolt head for my savage .223 because i've got cratering with just over book starting loads. it doesnt seem to effect performance and doesnt start piercing primers any sooner than i would expect from any other rifle. problem is i like using the first signs of cratering as a sign that i am reaching the upper levels of the safety window. at this point it seems to just be cosmetic but it bugs me.

i've never worked up a load for a rifle then changed things so im worried that if i change the bolt face, the loads i've worked up will need to be redone from the ground up. is that likeley?

i believe this photo will show what im talking about. the rows from top to bottom start from book starting to book mid loads in 0.3gr increments. the cratering stays looking this way untill just over book max where it starts piercing like would be expected

https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8388/2...06c59ebb_k.jpg
08-24-2016, 09:14 PM
foxx

I'm thinking you're way over pressure and replacing the bolt head is least of my concerns for you.
08-24-2016, 09:24 PM
Robinhood

What is the firing pin clearance?
08-24-2016, 09:31 PM
foxx

I am sorry.

I thought you were starting "just over book" and going up from there, thinking it was okay to exceed max charges as long as you don't pierce the primer.
08-24-2016, 09:48 PM
drybean

Looks like a normal savage bolt face to me, oversize firing pin hole or undersize firing pin
08-24-2016, 09:59 PM
Wide Glide

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robinhood

What is the firing pin clearance?

sadly I'm not sure. I am not familiar with how to measure that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drybean

Looks like a normal savage bolt face to me, oversize firing pin hole or undersize firing pin

yes that is what I was thinking from what I've seen online but I was hoping to fix it because I like to be able to use it as a pressure sign while working up new loads.
08-24-2016, 10:41 PM
Robinhood

Quote:

yes that is what I was thinking from what I've seen online but I was hoping to fix it because I like to be able to use it as a pressure sign while working up new loads.

Really!!!???
08-24-2016, 11:54 PM
Wide Glide

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robinhood

Really!!!???

Yes. I was taught to watch for cratering and to consider it an early warning that the load is bordering being too hot. Until buying this savage that has always worked well for me. I'm not trying to milk every fps I can just trying to put holes closers together. That photo shows primer cratering with charges from 22.5gr to 24gr. My nosler manual shows a 24.5gr min and 26.5gr max for my powder/bullet combo
08-25-2016, 12:10 AM
Robinhood

Quote:

Originally Posted by drybean

Looks like a normal savage bolt face to me, oversize firing pin hole or undersize firing pin

Pay attention to Drybean

I saw a guy at the range that would increase his load until the primers pierced. Then he would back off. He told me that was the way he was taught. Very confident he was. Then I showed him his bolt face and the firing pin clearance.

I don't think I have ever seen an accomplished shooter reference primer cratering as a sign of overpressure without firing pin clearance being an issue. I would like to hear BigedP51's input here.
08-25-2016, 12:36 AM
Wide Glide

I'm not saying I usually load until I start piercing primers then back off. Just that I've always backed off when I'd see cratering. Of anything else I've reloaded for I've never encountered cratering until I was approaching book max.

Worst case scenario I can gather is I'm taking it too seriously and loading lighter than I could so I don't see what being cautious of cratering can hurt. I'm always open to learning something new though. I have no problem admitting I have a lot to learn and appreciate all the help I can get
08-25-2016, 06:09 AM
JW

Here is some good information on your issue
Long read but worth it
Page 2 has some good pics
Jack

http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...er-Blanking%85
08-25-2016, 06:14 AM
Mozella

Don't forget to re-set your headspace when you change bolt heads. It's easy, but you need a go gauge, barrel nut wrench and a barrel vise. Plenty of instructions on the Internet.

Before you buy, ask around at the range to see if you can borrow the required tools. They're hard to tear up, so it's not unusual to find guys willing to lend them, unlike a chain saw or a girlfriend.
08-25-2016, 11:12 AM
earl39

HA I would loan my girlfriend before I would loan my chainsaw. But the wrench and gauges are loanable and the deed can be done in about 5 minutes including removal from and replacing in the stock.
08-25-2016, 02:07 PM
Wide Glide

Quote:

Originally Posted by JW

Here is some good information on your issue
Long read but worth it
Page 2 has some good pics
Jack

http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...er-Blanking%85

Ill get to work on that this afternoon. Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mozella

Don't forget to re-set your headspace when you change bolt heads. It's easy, but you need a go gauge, barrel nut wrench and a barrel vise. Plenty of instructions on the Internet.

Before you buy, ask around at the range to see if you can borrow the required tools. They're hard to tear up, so it's not unusual to find guys willing to lend them, unlike a chain saw or a girlfriend.

I've already got the tools to adjust headspace but Texas10 gave me another idea in one of my other threads. Me mentioned I could order a few new firing pins and cherry picking one that is closer to the size of the hole in my bolt face. I'm leaning this way hoping to avoid having to rework loads. The current bolt face is only a month or so old with about 300rds fired. The current firing pin on the other hand I'm unsure of, it came with the action and a .308 bolt face

Also for some reason my notifications stooped working this morning and when I try to check them via clicking the subscribed threads link it says I'm banned forever?
08-25-2016, 04:27 PM
LongRange

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wide Glide

Yes. I was taught to watch for cratering and to consider it an early warning that the load is bordering being too hot. Until buying this savage that has always worked well for me. I'm not trying to milk every fps I can just trying to put holes closers together. That photo shows primer cratering with charges from 22.5gr to 24gr. My nosler manual shows a 24.5gr min and 26.5gr max for my powder/bullet combo

am i reading this right? your loading BELOW book mins? if so not a good idea...just as bad and worse than OVER book maxs.
08-25-2016, 04:40 PM
Wide Glide

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongRange

am i reading this right? your loading BELOW book mins? if so not a good idea...just as bad and worse than OVER book maxs.

Yes I always start at or below book starting loads. It is a habit that carried over from pistol loading where extremely light loads that are just enough to to cycle are common. I have never heard of this being dangerous. Please explain
08-25-2016, 04:51 PM
Wide Glide

Google agrees with you. Apparently although extremely common with pistol loads it's said to be dangerous for rifle. Thanks for schooling me on that.
08-25-2016, 05:23 PM
LongRange

these are not my words but you get the idea here...

"When the powder level goes below the flash hole, the small hole in the webbing at the base between the primer and the powder. The flash from the primer can shoot over the top of the powder. Powder is designed to burn not explode. There are 2 theories about what happens when a gun blows up from a under charge, the first is the primer lights too large of a surface area across the top of the powder causing to much powder to burn at one time causing a catistrophic failure. The second is that the flame of the primer goes over the top and starts the front of the powder charge on fire and burns backward towards the bolt face reversing the intended shock wave causing once again a catastrophic failure. I say these are theories because they have failed to be duplicated in laboratories so can not be confirmed, but the experts say they have seen guns blown up from a reduced load."

also remember if your shooting reduced load and get a squib load(bullet dont exit the barrel)and you chamber and fire another round if your lucky your going home missing a few body parts or not looking the same....stick to what the book tells you until you know a little more about hand loading for rifles.
08-25-2016, 05:24 PM
LongRange

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wide Glide

Google agrees with you. Apparently although extremely common with pistol loads it's said to be dangerous for rifle. Thanks for schooling me on that.

your google foo is strong grass hopper.
08-25-2016, 10:51 PM
Wide Glide

tried measuring a few things with digital calipers

with my cheapo digital calipers im consistantly getting readings of

0.055 firing pin protrusion
0.069 pin
0.074 hole

so it seems the pin is right about where it should be so im guessing my chances of finding one big enough out of a few from midway wouldnt be the greatest. im starting to think that a new bolt head is about my only choice. that scares me because i've invested quite a bit of time working up loads with multiple bullets for this rifle and im afraid changing bolt faces will negate all of that time and money.

can anyone give me an idea of what to expect? what are the chances my loads will still perform the same if i switch bolt faces? i hs'd tight against the go gage originally so it shouldnt be hard to get real close. which would have a better chance of both solving the problem and having my loads still perform the same cherry picking from 20 firing pins or buying a ptg bolt head and trying to get as close as possible to the same headspace using go gage/or fired brass?

is this really something everyone just accepts and arent bothered by? besides driving me mentally insane it doesnt seem to be causing any problems right now.
08-25-2016, 11:34 PM
Steelhead

My savage 11 cratered any and all loads including factory.

Put int a PTG bolt head and all is good.

i didn't have to alter my load but did have to re do headspace.
08-26-2016, 01:09 AM
sharpshooter

Before you commit to a new bolt head, I would re-contour the firing pin tip to a less than full radius and reset the protrusion to .035".
08-26-2016, 01:45 AM
Wide Glide

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Before you commit to a new bolt head, I would re-contour the firing pin tip to a less than full radius and reset the protrusion to .035".

That was mentioned in the thread I was linked to but I didn't understand how it needed to be reshaped from what was posted
08-26-2016, 11:33 PM
sharpshooter

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48...ringpintip.jpg
08-26-2016, 11:48 PM
Wide Glide

Now that makes it simple enough even for me.. I'll get to work on that asap and try to get to the range mon/Tues. Thanks
08-26-2016, 11:57 PM
foxx

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Before you commit to a new bolt head, I would re-contour the firing pin tip to a less than full radius and reset the protrusion to .035".

I don't know how a different bolt head would solve the problem, though it might. I can see how sharpshooter's solution would be less "destructive" to the primer. and certainly cheaper.

Besides, he's the man. Don't disregard anything he suggests about anything Savage.
08-27-2016, 04:36 PM
Wide Glide

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharpshooter

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48...ringpintip.jpg

i havent got to set protrusion yet its still at 0.051 but im curious if i've got the profile close to what it should be? i took quite a bit off and dont want to go too far

https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8400/2...1b03649b_c.jpg
08-27-2016, 05:05 PM
Robinhood

The drawing implies that the firing pin in the fired position should be maximum diameter at the face of the bolt head. If I understand his contributions correctly, Fred asserts that anything more than .035 travel is wasted and is stopped prior to bottoming out and before the firing pin has met full travel. Not an expert but there may be a deeper lesson on primer ignition consistency in his post.
08-27-2016, 07:01 PM
airb080

I noticed that you are using Winchester brass, how many loads do you have on them. I had a similar issue with my old model 110 in 30-06 with Winchester after about 4 reloads on the brass. The primer pocket started to get loose, and started to crater. I was using the same load nothing different. My RP brass is running at 10 loads and is still good, and my nosler is on it 6th load and no cratering. Have you tried using a different brand of brass? Just a suggestion before you go and tear your gun apart.
08-27-2016, 07:26 PM
Wide Glide

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robinhood

The drawing implies that the firing pin in the fired position should be maximum diameter at the face of the bolt head. If I understand his contributions correctly, Fred asserts that anything more than .035 travel is wasted and is stopped prior to bottoming out and before the firing pin has met full travel. Not an expert but there may be a deeper lesson on primer ignition consistency in his post.

unless I'm mistaken wouldn't that be done when setting protrusion? As I mentioned I haven't set protrusion yet, I was planning to do that after getting the shape right. Was I supposed to set protrusion first?

Quote:

Originally Posted by airb080

I noticed that you are using Winchester brass, how many loads do you have on them. I had a similar issue with my old model 110 in 30-06 with Winchester after about 4 reloads on the brass. The primer pocket started to get loose, and started to crater. I was using the same load nothing different. My RP brass is running at 10 loads and is still good, and my nosler is on it 6th load and no cratering. Have you tried using a different brand of brass? Just a suggestion before you go and tear your gun apart.

brand new win brass. Even with used win brass in other I haven't had issues until 6+ firings and a small base body die would buy me another 3 or so before I would toss them. That was with very light loads of course
08-28-2016, 12:38 AM
sharpshooter

You have to set the protrusion after the tip has been reworked, because you will lose a little once the tip has been re-contoured. Every quarter turn on the cocking piece is equal to .009". The firing pin will only penetrate the primer .025", so I always give slightly more for differences in headspace, .035" is enough for full ignition. Reducing the protrusion from the usual .055" will give you .020" more firing pin travel.
08-28-2016, 12:50 AM
Wide Glide

Would you say this shape is about ready to start adjusting protrusion or flatten it more first?

https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8400/2...1b03649b_c.jpg
08-28-2016, 07:54 AM
LongRange

i did two firing pins like this....this was a short action bolt...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1454250980.jpg

this was a long action bolt...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1454184558.jpg

i did mine backwards from what Fred is saying...i set the protrusion to .025-.030 and worked with the pin until the tip filled up the hole in the bolt head as much as it could with and then adjusted the protrusion to .030 and fine tuned the tip....take your time go slow and check often.

the short action bolt ended up at a final pin protrusion of .019 and the long action was .022 but i size my brass to fit tight in my chamber.
08-28-2016, 10:47 AM
Robinhood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wide Glide

unless I'm mistaken wouldn't that be done when setting protrusion? As I mentioned I haven't set protrusion yet, I was planning to do that after getting the shape right. Was I supposed to set protrusion first?

My point was that you do not want your radius to go down the side of the pin more than the protrusion as the diameter of the pin at the boltface will be reduced and primer cratering will again be an issue.