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May have an opportunity to begin shooting some mid-range ( up to 500 yards ) target ranges. Most of the posts I`ve seen concerning this model have been fairly old and I`m hoping for some more current input, whether positive or negative. Thanks very much in advance for any feedback.
What are you looking for as far as info? Do you have one of these already, interested in getting one? What caliper & cartridge are you looking at?
As far as being a target rifle, that is the purpose of the 12LRPV. It uses the single shot, 3-screw port Action. Large Shank. The current version is Right Hand Bolt, Left side Eject, although older LRPV’s can be found Used, that are Right Hand Bolt & Right Eject. And of course single shot. So you’ll need to decide if those two qualities work for you. It has the Target Accutrigger which is a plus… unless you are one who likes to customize & change things, which makes it a waste.
This platform is capable of the highest precision Savage offers in the 110-line of rifles. For an out of the box rig, ready to go & for someone who doesn’t want to change things, it’s a great rifle. Can be found for around $1400 new, which is decent for what they offer. Can find the older version USED for around $1000, which is a fantastic deal. (And the way I would go.) the only thing I don’t like is the single shot. I’m a magazine guy… always have been. And I like Aluminum Chassis. Oh, and I like building my own rifles with all the parts I want… So, these are a NO for me. But could be exactly what others are looking for.
I have one in .204. Great shooter. Pretty dang accurate. Plenty heavy so you see your impacts. One I will keep for a very long time.
Thanks Dave. I don`t have one and am just evaluating and was looking for input from current users as to any issues (reliability ), quirks that would be good to know, real world experience with accuracy and precision out beyond, say, 300 yards, etc. I`m not really a tinkerer when it comes to guns, so a good set up affording an opportunity for accuracy at the stated ranges out of the box would be important. Most interest is in .223, preferably 1:7 twist. I have experience with a 110 action and have been very pleased with my 110 Storm. Until potentially in the near future ( if I`m accepted into a local rod and gun club ), the only range to which I have access is 100 yards max. LOL, that`s been my excuse for not getting a more dedicated target gun! So far everything I`ve seen about the 12 LRPV has been very positive. Guess I need to go over to Sniper`s Hide where they hate all things Savage to get the flip side ( just kidding !! I pay little mind to what they say. ) ! If I don`t get into the club this is moot anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Don’t let a club be the bearing for anything you do. I’m not part of any competition. Am just a member at a normal Gun Club, and while I could take part in their comps.. I don’t. I shoot because I enjoy it. But for me it’s the entire hobby. Besides shooting(which isn’t as much as in years past), I love building & working on firearms. I love reloading, working up loads. And I love just talking about guns with others who enjoy the hobby as I do. But I purchase the rifles I want(rather, I build those I want…but, same general outcome.) Also, you could do the same thing with your 110 Storm.
But I’m sure you would be happy with the 12LRPV.
Well, the problem is that ONLY the club has ranges over 100 yards within reasonable distance. I`m not interested in competition either, except internal competition in trying to get better. We shall see. Thanks much!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
I got a great deal on the 12 LRPV action and built a 223 for 300 yard Benchrest matches. So far it shoots great. Most guys are shooting custom rifles but I like Savage because I am a bit of a shade tree gunsmith and like doing things myself. This one has the stock Target Accutrigger with a little work I did on it, shoots real good at about 5oz pull weight.
I did quite a bit of 600yd shooting with my .223 Axis (heavy barrel version). Less than MOA most days if I could manage the windage. 77gn SMK's with a 1:9 twist barrel at 2850fps. I did not compete. My targets of choice were soda cans. Since they were 1/2MOA wide it was a challenge.
But, I went to a 6BR when I upgraded my 12BVSS. Not much more recoil and more vel with heavier bullets. It has been a much better combination at 600yd for me.
7 twist
80 grains of sierra matchking, CCI BR4 mixed with 23.8 grains of R15 will do surprisingly well out to 600 with low wind.
I have one in .223 with 1/9" twist. Shoots 69 and 77 grain sierra mk bullets very well. Also likes the hornady 73 gr ELD-M. The rifle is certainly capable of sub half moa groups at 100 and 200 yards.
Not within your parameters, however a 6 or 6.5 Creedmoor will blow your mind at those ranges as far as accuracy goes. Lots of cartridges will for a re loader, but off the shelf ammo works well in those two, and it is available.
Dave, or anybody else, can you briefly compare the LRPV with the F/TR, both in .223? Range shooting out to 500 yards from bench, bags fore and aft. Not sure about a scope yet. If you were buying one of the two? Thanks in advance. I respect the experience and knowledge of Savage rifles that you guys have here!
They are both Target, Single Shot Actions with Bull 1:7 Twist Barrels, so they will perform very close. Even price is pretty close. Can’t point to one being “better” than the other. The results will ultimately rest on the loads & shooter. I’d say go with which you like more. Do you want the Left or Right side ejection port? Would you prefer a 26” or 30” barrel? And do you like the Black Synthetic or or Grey Laminate stock more? Your choice will be the Right one!Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeytider
Thank you sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Comfort and stability is big when doing that type of shooting. I really like the ergo of the LRPV with its left eject but compared to the F/TR I think it looses something. I have put adjustable cheek pieces on both. I think the LRPV is not as well balanced either. That is a subjective thing however.
Well, went ahead and got the LRPV. I`m here to tell you this thing is a beast! Heaviest 11 or so pounds I`ve experienced, but then everything seems heavier at 75! The stainless barrel is obviously where most of the weight is, making it barrel heavy, of course. The HS Precision stock is very nice. Looking forward to getting it to the range. I don`t expect it to move much at all once it`s on the bags!
Excellent. Enjoy it.
I believe that this gun and scope ( Vortex Diamondback Tactical 4-16X44 ) is going to be everything I hoped it would be. Easy zero today with Federal Gold Medal 77grain SMK bullets. Several 3 round groups averaged 0.6 MOA , which I know is not exceptional for most but with which I`m happy. Pretty sure the rig is better than the guy shooting it! None were over 0.73 and the smallest was 0.3. Just makes me wonder how it would do with some time spent developing hand loads for it. To boot, I do believe that the bolt lift is actually getting a bit easier! Lots of fun, looking forward to getting a start at 200 and 300 yards fairly soon.
I agree.. I’m quite happy with .6” group shooting. Yes, bolt lift will get easier & the Action smoother as you use it. Very normal.
Congratulations!!! Especially with factory ammo. Will make it hard to not use the expensive stuff :) Which is why I ended up handloading for the .223
Yep, about the best I can manage, on average, is 0.5MOA. Every now and then, the stars will align, I'll actually do everything right, and a 0.3MOA group will appear :) It does help if the gun is capable and I've paid attention to the handloads. I have had a couple 0.1 or 0.2 groups over the years, but, those are just luck.
Thanks Charlie. Definitely think I`ve got the hardware to work my way out to 500 yards. The limiting factor will be the shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
I have a savage model 12 and it’s the Beas and most accurate rifle I have ever owned. Stock action and criterion barrel. Just last week I shot a grout 1.5 inch width and 1” elevation at 500 meters. 1500 rounds on the barrel, just checking if it still had enough accuracy left in it. I decided it would make it to the end of the benchrest season.
So 1500 rounds is enough to question precision? I hope I get considerably more than that out of my Model 12 in .223. Then again, I`m not competing, just trying to bang steel .Quote:
Originally Posted by Pjohn
Don't worry about barrel life with the .223. My Axis barrel was still capable of 0.5MOA after 4500 rounds. It is in a box waiting to see if I will every use it again.
I would brag about the .308 but most of the bullets through it have been cast (getting close to 6000). :)
Range report: Started the journey out to 500 yards today by shooting some steel targets at 200 and 300. I didn`t measure groups or anything but the LRPV banged them with no problem. All I did was point it and then got out of the way! Frontier(Hornady) 68 grain OTM rounds. It was fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeytider
Good stuff.. Glad you’re enjoying your new rig. :tea:
ROFLMAO Now you are hooked :)
Thanks gents. The last time I shot a rifle at targets at these ranges was when I was working for Uncle Sam back in the 70`s. This is a lot more fun! My performance with an M-16 was "inconsistent " out around 300 yards/meters ( M-14 was another matter! ), so it was nice to get a little " payback" at that range, LOL. Looking forward to getting back out and going further.
Congratulations. I have a Model 12 long range target rifle that I shoot Palma and long range prone. The rifle is great. Ergonomics great on laminate prone stock. I also like the target Accutrigger. The .308 has a 1:13 twist 30 in. barrel meant for 155 gr bullets, but the rifle shoots the heavier 175-178 gr bullets very well which I prefer. I also have a barrel chambered for 6mm SLR that also shoots great.
So enjoy your adventure with your new rifle.
Why did they go with the slow twist, and why does it shoot the heavy bullets so well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmafiddleman
Seems like that would go against most common theories on stabilizing heavy bullets.
Thanks.
It is kinda backwards, but, the longer barrels allow a bit more vel, which means longer/heavier bullets can be stabilized.
The slower twist (and longer barrel) is used with the 155's so a bit more vel could be eeeked out of them. Less energy to spin them up means more energy to push the bullet. The longer barrel is also good for a longer sight radius.
Rules: A Palma rifle consists of a single shot bolt action rifle weighing less than 6 kg (13.2lbs) in 7.62mm NATO caliber (.308 Winchester) firing a 155 grain palma bullet. US Palma rules allow any weight bullets, NRA Match and Service Rifles.
Adding to what Charlie b said, 155 gr bullets are required for those who shoot on the international team. There are three members of my club who are on the current US Palma team. Those of us who will never be on the international team can shoot the bullet we want, even at the nationals (Camp Perry, Camp Atterbury). My club sponsored a "Full Bore" match earlier this year where the 155 gr was required. Situations like this are the only time you see it mandatory. At the full bore match we also shot "two to a mound" rather than a single string. That was a challenge to stay in position a lot longer.
Why does my barrel with the 13 twist shoot the heavier bullets well? I might say that maybe I am lucky it does. Quite possibly not all barrels of same twist/length would do it.
One reason is bullet length, at least for me. The 155 Berger Full Bores that I shoot are longer than the 175SMK's that I like for shooting at 1000yd. (I am using a 10 twist so this is a different issue).
Not just for yours Charlie. That’s how it is for every gun. It’s not weight that dictates twist needed, it’s bullet length. And while the norm has been that typically the heavier the bullet, the longer it is, there have been several lighter bullets in a specific caliber, that are longer than their heavier counterparts.
As Charlie mentioned, those Berger 155 Full Bore’s are a perfect example. Very long for for a 155 30cal. So if that is your specimen for example, that answers why. But in the world of firearms, these contraptions do some strange things at times that defy logic. Just something to ponder.
There is sound physics reasons for all of this. The simplified stability equations work most of the time, but, others require the use of the more detailed equations that take into account the specific aerodynamics of the bullet being used.
And sometimes it can be atmospheric conditions. The bullet stability depends on the density of the air. Most of the time we shoot when it is closer to std conditions, but, if we go out when it is very cold then some of the loads we use might not work.
The manufacturers recommend certain twist rates based on the extremes. They have to. If Sierra made their Match Kings and recommended a twist rate that would not work at below freezing temps, they they would be turned away from military contracts (and many hunters). So, they are very conservative.
Thanks guys.
One more question - is a 175 superior to a 155 in terms of wind deflection?
In general the advise is to use the heavier weight bullet for its caliber for its ability to resist wind deflection. The 155's were chosen to create the maximum test for a rifleman/competitor in wind reading and adjustment before executing the next shot. When shooting "2 or 3 to a mound" you will have a limited time to break your shot when it is your turn. You may not have the luxury of waiting for your preferred condition to re-appear. By the way, .308 FTR shooters use the heavy, 200, 220 grs etc. class of bullet weights.
Blue is the Lapua 155gn Scenar factory load
Green is the Lapua 185gn Scenar factory load
Note the starting velocity, I suspect from a 24" or 26" barrel. I picked a zero range of 300yd
You can notice the wind drift differences in the two bullets. This was for a 5mph wind
Range Drop
(inches)Velocity Energy Wind drift
(inches)Time
(milliseconds)0 -1.4867 -1.4837 2822 2477 2740 2520 0.0156 0.0178 0 0 200 4.9646 6.0442 2471 2280 2101 2135 1.3035 0.9238 228 253 400 -11.5335 -13.2674 2145 2091 1583 1796 5.5292 3.7925 488 528 600 -58.5207 -64.4834 1843 1911 1169 1500 13.3760 8.8903 790 828 800 -146.8517 -153.9021 1566 1740 844 1243 25.7532 16.5333 1143 1157 1000 -292.6009 -289.4278 1310 1577 591 1021 43.9179 27.0994 1562 1519 1200 -520.7133 -481.2653 1099 1422 416 830 69.5685 41.0601 2066 1920 1400 -862.0448 -742.0185 1013 1275 353 668 101.0725 58.9821 2637 2366
I can say I like shooting the 175SMK's at 1000yd more than the 155 Bergers. I can adjust for wind easier. I also think the heavier bullets make for a lower ES/SD for me, which results in smaller groups. The only thing I have to overcome is the recoil. I am not consistent enough with hold (12lb rifle) over a long string. Which is why my 1000yd gun is a 6BR these days. :)
If that ain’t about the most confusing chart I ever done seen! So, “A” (Blue) is the 180gr.. but it’s in green columns? And since when is a 180gr going to be higher velocity than 155gr? Sure those aren’t reversed?
Dave,
The cut and paste messed up the A and B heading. Pay attention to the color.
Fixed it. :)
Now that’s much easier. The first way it was had me thinking I was taking crazy pills, LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
Brother…I’ll second your thinking on recoil! I remember in my teens & 20’s I thought recoil was uber kewl! Even in my 30’s I didn’t mind it so much, having a stout physic. Although by then I had come to know it just wasn’t needed. Now in my mid 40’s, with a broken, weak body, I say recoil is for the birds! I learned that having a 15lb rifle that’ll get out to a mile without much recoil is what I like.
Got it - thanks.
Well.......LOL!! I`m glad I can take credit for initiating a thread that has allowed the experts to hold forth! I`ll just crawl back into my little neophyte hole with my .223 " trainer" !!
LOL trainer indeed. Probably one of my better 600yd guns when the wind wasn't blowing.
223 is among my very favorite cartridges my friend. Although I use it in the AR platform. I’ve hand built & owned a horde of AR15’s over the last 17 years, and all but 2 were chambered 223/5.56. While I’ve never had a Bolt Gun in 223 I know what it does in my high end AR15’s. And I also know that performance can only be furthered in a Bolt Gun. Trainer says you? HA, says I!