22 Long Snapper

OK, I've kinda been down this road before, but not with this round. My goal, is basically a reloadable version of the 22 WMR, BUT in centerfire. Thus the reloadable part. I have no desire to try and reload rimfire cases, at all. My reason, is today while at a local Big 5 store, was pricing 22 WMR ammo, and the prices varied from $15 to 18 for a box of 50.

Now I know there are cheaper sources, online, but they add ridiculous shipping fees, well over actual cost. With the components as cheap as they are, I could reload something like the Long Snapper for pennies. I also know the above round is rimmed, and won't feed in the Savage.

For those like me, that had never heard of it before today, here is a pic.

http://photos.imageevent.com/cas6969...2lineupWEB.jpg

As you can see it is very close in size to the smaller magnums, and load data I have dug up show a 40gr bullet at around 2000fps, right there with the 22 WMR.

Some questions.

Anyone have any experience with this round?
Would this work as a single shot, in a Savage SA?

On the other side of things;
Picture courtesy of Steves pages http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd22hornet.jpg
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd22hornet.jpg

Looking at the base end of the cartridge (22 Hornet) which seems to be the parent cartridge of the Long Snapper, could a rim be machined SAFELY into the base or would that make it too thin around the primer area?

If the above idea is not a good one, would the Savage bolts work with the rimmed case, to just eject it?

This round in 17 or 22 cal, being reloadable, would be ideal, for me.

Before you ask, my other options are 22LR, a little under powered for the 100-125yd shots (ground squirrels are the main target), although perfectly fine for the 50 and under.
Going the other direction, the 223 I have is a bit much in the noise dept. I live rural, but do not want something as loud as the 223 blasting away. In addition, I have tried reduced loads, close to the WMR, but they seem wildly inaccurate. This I assume is because of the greatly reduced loads, not providing consistent burns inside the case.
I fell the 22 Hornet would still be too much for my needs as well, so the Savage 25 is out.


I would rather buy a barrel, dies, and brass and redo a current rifle, than buy another one.

One other question, who would I contact, about possibly a special run of brass, ie. a rimmless version of the Long Snapper?

What about a 5.7 X 28? Anything wrong with that round? It's rimless, centerfire, and reloadable.

If you are going to go with a "Wild" Wildcat, then why not do something like a Snapper, but based on the 221-FB Case, or even simpler why not a 221-FB?

Boots,
I think the FB case.(shortened 223) would be too much. case capacity, even shortened to the slightly over 1" as the others are. The dia is considerably greater. Not looking for ultra high velocity, 2000-2200 for a 35-40gr will suit me fine. Muzzle blast with this case would be getting a bit too much I am afraid. The 22 WMR is absolute max I want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cgeorgemo

What about a 5.7 X 28? Anything wrong with that round? It's rimless, centerfire, and reloadable.

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Darn good question! I wonder some things about this case. Could one use .223 dia bullets in it, for selection and cost savings? Could a Savage bolt head be made to use one it?

If I read these case dimensions correctly, the ID for the neck is .224. http://ammoguide.com/?catid=253, does that mean the .224 bullets would work, or is it too large given the .224 bullets seem to fall into the 5.56 size?

Boots,
Of course, looking at the 22 Rem Jet, it is sloped enough that it might pretty well be close in capacity to what I want. Am wondering if one could use the 22 Jet dies, to form a trimmed 223 case?

Looking at these dimensions

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd22remingtonjet.jpg

The base, just ahead of the rim, is .379, while the 223 is .375. So this might preclude the use of the Jet dies. They might not resize the base enough for smooth chambering.

Thoughts?

.22 Remington Jet? Thinking about another rimmed cartridge?

For the 5.7x28 the link you posted says .224 bullets under "Specifications".
I wonder about the velocity you'd get out of a rifle. Pistols are getting over 2000 fps...

The 5.7x28 has an odd sized casehead though. Don't know if you can find a Savage bolthead to accommodate it.

The .22 Tuason Craig Micromagnum (TCM) would fit the bill but sizing dies and reamers may be hard to find and expensive.

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/ai.cgi?...opZn&catid=834

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Originally Posted by handirifle

Could a Savage bolt head be made to use one it?

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This to me is the real question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cgeorgemo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by handirifle

Could a Savage bolt head be made to use one it?

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This to me is the real question.

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Precisely why I recommended a rimless cartridge with a standard .378" rim diameter.

Can you guy who aren't subscribed to Ammoguide use the link I provided? Just curious.

Yes the link worked for me.
I like the look of the TCM but are dies available for it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cgeorgemo

.22 Remington Jet? Thinking about another rimmed cartridge?

Nope, this was at the bottom of that post "form a trimmed 223 case?"
but should have said FROM a trimmed 223 case, thus rimless.

For the 5.7x28 the link you posted says .224 bullets under "Specifications".
I wonder about the velocity you'd get out of a rifle. Pistols are getting over 2000 fps...

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Duh! Missed that. Reading on the fiveseven forum, most guys there are scared to reload the little round, cause the pressure spikes are kinda out of control, at least most say that.

You can get loaded .22 TCM ammo here.

http://www.advancedtactical.com/adva...mart&Itemid=53

Someone must be making reamers for this cartridge as RIA (ARMSCOR) is selling pistols chambered for it.

Like I said though, getting dies and a reamer is probably going to be expensive.

Dave Kiff at PTG will grind reamers for both the chamber and the dies and RCBS will make the dies if you want to spend the money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nsaqam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cgeorgemo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by handirifle

Could a Savage bolt head be made to use one it?

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This to me is the real question.

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Precisely why I recommended a rimless cartridge with a standard .378" rim diameter.

Can you guy who aren't subscribed to Ammoguide use the link I provided? Just curious.

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I am not subscribed, but the link worked fine. I think all we lose is the load data.

That round looks interesting, very much like a shortened 223 case, just a slightly narrower base and rim dia with .373 vs .378.

Yes, I also missed the fact that these are pistol velocities, wonder how much more it would be in a rifle barrel? I doubt it would gain more than 100-200fps due to the small case capacity. Heck, there are some cases when the barrel is long enough, it actually SLOWS the bullet, since powder long since quit burning and barrel friction comes into play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nsaqam

You can get loaded .22 TCM ammo here.

http://www.advancedtactical.com/adva...mart&Itemid=53

Someone must be making reamers for this cartridge as RIA (ARMSCOR) is selling pistols chambered for it.

Like I said though, getting dies and a reamer is probably going to be expensive.

Dave Kiff at PTG will grind reamers for both the chamber and the dies and RCBS will make the dies if you want to spend the money.

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Yea there IS a limit, on what I will spend, for sure. It doesn't have to happen all at once though. Ammo cost is more than the WMR, but being reloadable, I should get at least 6-8 reloads from the cases, if pressures are kept low. With only 6 reloads, that brings brass cost to around .09c ea. Then of course there are bullets, primer and powder.

I will have to look around about the dies and reamers. I wonder if 223 brass could be resized successfully to use in that chamber? Of course that would involve the brass forming dies then, adding to the cost.

OK did some more reading on the little TCM, and it is made from formed 223 brass, even has the same 23 deg shoulder. So a shortened set of 223 dies ought to fill the bill. As for the chamber, a good smith ought to be able to ream the chamber, just by limiting how deep you ream it. Now I wonder if the brass could be cut and formed by using the 223 die, or if an intermediate die would have to be made?

This thing is starting to look doable. A decent .224 barrel is an affordable thing for sure, and even maybe a set of Lee dies to shorten on my lathe. Hmmmm


nsaqam
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

You can't just shorten the dies or short ream the barrel because the base diameters are the same on the .223 and the TCM.

Dave Kiff at PTG does reasonably priced work for your chamber reamer and CH dies can make make any die you want also reasonably priced.

Another option is to have Kiff make you a chambering reamer, chamber your barrel, and send it back to him to cut it a little smaller for your die reamer. Then get blank dies from CH and cut your die chamber. Polish it and have it hardened and you're golden.

Another die option worth exploring is to get a .223 Lee Collet die and trim the collet to the length required for the TCM. The only problem you may have there is if the TCM is so much shorter than the .223 that you'll have to trim the collet so much that you'll be up into the collet slits.
If it will work though this is a very easy and inexpensive way to get a die. You also need to make a spacer the same thickness as the amount trimmed.

I've modified several LCD's to work with shorter cartridges and it's easy.

Doing some calculations and you'd have to remove .704", call it .700", from the bottom of the .223 LCD to make it work perfectly with the TCM.

If you have a .223 LCD you could measure whether you can trim .700" off the bottom without getting into the collet slits.

If so you're golden and you'll have the superb LCD for your TCM for $25 and a little lathe work.

That TCM is basically what I was thinking with the short 221FB Suggestion. Looks like this could work. Keep us all up to speed. Curiosity has got a grip now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nsaqam

You can't just shorten the dies or short ream the barrel because the base diameters are the same on the .223 and the TCM.

Dave Kiff at PTG does reasonably priced work for your chamber reamer and CH dies can make make any die you want also reasonably priced.

Another option is to have Kiff make you a chambering reamer, chamber your barrel, and send it back to him to cut it a little smaller for your die reamer. Then get blank dies from CH and cut your die chamber. Polish it and have it hardened and you're golden.

Another die option worth exploring is to get a .223 Lee Collet die and trim the collet to the length required for the TCM. The only problem you may have there is if the TCM is so much shorter than the .223 that you'll have to trim the collet so much that you'll be up into the collet slits.
If it will work though this is a very easy and inexpensive way to get a die. You also need to make a spacer the same thickness as the amount trimmed.

I've modified several LCD's to work with shorter cartridges and it's easy.

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Please don't take this wrong, cause I really do not know the answer, but why can't I just shorten the die or short ream? Bear in mind that I have not measured the .704" from the bottom of the brass to see what the dia is, but looking at the pic of the TCM, it is slightly smaller at the base than the 223 case, so I thought it might work out.

What's the difference between std die and the collet die? Never used or seen a collet die.

Boots,
Yea I see that now. I will update. I may contact Lee and ask them about what the dia would be if .704 were removed. That would really be sweet if it were that easy.

The body/shoulder junction on the TCM is .367" in diameter while the same junction on the .223 is .354".
This junction would remain on a shortened .223 die and would also be present on the .223 reamer.

The LCD is unique among dies in that it uses a compressible collet to squeeze the neck around a central mandrel. This collet has a bunch of clearance around the body and the shoulder and the only thing it sizes is the neck. This is the reason you can use a standard LCD on the AI versions of the same cartridge.

Here's some pics of one I did a while ago.

This was a .257 Roberts to .250 Savage conversion.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_00468.JPG

A closer picture of the modified die.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_004711.JPG

Someone on here must have a .223 LCD that they could measure for you.

only have .500" from bottom of the die to beginning of the slits

Thanks Keeki, I was afraid of that.

How much would you need to shorten the 222 LCD? or the 22 Hornet LCD?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bootsmcguire

How much would you need to shorten the 222 LCD? or the 22 Hornet LCD?

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Excellent suggestions Boots!

The .222 is still a bit long but if the .22 Hornet has enough clearance around the case, the length works very nicely and you'd only need to trim .164".

Worth investigating.

The .22PPC would certainly work and would need shortened by .382".

Well in the interest of KISS (keep it simple stupid) what if I went with Boots' suggestion, and just shortened a 223 die, and short reamed a chamber? Make my own cartridge. Besides there is so much 223 brass floating around this country, the conversion would be even simpliler.

That way,I would have a true .378 base and the same shoulder as a 223. I do not need the extra case capacity of the TCM.


Is there something else I am missing here? Would that work? Heck I might even be able to ream the chamber myself, MIGHT., if it were a prethreaded barrel (I cant do threads).

Only thing I can think of that may need some thought is, will shortening 223 brass that much result in the need for reaming the newly formed necks or turning them. I don't know if that chore bothers you or not but something to consider. Would 221-FB brass be a better starting point? I don't know, merely throwing out what pops into my head.

Since a workable die is so cheap via the modified .22PPC LCD I'd say to pay Dave Kiff at PTG the $165 he charges to grind a reamer and cut the proper chamber.

But that's just me I guess.

No way would I short ream a chamber.

Have you ever tried cutting a hardened reamer die body? DOH!

No, but I imagine ginding is the only way, and thats about as precise as a shotgun for a sniper rifle.

I will have to do some investigating and calculating of measurements, and funds to see what and how this will develop.

Have received tons of good feedback here. You guys have heen wonderful.

I actually thought of a couple other branch ideas from this, one is to neck it (whatever IT becomes) down to 17 cal for a 17 HMR duplicate, and a solid brass cartridge with a .224 hole through the center, to a normal neck that can be resised, and load that too a 22 LR level. Once you had the brass, imagine off season practice with your deer rifle, for a cost less than 22 LR?

Of course there is the barrel cost, but still cheape than a 22, reloadable, and greater bullet selection. Switch brass and you have 22 mag power, without changing anything else.

Of course in ates where regs state rimfire only,you couldn't hunt with it, but the plinking fun and cost would be cool. In addition it would make a great training round for a new hunter to get used to the "adult" gun.

Just some thoughts.....

I will see if a reamer is available, and go from there I suppose. No sense trying to reinvent the wheel. I will also look into the possibility of finding reloading dies for it.

If anybody has dies for the TCM it will be CH.

www.ch4d.com

No dice, or is it no dies? ;D

Anyway I fired off a email to Lee, will see what that brings up. Sent one to PTG also.

Have you thought about trying one of these two options in a caliber you already have?
http://hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduc...le%20Loads.pdf
http://hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail%20Boss%...oads%20R&P.pdf

Yea I have done a lot of testing with the reduced loads and in my rifles (223 caliber), they shot more like shotguns than rifles. At 25yds, I was often getting 2+" groups. Never tried trail boss though. Wonder if anyone else has?

Just suggested it cuz my dad found reduced 4895 loads in his 6br and was really accurate. Just found the trail boss loads yesterday so I plan to try that out soon.

Ok that caught me off guard. Guess i missed the warning of moving the site. Whew, finally got back on. Anyway, back to the topic.
i did some reading and it seems trail boss has good results in the 223, so i picked of a lb today, and will try that route first. Seems folks are getting excellent accuracy with the 1-12 barrels and lighter bullets, but mine is 1-9, so i will try with several loads and bullets. Speeds are right where i want, so we will see. seem right

Sorry, haven't been ignoring the thread, but had to replace an axle on my trailer, THEN caught Strep throat. So now don't have the energy to do squat. More when am healed, I promise. I am REALLY hoping this trail boss powder does the trick. H4198 will give me the speed but accuracy, in mine, was horrible. Might have to retire the WSM is this works, or at least reserve to to "rimfire only" type of hunts.

Do you mean 4198 or or 4895? My dad is gonna go shoot a 4895 ladder in his 223 tomorrow. Trying 19-25% below max. Wants about 2900 with a 40grn. I'll post his results. He's been having so much fun watching squirrels fly w his 17 hornet he wants to see the hits w his 223 too.

Thanks for the catch, I got to thinking about that after reading an article on reduced loads, it was 4895.

Your dads accuracy might be better than mine cause I was looking for WMR velocities, around 2000-2200fps and was nowhere near full cases. It will be better for me, I think with Trail Boss cause its a bulkier powder.

However there is an article in the Nov/Dec Petersons Rifle Shooter magazine. He gives outstanding advice on using fast burning powders, other than H4895 and has great results with range data to back it up. Other powders are suitable, Hodgdons just doesn't list them cause they didn't personally test them.

Here's the 223 reduced loads with H4895 and a 40 Vmax.

http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/...1/be32ff86.jpg

Pretty impressive. Better than I got. What were the speeds of loads 5 &6?

Oh and what range was that?

Another option for you http://www.icpdleadersstatement.net/...ag-621540.html Reloadable 5mm brass

That was at 100 yards. Didn't chrono them yet, but I'm guessing around 2800. So a bit faster then u want.

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Originally Posted by Savage22-250

That was at 100 yards. Didn't chrono them yet, but I'm guessing around 2800. So a bit faster then u want.

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Yea the accuracy you got is nice, but a little too much speed.

Just thought I'd show you the results.