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Used a Go gauge and everything is fine. If I put in a empty case (6.5Grendel) the case stays in the chamber, and I just tip up the rifle and the case falls out ?
Did I do something wrong ? The cases are brand new Lapua and they look great.
Again, the No Go won't even let me start to close the bolt, the Go gauge closes the bolt just fine.
wll
Did you install a new barrel?
The bolt should close on the Go Gauge, and not fully close on the No-Go gauge. Using those two gauges is how you set your headspace.
Your empty Lapua cases probably will not stick in the chamber if you have the bolt open. I'm not sure why you would want them to stick in the chamber with the bolt open.
I don't see a problem. Can you close the bolt on the new case? Does the bolt extract the case properly? If you answer yes to both of those questions why are freaking out and not shooting the gun? You're cooking with gas brother.
The cases falling out with the bolt open has nothing to do with the Go No Go measurements.
I installed the baffle washer when I head spaced between the baffle and the bolt face. Two days ago I installed the baffle washer behind the baffle and next to the bolt like it should be .... that changes the Go, No Go measurements for sure.
Will take the gun back to work on Monday and re set everything. I'm sure the head space has increased by .006 to .008 at least. I don't know how thick the baffle washer is.
All I can say is I'm glad I caught it, my first build I'm checking everything over and over to be sure it is correct, I don't want to endanger myself or someone else at the range for my not being cautious. Shooting is fun, but you can never be to cautious.
I will add : if I push the bolt against the barrel when I close the bolt, the cartridge will eject, If I just close the bolt, the cartridge won't eject ... that is telling me to much head space !
wll
No, don't want them to stick when bolt is open, I know now what I did, see my last post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beekeeper
wll
After reading this you need to see a gunsmith. The only way those washers will change anything is if you put them between the lug of the bolt head and the lugs of the action. The washers change nothing. The bolt head is held in place by the cross pin and the location of the bolt face is constant when closed. Please don't take this wrong, take my advice go see a gunsmith as this is above your experience levelQuote:
I installed the baffle washer when I head spaced between the baffle and the bolt face. Two days ago I installed the baffle washer behind the baffle and next to the bolt like it should be .... that changes the Go, No Go measurements for sure.
Tell me something…..When you set the headspace on this install, did you have the extractor and the ejector on the bolt removed? Or did you set the headspace with (1)the ejector AND extractor on the bolt? (2) Only the extractor on the bolt? (3) Only the ejector on the bolt? (4) Neither the ejector or the extractor on the bolt?Quote:
Originally Posted by wlleven
Dave
Dave, I had the extractor and ejector on the bolt ... but the gauges have a cut out for the ejector so that was not an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by davemuzz
When I opened the bolt the extractor was in solid contact with the bottom rim of the gauge and pulled it out, so it was not resting on the rim or anything like that.
After tightening the barrel nut down, the go and no go gauges did what they were supposed to do.
I can see by looking at the bolt and the distance of putting the washer in wrong area what I did. The washer and the bolt head were cammed in the receiver housing adding x amount of thousands gap to the head space gauge.
After all the Thompson Contenders I have worked on and all the other guns I have nurtured back to health, this was a mistake on my part, but I caught it.
I will fix this Monday for sure.
wll
How does the washer change the headspace? You really need to understand what you are saying. I am concerned when someone is clinging to such an erroneous belief.
Stangfish,Quote:
Originally Posted by stangfish
The only thing I can tell you is after I completed the head spacing, everything was fine. after I moved the washer to its correct position in back of the baffle and between the bolt, the extractor did not engage the rim of the case unless I pushed on the bolt and then it would engage..
We will see Monday, I have all the equipment and such. I'll keep you posted for sure. My office is a machine shop and the guys will help me if I need it, but I can see what I did .... if I'm wrong, I owe ya dinner ; -)
I'll post again on this Monday afternoon !
wll
I could be wrong on this one…..but I "smell" ejector as an issue when you set the headspace. I'm agreeing with the others in that the washer behind the lugs should not matter as the bolt lugs close and mate up against the inside of the chamber. So, it wouldn't matter how many (in theory…in practical terms it would) washers you put "in there", that would not change headspace.Quote:
Originally Posted by wlleven
So, I think the ejector may have been pushing against your go gauge when you set your headspace. Or the ejector perhaps pushed the gauge out to where it was some how cocked and set the headspace wrong.
If it were me, I would remove both the ejector and extractor and double check the headspace. Remove that washer first if you want. But then you will see if your first setting was on or off.
MHO
Dave
I agree, the washer changes nothing, for head space.
Guys, you all may be right, I'll remove the ejector and then give it a go !
wll
NO see pm
Pm must be a deep dark headspace secret know only to those who are gifted with the double secrete probation of "paid membership." Hey……I have a paid membership and I don't have no stinking double secret probation gifted nuthin!!!
But then….I am from Pennsylvania.
Dave
Quit your whinning Dave. I sent ice and snow your way and tried to send enough for you and your much better looking brother so you have enough to play in.
No secret just the basic stuff. The boss said i am not allowed to keep stuff like that from you yanks anymore. Something about letting you think you won. I really got to have a long talk with her.
First thing to do is REMOVE the barrel. With the barrel off the action, drop the headspace gauge in and measure the protrusion. Then drop a case in and measure the protrusion from it. The protrusion needs to be a min. of .125". It sounds like to me that your case is shorter than the gauge by more than just a few thousandths.
Yes Fred. I had been thinking the same thing. Unless he has some calipers and understands dimensions and their impact on headspace and brass size he is better off letting a professional mess with this. His experience is around two months.
We need to get this guy some assistance before something gets messed up. Wlleven, where do you live?
He's in Cali.
If the bolt won't close on a no-go, how can headspace be too long?
something else is at play here.
I think Fred hit it on the head.It had crossed my mind but the wave washer headspace connection had me in a whirlwind. If he has sized his case and not understanding the base to shoulder dimension when setting up the dies that may be the issue, just throwing something out there.Quote:
It sounds like to me that your case is shorter than the gauge by more than just a few thousandths.
got to remember he is using virgin brass and as such it could be short to start with.
This sounds like it could be a shoulder issue on the brass. OP, do you have a comparator where you can measure the shoulder on your brass?
He doesn't need a comparator...he has the barrel. All he has to do is what I said. I think the gauges are wrong.
You may be right earl but nowhere does he say virgin. He said new. some people size new brass like myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by earl39
Hopefully he has a set of dial calipers and knows how to use them...or a depth mic.Quote:
He doesn't need a comparator...he has the barrel. All he has to do is what I said. I think the gauges are wrong.
Your right stang but if the brass is short to start with then running it thru your die will not move the shoulder forward to its proper position.Quote:
Originally Posted by stangfish
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl39
...and could possibly move the shoulder back if the die is not adjusted properly. I agree.
If the new brass is short to begin with no amount of sizing will lengthen it.
[QUOTE=earl39;224040]Quit your whinning Dave. /QUOTE]
Oh come on Earl…..that's one of my best qualities!!! :) You did send me some snow…I went out hunting this am….I saw the little deer paw tracks so I know they are out there…..but I don't know where they are now. I hate when that happens.
Dave
(Whining about deer now)
Took barrel to work and tried the go, no go gauges again and everything was fine ....then started taking some measurements. OAL case length, body diameter, rim thickness etc, etc were fine. (basic stuff that really did not pertain to head space, but wanted to check it anyway).
HOWEVER .. the base to shoulder and base to neck were off by .015 or so ....... The die was off according to my measurements based on 6.5 Grendel cartridge specs.
I went and loosened the barrel and then put a new Lapua case in and started to tighten the barrel down, It went ~ 1/4 of a turn more than the go gauge did !
I lightly yet firmly tightened the action with a new case chambered in the barrel, tightened the barrel nut hand tight while holding the action so it did not move, and then tightened her down with slap of a wooden mallet.
The cases now ejects perfectly ..... and yes NOW the GO gauge does not fit, it acts like a NO GO gauge !!!!
Yes, .004 of scotch tape on the case head, and it is a no go !, I think we are good.
Sharpshooter ... You were right ! the gauges were wrong ... IMHO !!
Lesson learned ... If something is not feeling right, don't let it go and don't just trust that it will work, check and recheck.
If I would have let this go just because the gauges told me it was Ok ... who knows what would have happened.
Anybody want two 6.5 Grendel NO GO Gauges of different dimensions .. LOL, LOL, LOL
Thanks for all you input and support guys ...
wll
Tell me again how you came to the conclusion that it is the gauges that are off? From what I am seeing you head spaced the chamber off of the new unfired unsized cases and then called the gauges wrong. You implied that the cases where off .015 and that the die was bad. I believe everything is going to come together for you but I would like to believe that someone here can help you with how you come to conclusions with regards to head spacing.
I am not trying to belittle you I am trying to help you understand how to go about troubleshooting you issues when working on a gun that has 60,00 psi contained. Your first concern was a case falling out of a chamber by gravity. Next a washer that plays no role in the process was the culprit. Now this. I am more than concerned with your confidence. I like your attitude and tenacity for the work at hand but I believe you need to slow down. Contemplate the task. What certain information means and its impact on the solution.
Good luck and please consider getting an experience mentor to help explain some of the things you are trying to accomplish. Good luck brother and if there is anything you need help with PLEASE ask for more information and explanation. No questions are dumb...but sometimes answers are.
When I loosened the barrel and then put a new factory Lapua case into the barrel and tightened it down on the receiver, it screwed in about 1/4 more turn than when I had the GO gauge in. Having measured the Go Gauge and finding it about .015 longer than the factory Lapua brass.(1/4 exactly would equate to .0123).Quote:
Originally Posted by stangfish
If I would have fired the round and not re adjusted the headspace like I did this am, I would have had way to much head space as the cartridge was not resting where it should.
wll
That I understood. My biggest concern was how you determined that the case was not the problem but the gage was. I think you are correct in preferring that the case fit the chamber better than .015 loose. Have you compared the dimensions to a Grendel drawing? Did you size the brass prior to trying to use it as a gage? I ask for my own edification as we don't know if your die is a factor in the equation. And finally if you make the decision to not correctly identify the true problem that you "May" not be able to chamber factory ammunition, any brass from a new or different batch and you may not be able to correctly full length size any other brass to fit depending on if the gauge was correct or not..
Stangfish,Quote:
Originally Posted by stangfish
You may be very correct and that concerns me. I ordered some Hornady 123gr SST's ammo and it should arrive on Wednesday of next week I believe.
If they do not chamber, than the Lapua brass is to short ...... But I find that hard to believe .... But we will see !
This is a learning adventure for sure. My barrel is a McGowen, and they make good barrels and have a good reputation. I'm betting it is a gauge issue, if the loaded ammo from Hornady is OK, then we have the answer either way !
wll
But yet you didn't pull the barrel and measure the case protrusion? If the cases are short, you maybe headspacing off the end of the bolt. You need to determine what the culprit really is....a short case, a long guage, or even a long chamber. It could be a combo of everything.
How do you know that your Lapua brass isn't sized from the factory to stretch a bit as it's withdrawn from the expander in a sizing die? I would not rely on any manufacturers brass being within SAAMI spec to set a headspace with. With the liability laws the way they are, I very seriously doubt that BOTH of your headspace gauges are bad. Think about it.... You set headspace with the go gauge, and the no-go wouldn't allow the bolt to close. Just because your brass doesn't fit properly doesn't make the headspace bad. I really think you need to reset the headspace to your go-gauge, resize that new brass, stick two pieces of tape on the case head, and see if the bolt closes. If it does, just plan on fireforming that brass. Don't change anything else.
Wlleven
Where in CA do you live?
I live on the Central Coast, just north of San Luis Obispo, but will be in the Oxnard area for the next few days.
I agree with these guys, condemning your go gauge based on "brass" fit is not the most reliable thing.
First off, make sure the gauges are clearly marked for the cartridge you have, and that the barrel is clearly marked for the same cartridge.
I believe you said 6.5 Grendel?
Look up SAAMI drawings on the case and compare that you your brass, AND gauges. This is one of the reason I am SOOOO against guys preaching on here that tape on a cartridge case can be used as a no go gauge. It is entirely possible your gauges are off, but highly unlikely.
I once ordered a 2" fire hydrant water valve for my hydrant at my house. It was too big, but when I tried it on 2 1/2" pipe it was too small. A call to the company got them checking and they had a whole shipment (hundreds) of them like that. It did not fit any known metric size either. Point is it CAN happen, but you need to make sure. You need to have someone else double check your theory BEFORE ever chambering or firing a live round.
[QUOTE=handirifle;224479
Look up SAAMI drawings on the case and compare that you your brass, AND gauges. [/QUOTE]
Here they are.
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...%20Grendel.pdf
Bill
Those are the salami specs I used !Quote:
Originally Posted by BillPa
wll
Now I'm hungry.
It's your turn to cook.
Well, I'm having chicken...
Wlleven is having Salami...Quote:
Those are the salami specs I used !
wll
Who's is in charge of the beer?Quote:
Originally Posted by stangfish
Oh my Gosh .. LOL, LOL, LOL .....
Very funny, I should learn to spell ;-)
Maybe I used Salami specs instead of SAAMi specs, and that's my problem ... LOL, LOL, LOL
wll
It better be good beer….no cheap stuff.
Well I just got some Hornady 123gr A-Max 6.5 grendel ammo in.
I set my barrel in a wooden vice block and locked her down ... I then chambered a round of the brand new Hornady factory ammo ... It chambered just great, and ejected just perfectly !
After doing this and chambering the Lapua, it is quite obvious the gauge was over sized. Yes, I tried to chamber the GO gauge again today and no way it fits.
I will be sending the GO, NO GO gauges back, along with a phone call right after I get through with this post !
If weather permits I will test her out this weekend and give back velocity reports with this factory ammo.
wll
After I posted this I called the company that I purchased the gauges from, they were very nice and then gave me the # of the manufacturer of the gauges.Quote:
Originally Posted by wlleven
I called and had a nice conversation with the owner. I will be sending the gauges back, along with a few Lapua cases and a couple of Hornady factory rounds.
He was interested to see what is going on ..... so am I
I will keep you posted for sure !
wll
I am interested in who the manufacturer is. If it is DK from PTG I am shocked that both gauges are incorrect.