sticky bolt and pressure signs on savage model 14 270wsm

I bought this rifle new earlier in the year and finally got around to shooting it. Using 130 grain Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silvertips, after firing, the bolt is very difficult to open. It takes maybe 20 pounds of effort on my part to turn the bolt open, then a fair amount of effort to slide it back. The strange thing is that this did not happen on every cartridge but on each I noticed some tightness in the bolt when trying to eject a spent case. I have no problem closing the bolt on an unfired round or ejecting an unfired round.

Looking at the Winchester case after firing I see that the primer is flattened, there is a pronounced extractor mark inside the rim and there is a pronounced "wipe" mark in the case head stamp area.

I don't know if this is a problem with the ammunition or not. However, I just fired 2 rounds of a different brand (Federal Powershok 130gn) and had no difficulty opening the bolt with none of the aforementioned pressure signs, save for maybe a slight flattening of the primer.

Any ideas? I am thinking I should return the rifle to Savage. Unless Winchester has a problem with that particular ammunition.

Thank you,

Jack Adams

This isn't the first time I have read about Winchester WSM ammo giving high pressure signs.....some guys are getting stuck cases in addition to the pressure signs on the case.

I believe the WSMs are loaded to a max of 63,000 psi which would explain why in some guns there are issues.

If the other ammo doesn't give you the problems then perhaps just avoid the Winchester stuff.

You might also check the headspace by using some scotch tape. See how many layers of scotch tape it takes to prevent easily closing the bolt on a few new loaded rounds. Be sure of course to do this in a safe place / manner. Excessive headspace can contribute to brass deformation and primer flow issues, but is easily fixed on the Savage without having to send it back to the factory.

You may also have a COAL issue with that ammo.

Savage rifles tend to have much shorter chambers than, say, Remingtons. You might want to get a Stoney Point guage and see what the COAL is that puts the same bullet that Winchester is loading on their factory rounds up to the lands. Then compare this COAL to the factory ammo. If the factory ammo is less than 5-10 thousands off the lands, this could result in some of the pressure signs you're seeing.

Does Federal actually make WSM ammunition? It was my understanding that _only_ Winchester makes WSM brass, but that they put Federal's headstamp on some for them. Whether they make the entire cartridges or simply the brass is a different question, but frankly only 1 of those two options makes immediate sense to me.

I have had a recent experience that make me question the integrity of some 270 WSM component brass. I have no way to verify whether it's a brass issue, rifle issue, or load issue, though, because I'm forming it into .264 WSM so there's no factory cartridges to compare to.

I'd definitely contact Winchester, but I'd definitely contact Savage at the same time. Something's amok, and _both_ of the companies need to help out here, while at least one of the two companies needs to make a correction.

Another piece of the puzzle: I also tried Winchester 150 grain power-point with the same results as the 130 grain BST. The BST case is nickel plated the power-point case is not. If I chamber a spent case it is difficult to close the bolt and even more difficult to open it again. I have no problem at all with the federal ammo that I tried.

So two different versions of 270 WSM ammo from the same company cause the same problem. :-(

Jack

jladams,
I have had four WSM's (still have two), all 300's and they exhibited the same symptoms. Extremely sticky bolt lift with Win ammo, but shot fine with Federal. I think the issue is the Win cases are "short" to the shoulder creating quite a bit of headspace, combined with a stout load and maybe a lack of elasticity in nickel plated cases. When fired, the firing pin drives the case forward in the chamber until it hits the shoulder of the chamber, while the violent exlplosion of the powder ignition drives the casehead back to the boltface. Rapid and excessive expansion in lenght causes the sticking (that's my theory).

If you can, repeat your mesurements on before/after to see if it's a headspace issue, but you'll need to do two things:
1. deprime the fired brass - if your primer is sticking out a little or if you have firing pin flash around the pin strike, it can affect your measurement.
2. If you don't have a stoney point tool, use a deprimed fired pistol case (like a 40 cal) to slip over the neck so you are measuring at the datum line on the shoullder (about the midpoint of the shoulder), then zero you calipers for the length of the pistol case.

I often see 7 thousands length expansion on new WSM cases, and get some heavy bolt lift on first time fired cases (they come short from the factory), but they shoot great second time through the reloading cycle, after sizing to correct headspace in my dies....

In factory ammo, they're loaded stiff..... And you may want to stay away from the nickel plated stuff - the case is not as elastic as brass.
Elkbane

I think Norma makes WSM brass and the Federal brass is quite possibly Norma brass with Federal headstamp.

Win brass is quite hard and the Federal brass is softer, I don't think the Federal brass is made by Winchester.

Also, try this, it is good advice, I have a couple of WSM also ...

Quote:

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You might also check the headspace by using some scotch tape. See how many layers of scotch tape it takes to prevent easily closing the bolt on a few new loaded rounds. Be sure of course to do this in a safe place / manner. Excessive headspace can contribute to brass deformation and primer flow issues, but is easily fixed on the Savage without having to send it back to the factory.

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More Info:

I looked closely at the Winchester Brass from the 150 grain factory load. Every case shows where the case neck has been engraved by the rifling. This would explain why it is so hard to open the bolt and eject a fired case. Also, the nickel plated cases from the 130 grain ballistic silvertip factory rounds show a small ring around the end of the case neck that looks like it has been slightly crimped.

The federal cases show now such problem.

In measuring the length of the cases they are all in spec prior to being fired.

I am sending a sampling of theses cases to Savage when I return the rifle.

Any ideas why the case neck would extend into the rifling after being fired?

Jack

The case neck DOES NOT extend into the rifling, period. What you are seeing is the interuptions of the crimp.
What you have are hot loads, very common in WSM calibers. It can be caused by the bullet seating length difference between the different brands. There is nothing wrong with the rifle, it's the ammo.

Savage uses the 130 grain Ballistic Silvertip for testing in the 270 WSM. Do you think they would have noticed the tight bolt and pressure signs on the ammo at that time?

Jack

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

The case neck DOES NOT extend into the rifling, period. What you are seeing is the interuptions of the crimp.
What you have are hot loads, very common in WSM calibers. It can be caused by the bullet seating length difference between the different brands. There is nothing wrong with the rifle, it's the ammo.

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You should see these cases. You can clearly see the groove in the case neck exactly match the rifling.

Post some pictures of it.

Unless someone rifled your throat, there is no way the rifling in the bore can touch the case neck. Think about it - there's 3/8 inch (at minimum) of bullet bearing surface between the end of the case and the start of the lands. In order for the case neck to reach the lands, you'd have to drive that 3/8" of bullet into the lands when you close the bolt. You'd definately feel that. It would take a jackhammer to close the bolt. And the pressures would be so high when you touched that one off, that you wouldn't get a chance to do it twice.
ELkbane

good point. u are correct i am sure. i will try to post some pics though later tonight when i get out of my stand. i suppose i could just shoot federal ammo until i start loading for this gun. i have it boxed up but have not actually returned it for service yet.

Tried the tape method. It took 6 layers of tape accounting for 0.014". I measured the thickness of the tape by measuring COAL before and after applying the tape. I then measured the thickness of the tape in those 6 layers after peeling them off as 1 piece from the case head and got the same 0.014" measurement.

I could still close the bolt on the Winchester nickel cases but it offered moderate resistance. I tried this amount of tape on the federal cases and it was somewhat more difficult to close the bolt than with the winchester rounds. I did this on unfired rounds only.

Is this too much headspace or is it about right?

Jack

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Too may Savages, is that possible?

This isn't the first time I have read about Winchester WSM ammo giving high pressure signs.....some guys are getting stuck cases in addition to the pressure signs on the case.

I believe the WSMs are loaded to a max of 63,000 psi which would explain why in some guns there are issues.

If the other ammo doesn't give you the problems then perhaps just avoid the Winchester stuff.

You might also check the headspace by using some scotch tape. See how many layers of scotch tape it takes to prevent easily closing the bolt on a few new loaded rounds. Be sure of course to do this in a safe place / manner. Excessive headspace can contribute to brass deformation and primer flow issues, but is easily fixed on the Savage without having to send it back to the factory.

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[quote=Elkbane ]
Post some pictures of it.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

Here are a few pics. You can see what I thought might have been rifling marks on the end of the case neck in one of the pics. I also posted a pic of all three case heads together as well as a pic of the case head of the case I had to tap out.

Jack

Dwm is right, Norma does list WSM brass, at least 270 and 300 (but not 7mm??).

I won't comment on whether that amount of tape headspace is 'proper' or not, but what I'm reading doesn't make sense to me:

Back up the thread to your measurements, you measured the Federal cartridges to be much shorter to the shoulder than the Winchesters (0.011" shorter un-fired), but you're also saying that the same amount of tape on each cartridge makes the Federals harder to close the bolt on. That doesn't make sense. Did you list and label the measurements correctly? Is any tape hanging over the edge onto the body of the cartridge?

Your pictures reveal that the marks you're seeing in the necks are unquestionably what remains of the crimp. I didn't realize that Win put un-plated primers in their nickel cases. Never seen that before on any Win cases, and never seen any Win component primers that were un-plated. Is that one a reload?

A thing I can tell you is that, IME, WSM brass is _very_ thick and hard (I'm speaking of Win). Many times you'll get hard bolt lift when reloading too light. This seems backwards, but it's how it works and is to do with what stretches first and in what directions when things to bang. I'm not necessarily saying that the Win loads are too light, just hoping to make you aware for if/when you start reloading for this gun.

In any event, good luck getting help out of Savage and/or Winchester/Olin. IMO, it remains in question whether the issue is the rifle or the ammo.

On a whim I applied the same 6 layers of tap to the head of one of my Win 150 grain 300WSM XP3 rounds and tried to chamber it in my 300 WSM rifle and it is so tight that you can't even begin to close the bolt.

Curious.

Forget those measurements. (In fact I just removed them) They were taken improperly with bad equipment. None of these are reloads and contrary to your experience, all the factory win loads for at least 3 different caliber I have on hand have the brass colored (non-plated) primers. I do not yet have any dies for the 270wsm, so I reiterate, everything is new factory loads.

The tape was trimmed tight to the edge of the case head, none hanging over.

I do not have a good way to measure these cases. All I have is a good set of calipers and a bad set of calipers. (The bad set was used in attempting to make those previously posted measurements). Using the good set of calipers I can not find a significant difference, but I do not have a case gage. I will try to get some measurements with the "good" calipers I now have. I have a empty 357 magnum case. Can I use that to slip over the end of the case to measure to the "datum line" on the shoulder?

Jack

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MZ5

Dwm is right, Norma does list WSM brass, at least 270 and 300 (but not 7mm??).

I won't comment on whether that amount of tape headspace is 'proper' or not, but what I'm reading doesn't make sense to me:

Back up the thread to your measurements, you measured the Federal cartridges to be much shorter to the shoulder than the Winchesters (0.011" shorter un-fired), but you're also saying that the same amount of tape on each cartridge makes the Federals harder to close the bolt on. That doesn't make sense. Did you list and label the measurements correctly? Is any tape hanging over the edge onto the body of the cartridge?

Your pictures reveal that the marks you're seeing in the necks are unquestionably what remains of the crimp. I didn't realize that Win put un-plated primers in their nickel cases. Never seen that before on any Win cases, and never seen any Win component primers that were un-plated. Is that one a reload?

A thing I can tell you is that, IME, WSM brass is _very_ thick and hard (I'm speaking of Win). Many times you'll get hard bolt lift when reloading too light. This seems backwards, but it's how it works and is to do with what stretches first and in what directions when things to bang. I'm not necessarily saying that the Win loads are too light, just hoping to make you aware for if/when you start reloading for this gun.

In any event, good luck getting help out of Savage and/or Winchester/Olin. IMO, it remains in question whether the issue is the rifle or the ammo.

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The marks you see on the brass are from the factory. Just stay away from the Win. ammo and all will be well!

Tried to measure again. This time using a 357 magnum case slipped over the end. I measured 10 times, each brand, and the average was the same and the extreme spread was inside 0.002". Again, not the best way to measure anything, but the only way I have. The number I got was 1.786" to the "datum line" on the shoulder.

I also measured the case length from the head to the mouth and 2.090" for both brands consistently.

The only difference I could measure was COAL.

Federal: 2.643"
Win: 2.756"

I triple checked these measurements to make sure I posted them right.

Jack

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hogwackr

The marks you see on the brass are from the factory. Just stay away from the Win. ammo and all will be well!

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I do not see those marks before the rounds are fired. All I can see is a uniform light crimp on the case mouth.

Jack

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

This shows where the bolt is hitting when I try to close it. It happens when there is slight upward pressure on the bolt handle. Is this normal?

And the following is how the bolt face looks now. Not the ring around the bolt face where it looks like the cases are spinning against at when trying to extract them. Does this mean anything?

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

Another bit of info. The unfired rounds (both win and fed) in 270wsm chamber easily in my 300wsm. The fired 270 wsm cases will not chamber at all in the 300wsm. Why would this be?

Jack

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jladams

...contrary to your experience, all the factory win loads for at least 3 different caliber I have on hand have the brass colored (non-plated) primers.

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To be clear, I meant only nickel-plated ammo. Nevertheless, they must've changed their primer cups for the nickel-plated cases. I haven't bought nickel-plated factory ammo nor new Win primers in over 18 months.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jladams

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

This shows where the bolt is hitting when I try to close it. It happens when there is slight upward pressure on the bolt handle. Is this normal?

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I'm sorry, I'm not sure I quite follow. The bolt sticks in this place when you're trying to close it? That is, when you're trying to chamber a round? Or this is where it sticks when you're opening it? The bolt looks unlocked to me in that photo, and it looks like the bolt face is just about at the receiver opening. What am I not understanding?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jladams

Another bit of info. The unfired rounds (both win and fed) in 270wsm chamber easily in my 300wsm. The fired 270 wsm cases will not chamber at all in the 300wsm. Why would this be?

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Something's a bit different between the chambers on your rifles. Probably just a little larger chamber/body size in your 270's chamber vs. the 300, or possibly a little greater headspace. That would let the 270 brass expand a bit more upon firing, and prevent it chambering in the 300 thereafter. It could be other things, I suppose, but I'm thinking that's about the most likely thing.

As far as the crimp marks you're seeing. I cannot immediately explain to you why they look different after firing vs. before. Nevertheless, it is what it is. Those marks are relics of the factory loading operations. If that was rifling, then the crimped-in portions would be relatively narrow, and the un-crimped-in portions would be relatively wide. This is because the lands are narrower than the grooves in the rifling. Then there's that thing about how you wouldn't be able to chamber the rounds at all because you'd be pushing the entire exposed bullet bearing length through that rifling.

I still hold the opinion that it is not completely clear whether it's the gun or the ammo that's causing the problem here, but I've been wrong before and no doubt will be again many times. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MZ5

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jladams

...contrary to your experience, all the factory win loads for at least 3 different caliber I have on hand have the brass colored (non-plated) primers.

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To be clear, I meant only nickel-plated ammo. Nevertheless, they must've changed their primer cups for the nickel-plated cases. I haven't bought nickel-plated factory ammo nor new Win primers in over 18 months.
I should have been more clear myself. I am talking about nickel plated cases in ballistic silvertip loadings in .223 , 270 wsm and 300 wsm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jladams

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

This shows where the bolt is hitting when I try to close it. It happens when there is slight upward pressure on the bolt handle. Is this normal?

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I'm sorry, I'm not sure I quite follow. The bolt sticks in this place when you're trying to close it? yes, it sticks when closing at that point, It is hitting what I guess is the receiver but if I push down on the handle it will go in without more than a click there. Or if I push forward with force it will hit then rotate slightly and go in.That is, when you're trying to chamber a round? yes, when chambering or closing on an empty chamber.Or this is where it sticks when you're opening it? The bolt looks unlocked to me in that photo, and it looks like the bolt face is just about at the receiver opening. What am I not understanding?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jladams

Another bit of info. The unfired rounds (both win and fed) in 270wsm chamber easily in my 300wsm. The fired 270 wsm cases will not chamber at all in the 300wsm. Why would this be?

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Something's a bit different between the chambers on your rifles. Probably just a little larger chamber/body size in your 270's chamber vs. the 300, or possibly a little greater headspace. That would let the 270 brass expand a bit more upon firing, and prevent it chambering in the 300 thereafter. It could be other things, I suppose, but I'm thinking that's about the most likely thing.

As far as the crimp marks you're seeing. I cannot immediately explain to you why they look different after firing vs. before. Nevertheless, it is what it is. Those marks are relics of the factory loading operations. If that was rifling, then the crimped-in portions would be relatively narrow, and the un-crimped-in portions would be relatively wide. This is because the lands are narrower than the grooves in the rifling. Then there's that thing about how you wouldn't be able to chamber the rounds at all because you'd be pushing the entire exposed bullet bearing length through that rifling.

I still hold the opinion that it is not completely clear whether it's the gun or the ammo that's causing the problem here, but I've been wrong before and no doubt will be again many times. :)

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I am thinking at this point that it is likely that the rifle has a little too much head space and that maybe just screwing the barrel in a little more against a "set-to" gage or about halfway between a go and no-go gage, will clear it up. I suppose it is possible that the chamber is cut a little wrong, but I think excessive head space is more likely. I am absolutely positive that I could be wrong.

Is this a problem with Win. ammo? My buddy picked up a NEF 22-250 and came with a box of Win cxp1 40 or 45 grain hp's. As he was shooting I was picking up the brass and noticed extremely flat primers. I reloaded some of the brass and on the 2nd light load it blew the case head off.

You could see on some of the cases right about where they others seperated a slight pucker or bulge,I think the brass was destroyed by very hot loading from the factory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jladams

The bolt sticks in this place when you're trying to close it? yes, it sticks when closing at that point, It is hitting what I guess is the receiver but if I push down on the handle it will go in without more than a click there. Or if I push forward with force it will hit then rotate slightly and go in. That is, when you're trying to chamber a round? yes, when chambering or closing on an empty chamber.

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This is not proper function. You should be able to just lackadaisically or frankly even sloppily close the bolt without a hitch at that point. I can only make one of my rifles (Savages, I mean) give me a tick and slight interference there if I'm actively lifting on the bolt handle at that point.

I'd send the gun to Savage complaining about both the hard bolt lift with factory ammo AND the improper function/closing of the bolt. I have the idea that you're already planning to send it to them, so if it were me I'd add that improper bolt function to the list for them to fix.

Again in the interest of clarity, I wasn't suggesting that one of the rifles' chambers is cut incorrectly per se. Rather, it is probably simply looser than the other. It may well still be within spec, though. It could be outside of spec or incorrect, but I expect it's more likely just on the large side of the tolerance. OTOH, if the bolt isn't functioning correctly, and/or the receiver isn't cut properly (I don't recall just now whether the rifle with the hang-up is also the one with the sticky bolt lift or not), then who knows what all else may be incorrectly done?

A OTOH, if the bolt isn't functioning correctly, and/or the receiver isn't cut properly (I don't recall just now whether the rifle with the hang-up is also the one with the sticky bolt lift or not), then who knows what all else may be incorrectly done?
[/quote]

Same rifle. I did not think this was right. It is the only rifle I own that does this, and yes, I am sending it back. Had it boxed up but took it out for pics. I think their may even be a problem with the bolt. If you noticed the primers on the fired rounds in the pics, the firing pin did not hit the center of the primer. I don't know how far off center is acceptable, but it is further from center than any of my other rifles. (Tikka, Weatherby Mark V, Rem 700, etc,etc.)

Below is a copy of the letter I am sending to Savage with the rifle.

I purchased the above referenced firearm from .......... on January 4, 2009. I did not attempt to fire the rifle until just recently when I unboxed it, mounted a Kahles Helia CL 3-10 X50mm scope in a 1 piece DNZ Game Reaper base, and proceeded to break in the barrel following the procedure recommended on your web site in preparation for deer season in southern Georgia.
At first, during the “shoot once, clean, repeat” phase I used Winchester 270 WSM 150 grain Power-Point ammunition (x270wsm). I noticed that at times bolt lift was a little difficult and sometimes extremely difficult. I switched to Winchester 130 grain Ballistic Silvertip (SBST2705) ammunition and experienced the same difficult to lift bolt. However, I was able to zero the rifle with the 130 grain ammunition and even fired a 1.25 inch 3 shot group at 130 yards which I though to be acceptable for factory ammunition. However the stiff bolt was a concern. This problem seems to be getting worse as time goes by.
Later, during a hunt I fired a shot at a predator that was only 35 yards away. I missed high and attempted a follow-up shot, however, it took every ounce of effort to open the bolt and eject the spent case. I did manage to cycle the bolt and load another round which I then fired. That round was also very difficult the extract.
At no time has it been difficult to chamber an unfired round, however, the fired Winchester cases do not chamber easily and I had to tap one of them out with a cleaning rod.
I tried using Federal 130grn power-shok ammunition and I am able to chamber the round, fire it, then eject to case much easier than with the Winchester ammunition, with some resistance on the bolt, but not much more than I would expect. I have not attempted to group any shots with the federal ammunition. Also, the fired federal cases re-chamber with no difficulty, except slight resistance on the bolt.
One thing I would also like to mention is that while I was firing the 150 grain Winchester round, I noticed that one of the rounds had a jacket separation about 15 yards out from the muzzle; it still hit the target, but at impact it was slightly key-holed and deformed.
I have measured the unfired and fired cases as best I can with calipers and am unable to discern anything in any meaningful way; however, the COAL for the Winchester 130 grain round is 0.113” longer than the federal 130 grain round I used. I am not sure if the COAL is an issue as the COAL of the Winchester is 2.756” and the COAL of the Federal 130 grain round is 2.643”
Also, on the Winchester cases from the 130 grain round, there are flattened primers and ejector marks. On the federal case, the primers are slightly flattened but there are no other discernible pressure signs. Also, the firing pin is not striking any of the primers dead center, but slightly off center. Also, the bolt hangs up on the receiver when closing, even on an empty chamber, if there is any upward pressure, however slight, on the bolt handle. You will be able to see what I am talking about better than I can explain it.
I have only used new, factory loaded ammunition from Winchester and Federal at this time. I became more concerned about this problem when I read that you use Winchester 130grn ballistic silvertip ammunition for test firing in the 270 WSM.
I have been afraid to use this firearm since my experience with the predator previously mentioned and have resorted to using 300 WSM from a different manufacturer. I am looking forward to getting this Savage in working order so I can use it on a hunt, if not this season, at least the next. I am also looking forward to some range time with it.
Please inspect this firearm fully and let me know what the issue is. I am anxious to get this resolved, and I am quite disappointed that I will not be able to take a deer this season with my new Savage model 14.
You may contact me at:............................


Jack

UPDATE::

Savage is returning my rifle today. They said they replaced the bolt body and polished the chamber but did not offer further explanation.

Apparently there was something wrong with the bolt.

Jack

Fired it once, with the same Win ammo I had tried before. No more sticky bolt, no stuck cases.

There is a new thing though. The primer now has 2 really shiny marks on the edge, opposite sides and 1 mark is longer than the other. I could not see anyway on the bolt face that could cause this. Curious...

Jac

Sounds like it's going to work out but I thought I could add something. I'm shooting a Savage model 12 in the same chambering, it looks like mine is head space to same measurements. I have had the exact same problem you were having and I concluded that there are two things that contribute to the problem one being Win brass is to small and head spacing is a little long. I have only hand loaded for this rifle and have used Win, Rem and Norma brass. The Rem is the thickest and does not require fire forming, the Win needs to be fire formed if using hot loads or you will get the stuck cases. What happens with the Win is when you fire it first the primer comes back and then the brass comes back under high pressure with speed because the small case has no traction yet on the side wall of the chamber mashing everything back into place giving you the extreme pressure signs and hard bolt. I haven't changed my head spacing yet but have the gauge so I intend to get the head spacing down so the brass doesn't move as much from firing.
I saw you had some key holing with some 150's, you may not have a fast enough twist to stabilize some 150's, the 140gr bullets are really hard to beat with the 1-11 twist.