the model 12FV in .308 any more?
Im looking to do some long range shooting, 600 - 1000 yards.
I guess I can settle for the 12FVSS, but why no more 12FV?
Any noticeable difference between the 12FV and the 10FP, besides 2 inches?
Much Appreciated
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the model 12FV in .308 any more?
Im looking to do some long range shooting, 600 - 1000 yards.
I guess I can settle for the 12FVSS, but why no more 12FV?
Any noticeable difference between the 12FV and the 10FP, besides 2 inches?
Much Appreciated
Welcome to the site.
One word "sales."Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahbodyImportant
What do you plan on shoot at at 600 and 1000 yards? IMO is your just shooting targets a 243 win is a FAR better choice than a 308.
You can have the gun you want built through the custom shop at Savage.
+1 The 308 is the most popular underdog in history. It offers nothing spectacular and the only reason the military uses it is because of their automatic weapons systems. Even they have seen the light in regards to better ballistics and have massaged the 50 BMG to the new 401, as well as, adopted the new 6.8 SPC. It seems the wind that pushed the 308 this far has stopped blowing and now all of the blind followers are now upset about it. Finally we may get some common sense back in regards to the 308. The only reason for its success is because people continue to put in on a pedestal despite it's shortcomings. If you only use a 308 without looking at anything else than you will only have the 308 to talk about but those few that have ventured outside have discovered greener pastures and even fewer have ever returned.
I believe the finish is different: the 12FV is blued whereas the 10FP is matte black.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahbodyImportant
the 10 is blued at 24", the 12 is stainless at 26". I'm thinking about selling my 12FV barrel in 308, and putting on an aftermarket barrel. I'll tell you one thing, it shoots one-hole groups under 47.5 grains of Varget and a Sierra 110 Varminter HP. Holy Moley!
Kevin
The .308 win is a great round, certainly not the "magic bullet" but it's accurate and efficient. If you think the .308 is no good, I'd hate to hear what you say about the 30-06, 270 win and such. If you're talking high end target shooting only, then I can't comment on that as I've never gotten into that, but for 99% of the shooting population the .308 is a good solid round. ;D
The same goes for most of the other cartridges based off the .308.
While I am not a great 308 fan. We would not have the 243, 260 Rem and the 7mm-08 if it were not for the 308.
All 4 rounds are good.
Just my opinion. . Have a good 'un,thecyberguy
Don't forget the 338 Federal and 358 Winchester...just to name the last two factory cartridges in the family. I won't even try to name all the wildcats this cartridge has fathered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecyberguy
Kevin
Nothing wrong with the 308, Used one in service to take care of small problems at great distances. You need to take a look at the 6.5's [264]. Great round with out the hold over of the 30cal. Still have 308's but useing 6.5/284 mainly now
That's a pretty critical statement but short on specifics. What, exactly is wrong with the .308?Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Finlander
I agree as a specialized long range target cartridge it's been overshadowed by the newer 6.5 mm which offer equal ballistic coefficients with significantly less recoil but why the distaste for the .308 otherwise?
What is a good "economical" caliaber of choice for 600 - 1000 yard competition shooting?
I do not plan to handload, just yet. I have had good luck with the Prvi match ammo and can get that for $12.00 box of 20 (.308). This for me, is economical.
Any suggestions appreciated.
6.5x55 standard. Use the AMax or 142 gr SMK's and you are in business.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahbodyImportant
Another would be a 6.5x47.
I am not saying that you can't love the 308. What I am saying is people have a blind love for it because there are numerous cartridges and calibers that trump it in many ways. Like I stated, if you only use the 308 you only have the 308 to talk about. Defenders don't want to hear that there is anything better out there and are usually quick to jump to it's aid when attacked.
As a target cartridge it shows consistency, repeatability, predictability and has less recoil than an 06 making it easier to shoot well but is not inherently accurate. I hate that term and there is no such thing, it is a marketing term that stuck but isn't true of any caliber. I have shot enough different, "INHERENTLY ACCURATE", cartridges and calibers to say it is total BS! The 308 is not any more accurate than any other 30 caliber and requires all of the same measures as any other cartridge to be accurate. The 30-06 dominated the 1000 yard competitions long before the 308 was invented and the only reason it is used today is because of people putting it on an imaginary pedestal. If everyone is using a 308 caliber gun in the competition then the winner will be a 308 shooter and that is more fact than fiction. Its dominance is directly related to the shear number of shooters using it. The 6.5 is making a huge showing and is slowly stealing the spot light away. I would bet a weeks pay that a win at any competition has more to do with the shooter than his caliber.
I can see it as a target caliber but it is anemic as a hunting cartridge. I wouldn't build a 308 for hunting when considering all of the other choices available unless it was in an AR platform. The AR crowd is being sold a bill of goods with the 338 Federal because it doesn't offer any meaningful energy or trajectory advantage and unless you opt for the 225 or 250 grain bullets you don't gain any terminal performance advantage either. This is why we have never really seen any successful non magnums above 30 caliber because it really takes more steam to push the heavier bullets and only the longer/heavier bullets offer any better terminal performance. The magic of Ballistic Coefficients and Sectional Density. This reflects right back at the 308 when compared to the 7mm-08. The 308 only offers better performance over the 7mm-08 when using 180 and 200 grain bullets. Once we get into the 150 to 160's the higher ballistic coefficient and sectional density figures favor the 7mm-08. Then the 260 dominates with 120-140 grain bullets.
This does not make the 308 a bad choice only that one should make it knowing the limitations of it, as well as, the advantages of the other choices available.
Nicely said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Finlander
It sounds more like you feel as if you been "wronged" by the .308 at sometime in your life. ;D Every cartridge can be "trumped" by several others in some way, shape or form. It just depends what your personal prorities are. I don't shoot a .308 but I'd feel darn foolish to tell anyone it was a poor cartridge. As far as being anemic as a hunting round, that again goes back to your personal tastes. If you think you can't kill anything effectively with anything less than a 378 weatherby then yes, the .308 is anemic.
There are some who like "Pumpkin Rollers" and some who don't.
On the pain of "hi-jacking " the thread, being flamed , etc. ::) While I neither mourn nor cheer the exemption of the .308
I do kinda wonder why Savage did not add the 6.5x55 swede . I ll admit I am a lil biased as this is one of my favorite rounds .
???
Yeah...that's a nice caliber. You could always re-chamber a rifle in 6.5x55 Swede if you really wanted one. A friend of mine is doing this with a Stevens action.
:)
The 55 is best with a long action but the 260 would would have worked.
all info I can find say Savage has 6 2011 models coming in 260
Sales!Quote:
I do kinda wonder why Savage did not add the 6.5x55 swede
With all the marketing hype about the 260, 6.5x47, 6.5 Creedmoor etc. I think people think they are better than the Swede or that the Swede is some sort of antiquated relic of the past. Several years ago Col. Boddington wrote a piece "Cartridges We Can Live Without." and informed us all that the Swede was not worthy of our consideration. He didn't include the .308 in his list. Wonder why?
I bought a 12fv-.308 a few years ago. I love it for what I do with it. Target. But after I replaced the stock I have a bit of money in a stock rifle. If you want the FV and I say go for it, it might better to look at ones with better stocks. But sometimes wonder if should build a .243 or 22-250 for target, just to save money on powder etc...
i agree. im sensing alot of anger toward this cartridge, which seems unwarrented. the .308 is an excellent round and i have scored several of my farthest kills with one of mine. yes, there may be 'better' rounds out there, but who is to say that all the qualities of 'better' rounds are actually better? just think, out of my 18-inch bolt guns, i get 2650fps with a 168grn match bullet, which has been the bane of many a beast. (yes, i use match bullets for hunting. say what you will, but im a politically incorrect trophy hunter who likes to shoot small things a long way off and proud of it. find me at longrangehunting.com username Josh Wayner). it is part of the game to hit precisly, and to do that you need to know your rifle, no matter what caliber. without practice, your 6.5 supercartridge is nothing better than a rock in a sock.Quote:
Originally Posted by BradB
rifles chambered for this round can fire all sorts of ammo in emergency situations, from military FMJs to softpoints; the 308 is extremely common. it is advantageous to use a round for which there is lots of knowledge already.
Hey Bill, how about that 12fv .243 barrel I sold you? Does it still shoot those little bitty holes? I sold a .308 Tikka and replaced it with that .243. Now I'm down to the .22's.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbm
A 12FV can surprise you regardless of caliber. I got mine for less than $450 otd about 6 years ago. Lots of aftermarket options when you find a good shooting barrel/action. Don't knock any of the cheapo fv's. Lot's of caliber choices when you get ready to re-barrel.
Actually, in factory ammo, some can be more "inherantly accurate" than others. A case with a shorter neck can be more prone to bullet runout than one with a longer neck. The longer case neck is also less subject to knocking a well seated, low runout, bullet, out of that "perfect" alignment, when being hurridly chambered in a hunting rifle.
It's also been PROVEN, certain case shapes and designs offer a more effecient powder burn than other cases. that results in more consistant pressure curves and velocities, resulting on greater accuracy.
I really doubt there is much on this continent (or many others) the 308 will not topple with a properly placed, well designed bullet. Is it the best? Maybe not, but it's far from overrated or underpowered.
I would not want to be inline of a 165gr bullet fired from one, even at 1100yds. You'll still be dead.
Here is all I need to say about the 308
[img width=424 height=450]http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu340/OKIE2-photos/my%20guns/308Savage10shots.jpg[/img]
Assuming a hundred yards?Quote:
Originally Posted by okie2
you are right this was done on a very calm day no wind at all.
It really surprised me too is the reason I kept shooting the same target.
the rifle used was a Savage model 12 single shot 26" stainless fluted barrel
savage makes a 6mm br thats pretty nifty on the long range and also the big dog 6.5x284
The .308 is a great caliber you can get ammo for it anywhere in a pinch if you need to. Everybody likes there own thing. I will deffinately allways have one in case the world goes to hell in a handbasket just because of the surplus military ammo. My longest kill which wasn't long at all compared to most was on a 142inch 8 point buck at 240yards with a .308 But there are several calibers sitting next to my 308 in the closet and under the bed 17hmr,223,243,7mm-08,dirty-30.
Some would say that the 22lr is very anemic for deer hunting. That never stopped my grandad from using the cartridge though when he was a kid to take deer down. Shot placement is far more important than caliber choice imo.
OK & ?Quote:
Originally Posted by psharon97
I suppose if you love the 308 cartridge you would assume anyone who doesn't must hate it. That is not true, only an assumptions fueled by lust. ;)
The 308 was created in 1951, Nato adopted it in 1954 but Winchester introduced its very slightly different version in 1952 in their m70 and m88 rifles which has become a very successful commercial cartridge without any help from the military. Back in 1952 there was not much to choose from in cartridges so the 308 offered a tremendous bump over the 300 savage, milder kick over the 06 and because hunters were not velocity driven like they are today the cartridge was warmly accepted. The cartridge is still hotly contested today because it does offer some desired benefits but has been grossly outclassed in many others. Because we have such a selection today the cartridge shouldn't still have the same attraction that it does but will always have the virtue of being the parent case and enjoy the popularity benefits of being the older sibling.
The only benefit over the 30-06 the military received was a higher rate of fire in their automatic weapons and the fact that the military was so happy with their 06 they continued to use it up to the 1960's. The US didn't adopt the 308 until 1957 for the new m60 machine gun then adapted the cartridge for the m14 in 1959. The m14 had a very short service life and was essentially mothballed in favor of the .223 and m16 within only a few years. If it weren't for the m60 I doubt the US military would have adopted the 308 at all. Naturally the first sniping systems were going to use the 308 because it was what was available at the time but modern sniping systems have been adopting other cartridges for decades. The 300 win mag was first used in the 80's to extend the effective range over the 308 and now we have the 338 Lapua and soon the 6.8 SPC may be replacing the 223. So the military is only using it out of necessity not by choice.
The 6.8spc will extend the range over the 300 win? HUH? ??? The 6.8spc is even more "anemic" than the .308 ;D
Since the 6.8 is based off the 30 rem, I don't think there's anything revolutionary going on there.
And of course now we have lots of 308 military Sniper rifles being converted to 300WM.
O really? Which ones?Quote:
Originally Posted by nomosendero
The army is rebarreling some of our m24s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. YACYAS
What caliber were the m24's before changing to 300 mag?
M24 308 http://www.snipercentral.com/m24.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by okie2
Many are being converted to 300WM http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...?right=related
http://seanlinnane.blogspot.com/2010...0-win-mag.html
I'm perplexed at a couple of post that show such disdain for the .308. Calling it anemic as a hunting cartridge is just plain nuts, you may as well be calling the 30-06 irrelevant. The .308 has accounted for every major North American big game animal and was being used to kill the biggest Alaskan bears long long before the magnum freaks reared their heads. I have no problem with magnums per se and if folks want to use magnums and I'm glad that other cartridges are available but the .308 and 30-06 are capable killers in the extreme.
The 308 is a good round. In its day, it was still just a good round. It does not have the knock down power of the 30-06, nor its recoil. It does not have the distance or trajectory of the 6mm / .243 critical for a varmint round. It is just a good round in a world of readily available great rounds. It’s a jack of all trades but master of none.
If I owned only 3 different calibers, .243, .308, and 30-06 and was going hunting, the 308 would be left home more often. Going sheep hunting in Montana, I will take the 30-06. The 308 will work almost as well, but will be my backup, but I’m not taking 2 rifles. If I am hunting prairie dog in Texas, I’m taking the .243. Once again the .308 is my back-up.
If I have to choose just one caliber, it would be the .243. One of the most versatile calibers available. Sorry .308
Vern, your logic makes very little sense the .308 and 30.06 ballistics are almost identical. I own both calibers so its not like I have a problem with .30-06 BTW I live in Missoula, Montana and have seen big moose dropped cold with a .308Quote:
Originally Posted by vern748
I realize those are your personal preferences and thats cool. Interesting that you picked the .243 as your All-Around Cowboy go to rifle considering that it is based on the .308 design.
hi mini14gb
It is all about personal preferences. I have no doubt about the capabilities of the .308, the M60 was my favorite weapon, but that is a different story. Is the 308 a match for the 30-06, you bet. Will it outclass the .243 ( a necked down .308), more often than not. Its just not my go to round when there are other tools available that will do a better job for the given job.
If I'm building a house, I'm using a proper framing hammer with a good checkered face.
Doing body work, I'm using a ball-peen hammer. The standard claw hammer will work almost as well in all situations, but I am going to go with my tool of choice.
Can we say hijacked & off topic again. Sheeeeesh. Sorry I just had to. ;D
you can argue a few hundred fps here and there so if a 308 is almost ballisticly the same as a 30-06, a 30-30 is almost the same as a 308, so why not a 30-30? and the 30-30 as taken well more game then the 308 since it has been around almost twice as long as the 308.
Basically gentleman, we can agree to disagree. Shoot whatever you like and ignore what other people say. Sadly, caliber choice is one of the few freedoms we still retain.....................for the moment. Enjoy whatever you have in the safe, cabinet, rack.
The availability of a wide selection of cartridges is what spurs debates like this. This cartridge will do THIS better. Yeah, well this cartridge will do THAT better. I personally don't own a .308 right now... not entirely true, I own a .308 barrel that's not installed on a gun right now. But as has been pointed out it's all about priorities. I want lower recoil, you want higher velocity, he want's bullet selection and she wants to be able to go into any store in the country and buy ammo.
I have a 260 Rem and love it. I just put a 6.5x47 Lapua barrel on my kids gun and that is proving to be a real shooter. But if the chips were down and I had to pick one and only one gun, it would be a standard cartridge I could get anywhere like a .308, 223 or 30-06 and most likely, if I had to pick one and only one gun it would be a 22LR for a variety of reasons.
I am glad that is a decision we don't have to make.
One thing that informs this discussion here in CA is the "lead free" zones to protect the condor.
One solution is to "up-caliber" a bit to use the copper bullets.
Thus a move from 243/7mm-08 to 308 or 338 Fed.
Are you telling me that a condor hit with a .338 lead free bullet won't die. LOL! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I know what you mean. I am just joking. It's just that every time I hear something from CA I have to smile quietly to myself.