Working a hunting load 30-06 -Second Group-

Hello group,

The long story:

I am new to reloading. I have done a little of it but nothing intense. A coworker got out of reloading and I bought his equipment(read thread http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...c,44685.0.html if interested). Did a little reading here and there, put 10 loads together and manage to send them down range with no problem and got to keep all my body parts. Now it is time to get serious about this. Every year I swear I will start reloading but I find myself with no time. My resolution will be to work on these loads while at the deer lease. We have our own rage, right by the clubhouse so it should not interfere with the other hunting activities. It is 100 yards range.

What I want is to work a load base on the Winchester 30-06 Springfield 150 Grain Ballistic Silvertip which is what I shoot now. I get good groups at 100 and 200 yards on factory amo but we do have opportunities to shoot a bit over 200 yards so I am trying to work a load that I can get tighter groups. I do have occasional flyers on factory amo at 200 yards that would cause a miss. I have not used the chrono to make sure if it is the load but im fairly sure it is. My question are more into the practicability of working this load. I know each gun is different but im sure finding what is mostly used and start there will get me to better results faster... so lets start with the questions.

The short Story:

Working a load base on the Winchester 30-06 Springfield 150 Grain Ballistic Silvertip for hunting up the 300 yard range.

1. I have plenty of used brass (not all fire formed in my gun) but I wonder if im better starting with new brass. If I start with new brass I can save the step of full sizing all these used brass. I will have to fire form both or should I not worry about fire form for this load?
2. Seems remington/winchesters are the most frequently used brass. I have read about Lapua but the price seems a bit steep and since we are not building a load that will do clover leaf at 200 yards (that would be nice) it might be unnecessary. What do you guys use as far as brand for this caliber?
3. If I fire form I want to just neck size. I have a full size set dies, I will have to buy the neck size only die. Not a biggie unless I dont need it...
4. When I researched on how to build the load a couple of years ago I read about a system that required you to load 10 shells with the load ramping up. This system supposedly helped keeping the number of reloads down while searching for the general sweet spot of the charge. You were supposed to look for the 3 closer bullet holes in sequence and that was the ballpark to start tuning.
5. Do you start the loads with the bullet touching the lands or just .xxx far from the land then work the powder then play with land to bullet distance...
6. What is more practical, work the load at 100 yards or at 200 yards? Or should I work the load at 100 yds then fine tune it at 200 yards? I wont be able to constantly shoot at 300 yards until the season is over.
7. is my Rcbs range master 750 digital scale good enough to trust of do I need an analog scale.
8. How practically small should be my powder increments when starting to work this load and how small once I find "a ball park"?

Here is a list of the equipment I have, wonder if I need anything else. Have an order pending on midway, might as well get it all there..

Mtm case guard universal tray for all rifles shells and 38 to 357 pistol shells
Rcbs 30-06 LF size set of dies
Rcbs "RS" single stage press (when compared to the rcbs press I found online it looks like the Rock Chucker Supreme)
Lyman acculine reloading press
Lee powder measure kit
Lyman 500 scale (not working, wonder if it can be sent back for repairs or if it is even worth it.)
Deburring/reamimg tools
Lee powder dispenser
Lee loading funnel
500 CcI rifle primers
Case lube
Hand primer loader
Case cleaner hopper
Forester original trimmer kit
Knetik rcbs bullet puller
Rcbs range master 750 Digital Scale
Prochrono didital chronograph

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Books
Accurate Smokeless Powder loading guide - number one
Lyman 47th reloading handbook - new edition
The abc's of reloading by dean A grennell - 2nd edition
Modern reloading by richard lee
Speer reloading manual #10
Hodgon data manual 26 edition
Nosler reloader manual #3

1. always a good idea to use brass that you know. Never know how many times that brass has already been reloaded, and being new to loading you probably dont know what all to look for in used brass. you will still have to run the new brass through a sizer because alot of the cases get damaged in shipping and handling.
2. hunting loads will be fine with just about any brand case and I agree Lapua is pricey for hunting loads. If you mix your brass be sure to seperate them by weight, this will tell you the volume of the case. some cases are thinner or thicker which changes volume which changes pressures on 2 identical loads.
3. you can just back the full length die off a little and use it like a neck die, but Lee collet dies are fairly cheap and one of the best neck sizers out there.
4. everyone has their own way of doing it. I shoot groups of 3 changing load by .5gr until i get in ballpark, then I shoot groups of 5 changing .1gr until I find a sweet spot. then I start working my seating depth.
5. I start my hunting loads about .005 off lands and move it .005 at a time
6. 100 is more practical for hunting and takes alot of human error out of the equation
7. thats a good scale but I always have a beam scale handy.


these are however just my opinions. good luck

I appreciate your opinion. Reading your response I remember wondering how to separate the cases/bullets based on weight.... I mean, I know to measure it but how do you space the ratings? I dont remember what weights I used for the ones I did a couple years ago. 150 grain, will half a grain off be enough to group a bullet apart? is it a matter of percentage, a magic number, etc???

I personally wouldnt worry about the bullets for hunting, theyll all be close enough.

I stopped weighing bullets years ago. There close enough for hunting. I,ll sort new brass by weight. Example: put all 193,s in a zip loc bag. 194,s in another etc. I think weight sorting will help make an accurate load even better. I would not be concerned about loading close to the lands. Lots of clip fed and other rifles won,t allow loading close to the lands due to magizine length limits. I use win,rem and federal brass. Rather spend money on more bullets than on expensive brass. Just my preference. Nandy.looks like you have lots of nice eguipment to get ya going. Once ya get going real good you get hooked. The good thing is there is no cure. Have fun. Hub

If you are loading for a Savage, most of them like the 165-168 grain bullets better than the 150's.

So far 150 is working for me so I will stick to that for now. Anything is possible I the future!

For a deer rifle, I wouldn't worry too much about small groups. It's the first shot that matters. Put were it counts and there won't be any need for groups.

Having said that, we all like accurate ammo. Find the bullets that your rifle likes, learn how to use your equipment to make consistent ammo and shoot it a lot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nandy

So far 150 is working for me so I will stick to that for now. Anything is possible I the future!

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I do have occasional flyers on factory amo at 200 yards that would cause a miss.

I copied this from your first post, and you have me very curious about your possible contradiction. If you are indeed getting fliers that "would cause a miss" does that mean completely miss a deer? If so, that's NOT what I would call working for ya.

You ask for advice on loads and turn it down when given. There's a LOT of experience on this forum, but when you ask, make sure you really want it. The '06 was made for 165gr bullets. That is about the most perfect match up for long range (hunting) energy, and stability, and velocity that you will ever get. The '06 and 165gr coreloks will drop any animal in the lower 48, and then some. it would not be my first choice for a griz, but if it was what I had.....

My recommendation for the cases, is to fully resize every case. This is, as you specified, a hunting rifle, not a match rifle so neck sizing will really give you nothing, but the possibility of having a case not fully chamber, or be difficult to chamber when you need it the most.

To me, going from a 1.5" group with resized cases, to a 1" or 1.25" group (maybe) with neck sized cases is not worth the possibility of a chambering issue, when a hunt is on the line.

Now if this were a 22-250 and you were after prairie dogs or the like, I would say go with the neck sized. Then it would not be a big deal to set a tight chambering round aside.

+1

handirifle:

Fliers: Im guessing the fliers are from uneven loads from the factory loads. Curious thing is I never got a "flier" on the first shot which as mention before and I know is what counts when hunting. However, I want to find out what causes those flier as IF it is really the factory load one day it is bound to happen on that first shot. I think that if I am reloading, using my chrono and other QC measures I will be able to figure out if it is me, the load, etc.

About advice: I have shot factory loads on ballistic tip, silver tip, corelocks from 150 to 180 grains and I prefer to shoot the 150. It's just my preference and I feel very at home with that bullet hence the reason I want to start reloading with that load for hunting purposes. I have no problem having a member proposed I try a different load or even a different caliber. As a matter of fact, im planing on doing a lot of experimenting both in caliber and bullet weight but I have to start somewhere. Look at my response, I think it does embodied that line of thought.

Cases: I understand your point of view on resizing the case. Other than accuracy I thought it would make the case last longer but that thought might be wrong. You guys set me straight on that. I appreciate your advice and if like you say, if the improvement is not substantial then i will definitely full resize.

I will be posting my target from today's range visit on a separate thread. It will be a multipart thread as I work the load and ask for advice.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Bullet: Combined Technology .30 cal 150 gr Ballistic Silver Tip
Brass: Winchester
Powder: Reloader 19
Primer: CCI 200 Large Rifle
Savage 110 22" barrel Twist 1-10" A&B Sporter
100 yards range.

Shot the loads that I prepared the other night. There are 11 loads and they are listed in order shot with grain.

1 57.5
2 57.9
3 58.3
4 58.7
5 59.1
6 59.5
7 59.9
8 60.3
9 60.7
10 61.1
11 61.5

These are the results, problem is, I forgot the chrono... I know, dumb... So I know we dont have the entire picture here (so to speak).


[img width=600 height=450]http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn215/nandy_temp/utf-8BSU1HLTIwMTEwOTI4LTAwMTI4LmpwZw.jpg[/img]




I think Im trying to load 10 each of half way shot 2 and 3, 5 and 6 and 8, 9 10... Which will be 10 shot each of 58.1gr, 59.3gr, and 60.7. The chrono is in the car already.... ::)

How far out did you shoot these?

Sorry, added the missing info, 100 yards.

The targets are sorta confusing. Are you shooting one shot with each loading?

Yes, using the ladder system. one shot per each grain. Then look at the shots that are closer and start loading 5 to 10 cartridges per load...

Hope it works out for you. Might consider some H4831 with the 150g bullets. Sierra lists that as their most accurate powder with that bullet. They were shooting a 26" Savage in the tests.

I was thinking RL17 or 4350 in a 22" barrel

This is today shooting. I shot 3 loads, 58.1, 59.3 and 60.7. The first 2 were not worth their upload time but the last group, 60.7 was better, much better. Max load is 61.5 so I think im going to do 60.4, 60.7, 61.0 and 61.3. If I get good groups I will try 3 shots at 200 yards and will then set my scope. At this point if I can duplicate or better this groups I have no problem using this load to hunt. then I can keep working on it.

[img width=600 height=450]http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn215/nandy_temp/utf-8BSU1HLTIwMTEwOTI5LTAwMTI5LmpwZw.jpg[/img]

now, I took the chrono this time but it did not read all shots. It was mid day and I assume the sun did not help. It is the first time I have this problem. These are the numbers that I did.

2828
3777
3703
3777
2849
2842
2830

Now, I know better to believe I had any round going at 37xx fps. I know that is an error. No evidence of overcharge anywhere. I did not set my chrono right in place. I will make sure of that tomorrow...

My Savage 111 FNS loves these loads:

IMR 4350 56.3 - 56.5
168gr TTSX
one hole 3-shot group

RL17 51-53gr
180gr Accubond
one hole 3-shot group

As for the chrono speeds, if you have the Chrony, like I do, make sure it is opened all the way flat. I didn't check this one time when I was testing a brand new rifle and caliber, to me, the 280, and was overjoyed at the velocities I was getting. Then when I went to collect my chronograph, I notice it was not fully opened, nothing drastic, but looking at it, it causes the two screens to be a fraction closer together than they really should be, thus the faster clock times. I was bummed when I realized this and ALL my numbers were garbage.

I wasn't knocking 150gr bullets earlier, it's just you failed to mention that was the specific bullet you were goiong to use, so it wastes some of the peoples time with other suggestions.

I use a 150gr in my 308 for hunting, so I have no issues with that weight bullet.

Good luck on the next round of shooting.

Nandy if you havent gotten that rig squared away yet i was like you wanting to shoot a 150 grain pill. BEcause i had shot all sortsa ammo in my 06 with 3-4" groups at 100 yards so i decided to buy some quality ammo. Hornady light mag. 150sst's they are freaky fast and deadly accurate. guns killed anything its been pointed at. So i decided to try the 150sst's as a base bullet and work from there you may have the right powder and a bullet your gun doesnt like. sometimes its like that my savage doesnt like 168 grain hpbt's as much as 150 grain ssts i shoot hornady brass fired fitted to my gun with imr 4350 and cci primers. and it will lay 5 shots in the same hole letting the gun cool off its gota sketty barrel. try a box of off the shelf 150 grain sst light mag and see what it does may be suprised. my buddys 710 liked coreloks better they shot like a shotgun out of my rig. but just my input.

Thanks guys, sorry for the delay but I never got another email notification so I thought no one else had replied... Right now I got it shooting between at least 2 bullets touching out of 3 or all 3 very close. always all holes inside of the square inch grid... Need to post a picture...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nandy

Thanks guys, sorry for the delay but I never got another email notification so I thought no one else had replied... Right now I got it shooting between at least 2 bullets touching out of 3 or all 3 very close. always all holes inside of the square inch grid... Need to post a picture...

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Sound like your loads are consistent. Play with the seating depth just a little to see if the groups will tighten up, however, consistant one inch groups are not bad for a hunting rifle.

Ladder test are supposed to be shot at a minimum of 300 yards. Your 30xx recordings from your chrony were because you had it to close to your muzzle and the powder and muzzle blast made your readings incorrect. Notice how your 58.3, 59.1, and 59.5 shots all hit close together and right in the middle of those, your 58.7 shot waaay high. This occurs allot and is referred to as a scatter node. Generally your best shooting load will occur 1-2% above your scatter node. You can see this is true because your next two shots 59.1 and 59.5 go right back to the same point of impact and are basically in the same hole. Your best accuracy node will be between these two at 59.3 grains. I have developed many loads using this method (at 300 yards) and most of them will have very little vertical all the way to 1000 yards.

Thanks, right now im shooting 60.4gr. That is the load that is working good and consistently. I will probably leave it at that since im building a new gun and the 06 will be put away for some time. I did play with the bullet seating from touching the lands and moving away in .02 intervals (or was it .01 intervals) and touching the lands was the best. I also noticed that if I crimp the bullet then I can move the bullet seating a bit back and still have about the same accuracy. I tried several groups using the lee neck sizer and my groups were larger and the speed was slower. I guess that die is not holding the bullets as tight as the fl die set up for neck size only. Or, in second thoughts, maybe since that die wont partially size the body Im having a larger volume in the case, large enough to loose close to 100 fps speed... just a guess...

Anyway, unless I get really bored I am not doing anything else with this load. Saving the money and effort for the next cartridge.

Thanks!!!!

This is the typical landscape that I have been hunting the last 4 years.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...1113-00171.jpg

It is 300 yds to the top of the powerline, 200 to the 2 little pines just in top of the food plot and 100 yds to the begining of the food plot.

And when things line up correctly, this is what I see at the end of the hunt...

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...1113111042.jpg

The 2 at the left are mine. A button buck and a doe. the doe is pushing 100 lbs, the buck is way smaller. The doe to the right was shot by the son of the club president. he was about 600 yards directly south from me shooting a parallel shooting line. They mostly move on the creek bed that is about 70 yards in front of me. He was at the other end of the creek bed. They were bedded between us and head his way when they got up. The first one crossed in front of him around 8:30, he nailed that one and took a shot at the button buck but missed. Not 10 min later they were crossing in front of me. After being shot at no whistle or bleat call would stop them. I actually only saw the doe but when she slow down to a pace I nailed her at about 100 yards, she jumped, kick, bolted and headed north (right) to the other woods edge. I saw the buck then (I thought it was a doe) but no shot. I sat to wait then from where the hit doe went I saw some flicker and it was the buck heading west paralleling the power line. I pulled the gun and he made a mistake to stop to look back for the downed doe. That was my chance but I misjudge the distance and shot for 200 yds instead of the 150 he was... Still dropped on its track, not a single step...

The part that I will remember the most is the fact that for the first time I ever I did not crack the scope up. I always do that after I see the deer in the cross hairs. This let me see both deer get hit thru the scope. I never seen them, most of the times im cracked up and I loose sight after the muzzle blast. The doe was 30 yds into the woods in the briars thicket (of course). If you knew where to look you could see the buck laying down at the left right on the tree line where he made the mistake to stop.

Them loads did the trick, thanks for everyones help.

Some good eating in the back of that side-by side. I live in Mississippi, and we have alot of very similar landscape to your photo.