Does anyone weigh their brass? And if so, how much of a difference in weight do you look for?
Is 1 grain close enough?
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Does anyone weigh their brass? And if so, how much of a difference in weight do you look for?
Is 1 grain close enough?
up to you how fussy you want to be. weigh a few and see how much of a spread you have. You could sort them by .02 and see how many piles you have. Cull the extremums until you have a usable quantity.
I do not. I don’t pretend it would make any accuracy difference for myself. I think many, many people kid themselves with their shooting ability. Honestly.. any forum you go to online it seems, every other person seems to have a factor, bone stock rifle that shoots 1/4” MOA, LOL!
Tried weighing cases decades ago and it didn't make a lot of difference with my scores. This Savage Stealth in 6.5 Creedmoor won't shoot 1/4 moa with me at the wheel, but it does darn good for only having a trigger change. Whatta Hobby!
I sort everything I take to a match and that includes primers. It's the anal side of physics.
I shoot Norma brass and my 284-ELF has 5 piles, 1/2 grain apart. I got 3 extreme outliers.
2 full grains heavier. I cut two apart to check to see if web thickness was the culprit. it was
not. There can be an argument about only water/alcohol sorting is the best way to check
capacity, but the flaw in that method is all cases don't spring back the same. and would be
closer if the full case was annealed, and of course we don't do that.....Note, i only weight
sort after all prep work is done. And on another note....It's also part of the mental game.
And one more note.....Deburring and chamfering the necks ?? You would be surprised how
weight you can alter. Some cases stretch more then others....Did I mention "mental game"
Fuj, are you saying you are mental? LOL But, yeah, that is a big part when you go down the precision rabbit hole.
Caveat: I am the weak link. I can only shoot to 1/2MOA on a regular basis. Sometimes the stars align and I can get lower, but, not often. And I do not compete.
I do weight sort, but, only to 1gn. My brass is all Lapua or Peterson so most are good. I have also considered the best way to determine case consistency. Volume measurement by filling the case with water or some other consistent medium is considered the 'best' but I do not take the extra time.
My alternative method is to track muzzle velocities. If I get some outliers I will mark the head of the case with a sharpie. Then if it is still 'off' for the next session then I will remove that case from my box. FWIW, I've only had to do that a few times out of a hundred cases. Yes there is a chance I am tossing a good case, but, when all the rest are shooting +/-10fps and one is 30fps out twice in a row, then something is probably wrong with the case.
I did have a batch of Hornady match cases a while ago (.308Win) and they were sorted into three batches of 1gn. I think (mental) it made a difference in group sizes, but, I can't prove it.
The only way to prove something like this works is a blind test, which is kinda time consuming.
If the brass isn't all same manufacturer, same lot number, no, otherwise, yes, only to find if any are significantly outside the mean.
Forgot, the mental side. I will frequently mark on my sheet if I 'feel' wrong when the gun goes off. Not a trigger pull or jerk or lifting my head (I note those too), just an off feeling. Sometimes the bullet still goes in the group, but, other times it is the one that 'stretches' the group. I'll also note if I don't feel 'right' that day. Sometimes the 'shooting therapy' makes it go away, sometimes it means I shoot lousy that day.
Honestly, I believe it’s akin to other things we do. The way I like using Titanium parts. Or that I prefer super high-quality 7075 rings opposed to 6061 rings. The crazy amount of extra strength isn’t needed.. I know that. But it gives me piece of mind. Could also liken it to barrel break in. Again, not something I worry about beyond me just shooting & cleaning, but many shooters have their own very lavish recipe for break in. It brings them solace. A placebo, so to speak. And I am 100% OK with that. Studies have shown the Placebo Effect can in fact, make a difference.
At our ages. it's always mental.....LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
I do about the same as you regarding a weird velocity. I inside neck lube and wonder
if I missed a case or two. I'll mark them as foulers but recheck the speeds.
LOL, yep, and sometimes a lot of that mental has left the building :)
Yes I sort by weight, but I mainly sort by velocity.
I'm in the camp of, if you have never trimmed, turned, uniformed etc.... and your brass is not all the same batch from Lapua or other quality brand, by all means sort by weight. Once you remove brass it is mute.
I track muzzle volocity as well, marking my cases high med and low ie blue green and red, followed by weighing those just for drill and sure enough the higher speed cases weigh just a bit more.Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
if I see that difference on paper and the chrono I’ll sit that case aside.
I've simply sorted brass for my hunting rifles by those that go in the bullseye at the range and those that dont and those that go high and those that go low.
Never read about anyone else sorting brass like this but the ones that always seem to go into the bullseye seem to have a propensity to do it again and again.
Maybe I'm just crazy and its all mental. May be some science I dont understand in it somewhere. Heck might be luck or even magic. Whatever it is seems to work for me.
I agree with Your method Jeep. I would call it “Sorting by Point of Impact”. Precision reloads need to be Fire Formed anyway, so why not sort according to the results after that process.
Weighing brass has been one of the longest running discussions ever :)
Excuses and interweb data can be used for or against weighing.
Some suggest uniforming primer pockets, deburring flash holes, trimming and chamfering impact weight.
How much? Weight a case, an example is a 6.5X55 mil case.
The as fired case with a length of 2.160" weighs 181.935 grains.
Trimming 0.005" and chamfering, 2.155" weighs 181.755 grains (a loss of 0.145 grains),
Trimming 0.010" and it weighs 181.640 grains (0.295 grains),
To lose one whole grain from this case would require a trim of about 0.034".
Some areas of the case WILL affect weight but NOT volume.
Neck thickness in the bullet seating area.
Groove and rim.
Flash hole.
Pocket depth.
By how much?
Web thickness, wall thickness will effect both weight and volume remembering that brass weighs about 8 times water/powder.
Don't be afraid to waste time finding the OUTLIERS in weight and cull them from competition use. It's usually one-and done.
If you can't find any outliers, good.
Now primers.
Does a light or heavy outlier make any difference?
I don't know but I don't like outliers in any component.
Attachment 9777
Granted only a few, but a range of 0.165 grains seems like a lot. Average weight seems to be about 3.66grains for the CCI450.
Now that is something I had never thought to do. Have you ever tracked vel or groups based on primer weight? I know I usually get better groups from match primers (CCI BR-2, Fed Gold Medal, Rem BR). CCI sm rifle magnum primers are very close to match performance in my shooting as well.
Not yet. Just haven't had the time. I've segregated them for future tests.
Ran some Ginex across the scale and though wow, that's terrible.
Attachment 9781
Then got a wild hair and sorted a 1000 CCI450.
Just a FEW outliers.
Wife keeps throwing fliers and to keep the peace I need to verify it ain't my reloading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketvapor
Interesting data.
I am just glad I don't have to reload for someone else. I can only blame myself for fliers :)
And we all know that keeping the wife happy is a necessary endeavor.
I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by big honkin jeep
Thing about fliers and primers, is all about added charge weight. If you have a primer
over one tenth of a grain more, That one tenth has more energy then one tenth of a
grain of powder.....I sort and shoot CCI BR2's and will find more outliers then I like.
I use the cheapest primers I can find for fire forming. I located a brick of Federal
Champions, and sorted the first 100 just to see.....The whole brick was outliers....LOL
At least I now have a few months supply of sorted primers.
Bought the big ol' box of Ginex due to shortages just to be on the safe side.
Sorted them, then sorted the CCI450's, and some 41's.
Maybe I'll take some of the outliers and shoot them blind with some from the mean weight.
(have my reloading helper ID the cases)
The wife and I have been playing with F-Open Midrange for a couple years.
Loading trigger time rounds and a monthly match is usually over 200 rounds each month.
With all the bad press about the 22N I run an AR without a gas port using 22N/Dogtown brass sorted to the nearest grain.
My thought is as long as all are the same for a match, like 108gr, 109gr, 110gr I can adjust with the sighters.
The wife is running a gasser, with the gas cut back to dribble using 22 Nosgar, again sorted to the nearest grain.
The 6mm Hagar case, necked and trimmed is HEAVY. 125gr, 126gr. An earlier batch in the 50 case bags was closer to 130gr.
As long as I don't mix them I think she will be OK.
It does require different load development for each of us partly due to the brass volume and partly due to round count differences in the two barrels. Mine being pretty much shot out @ 3300 rounds. Her load is currently about 1 to 1.2 grains less with the heavier case. Volume difference in pic;
Attachment 9783
She has about 700 rounds on hers and doing pretty good (less fliers) shooting the Berger 85.5 @ about 2980fps muzzle, 2500 @ 300, and a little over 2000 @ 600.
Always a flier, and it's not my fault :)
100yds
Attachment 9784
300yds
Attachment 9785
600
Attachment 9786
I'm putting together (in the early stages now) a Savage SA, Shilen 28", and a pretty laminated stock, again in 22 Nosgar as a Christmas present (maybe Valentines) , and reward for an anticipated Master in Midrange (she's getting closer).
Maybe when my new barrel gets here I can catch up :)
But for now it sort, sort, sort :)
Fuji,Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuj'
I’ve had pretty good luck sorting CCI srp primers using the gram mode vs grain mode as for example a mid 450 weight is listed at .239 and confirmed’ I’ll sort .238-.240 as mid with .235-.237 low and finally .241-.244 as high leaving out the few odd balls. Same technic with BR-4’s and when I test primers to determine which one the ignition prefers I’ll run a charge ladder of each 450 and br-4 side by side at distance and one will prevail with a much smaller and less erratic overall ladder on paper.
Jim
So Fuj, would You SKIP A MATCH if You didn’t have time to do all the OCD stuff we normally do:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuj'
You guys are going to drag me further down the rabbit hole. :)
Yes charlie, next measure “PRIMER HEIGHT”. Otherwise, uniforming primer pockets is moot :(Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
If a fella sorts by point of impact, you’ll certainly need a good set of wind flags and know how to read them.:oQuote:
Originally Posted by GrenGuy
OK now you are just being MEAN! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by GrenGuy
Agreed. I’ve pretty much always been a “picker”. Just never been able to “run” a condition with My Savage action. So watching the flags is a must.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrenGuy
When the bug bites, ain’t no end to it :oQuote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
Until I got the new barrel I just kinda accepted my mediocre loads. 1/2MOA was just fine with a 3/4 or even a 1.0 thrown in just to irritate me. Then I started getting some groups in the 0.2 or 0.3 range. Not often, just enough to make me want more. So, I find myself doing strange things, like marking cases that show a vel out of norm. I already trued primer pockets and now I find I'll probably get rid of some fliers if I weigh and measure primers. Does it ever end? :)
So....not to poke the hornet's nest....do you guys weight sort bullets as well? What about 'pointing'? FYI, I am using the Vapor Trail 'cheap' bullets.
And, yeah wind flags. Just happens that I am the guy at our range that puts up wind flags at 100yd steps out to 1000yd. So far the maintenance folks don't mess with them. I am still not very good at translating them into dope.
I don’t weigh bullets but for long range I do sort them starting at base to seating stem then base to ogive in .002 increments and those that qualify I’ll sort finally by overall length into equally small increments shoot them in there prospective groups as record rounds. VTac 103 gr are really quite good just not as good as the hand swaged that Tom makes, those many guys just load straight out of the box while others sort overall length for 1000/ long range. Added; just to complete my thought here, the reason I sort btss and bto is so when I adjust my seater .001 the relationship to the lands adjust the same amount while overall length affects BC.
what matters when seating primers is to ensure they are seated to the bottom of the pocket plus a slight crush, testing the amount of crush that your ignition prefers is quite easy with an adjustable primer seating tool like Sinclair or 21st century by increasing crush until you see the result you like on the target.
Thanks Jim. I had not considered bullet ogive length before. Makes sense to do so. One of these days I'll try Tom's hand made bullets.
I hand seat primers and try to get a consistent force on them since that affects how the anvil seats against the pocket. I never considered crush or consistent depth to be that critical.
Your very welcome, when I first got my 21st century hand primer tool ( off a prize table 2021 long range nationals) and began using it, the feel is like having power steering or power brakes over manual meaning the feel of the primer seating was subtle. I mentioned this to a buddy and he suggested to increase depth per click because his experience had differed. With that advice I began and discovered I was just touching bottom and hadn’t actually applied crush, continuing a few clicks at a time the crush was evident and I found improvements on paper with regards to group consistency and size.Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
Makes sense to me. My cast bullet loads are sensitive to primers, ie, some hang fire just enough to be noticeable. I think I will try this with them too and see if things improve. Large case ~55% load density. They don't do it when shooting jacketed.
I will weigh new brass, but after sizing and prep work is done. For example I bought 100 pcs of Starline .308 and while weighing them I set them up on my kitchen counter by weight and the result looks like a normal bell shaped graph. I think the max spread was about 2 to 2.5 grains. I separated into two lots, the lighter side and heavier side, and then split the center line of cases, half to each the lighter and heavier groups. That cut the max spread in half. Probably me being a little OC but it makes me feel good. This has been my method for quite a while. Realistically though I should focus more on neck tension consistency as that will probably improve the velocity SD more than weight. Has it improved my scores? Not sure. Maybe the better strategy is to not waste time on the weighing exercise and use it to improve my wind reading skills. Ha.
I typically get a couple outside a bell distribution, and just put them back in the box, for later :)
Loading for a match, about 70 rounds, I will group each relay tight.
If any difference, sighters should take care of it.
I don’t worry about weighing brass anymore. I used to, but decided it just wasn’t enjoyable. The reloading game can become a hole that just never stops. From weighing brass, to weighing & separating individual projectiles & even primers! I’ve even heard crazy, obsessive disorder behavior of counting individual grains of powder. I don’t mean grains as in measure of weight, but rather the individual UNITS or PIECES of powder! I mean, seriously? I actually enjoy reloading. I find it relaxing…calming of the mind. But I’m not in competition. And nothing is riding on my shooting.
So I stopped. Because those aspects weren’t enjoyable, I found.
I too have no data that says variation of a several 10ths of a grain among the same headstamp brass makes any difference in accuracy.
Then again, I have shot only Lapua brass in both of the rifles listed below so the case weight variation, even between lots, is not a factor.
I have made the same conclusion for weight variations among a particular bullet types in the same caliber from the same manufacturer.
I mostly only use high quality match bullets. That conclusion might not be valid for some bargain bullets.
That said, the difference in 100 groups and all groups results from barrel preferences for bullet weights and powders.
Both of theses rifles have the benefit of lots of data loading other rifles in their calibers, so the bullets used are the ones that previously have performed best in other rifles.
That also might have eliminated bullets with large variation in weight within a particular lot.
My newest .223 12 FV with over 1050 5-round groups down the tube averages .282 and 0.245 for the best 100 loads (402 groups).
My newest 6.5mm CM 12 FV with over 645 5-round groups down the tube averages 0.339 and under 0.309 for the best 100 loads (385 groups).
The top 100 loads are the bullet-powder combinations that each barrel prefers.
Measured case and bullet weights early in my shooting these rifles and have concluded that variations in case weights have no statistically significant effect on average group size.
Most of my variation comes from the nut behind the trigger.
A suspicion about the occasional flyers being experienced by Rocketvapor's wife.
I have determined that the occasional flyer that we all experience may be more from variations in set up than from the bullet or powder being used.
I have measured that 1/8 inch variation if eye relief can cause up to 1/4 inch variation in bullet impact point.
(I had too short a stock on a very accurate rifle and found I was sneaking up on the scope due to resetting after recoil).
An adjustable stock solved that problem.
In experimenting after that revelation, I also found that being off the optical center of a scope causes horizontal impacts in expected point of impact because the angle variation between the reticle and the optical plane causes mis-aiming. Sometimes the reticle wasn't actually aiming where I thought it was.
My solution was to get the reticle on my aim point, then lean my head back until the black ring appears around the perimeter of the scope image. If the ring isn't concentric I move my head until the ring is perfectly concentric and move my head forward until the ring just disappears. That gets my eye in the center of the optical plane and as close to the same eye relief as I can determine.
I was astonished how far off the aim point the point of impact can be if I didn't make sure that my aim point was where the barrel was actually aimed.
If I get over confident and repeat that process, within a few rounds I will probably experience a flyer.
My suspicion is that my set up position is being impacted by recoil and I am not correcting for it.
I hope this helps.
Very well said CF. I agree. I think believe the Human Factor is more of an influence the these minute inconsistencies.
I agree, in secret :)
She is getting better, but even with the Savage Bolt 22N she still has a flier or two.
http://www.savageshooters.com/image/...E49gAHRp//2Q==
Jan-2024 100 yds.
Attachment 10450
Feb-2024 600 yds
Attachment 10447
A few different causes for not cleaning a target.
Those 9's steal points in a match :(
mostly true, but couple human error with accuracy left in the reloading room and the chances of placing well at a competition get slim noting that the margins separating the top ten are even slimmer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Problem is as the groups get smaller then smaller things matter. Used to do failure analysis on designs. Simple things like tolerances of fitting parts stack up and can cause issues with overall system level performance. Same thing here. If enough tolerances stack up against you then you get a flier. You may have 5 or even 10 rounds on top of each other and then one is off by a significant amount.
And, yeah, if the user can't hold well enough then all the precision in the tool doesn't matter. I am still working on the 'me' part to keep up with the tool. :)
Was just shooting again this morning. Got back and marked cases that had fliers or velocities out of the norm. Only one was a 'repeat' so it got tossed. FWIW, the Peterson brass is running neck and neck with the Lapua.
"Yes Sir" !! This all adds up to help the mental game also.Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b