Issues with build

I have a savage 10 action that I'm building a 308 with. It's going in an HS Precision stock. I'm using a heavy barrel Lothar Walther stainless barrel. The problem I'm having is that the barrel goes hard left when assembled. I've checked in different stocks to make sure it wasn't the stock, I've tried different recoil lugs with the same outcome and my barrel nut is a precision nut that has been checked for flatness. The only thing I can figure is that the face of the action or the action internal threads are way off. Anyone have any suggestions or experienced this before?

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I would experiment with this.

If its the barrel and the receiver/nut interface, then each 90 degree rotation adjustment would change the angle.

Don't worry about head space, just take it gently in as far as it goes and a slight snug on the nut, no torque, just enough to hold it.


Do you have the old barrel. Repeat with the lug and nut on that using various combinations of the old nut, new nut, recoil lug old an new.

I bought it as an action, so I don't have the original barrel to gauge off of. I do have another barrel I totally forgot about, so I'll try that and see if it has the same results. Be right back!

I did try combos of nuts and lugs with the same results. So, that's what makes me lean towards receiver face/threads. Plus on the side where it's leaning (the left) there is a gap between the nut and lug when hand tight and the other side is touching.

Inspect the face of the action. Take a fine flat(new) hone and lightly hone in circles to see if there is any proud metal on the face of the action. The proud metal should show itself very quickly. Concentrate light pressure there until you see contact across the face then stop. A factory recoil lug is junk and should be replaced with a precision one.

If you inspect the action on the outside diameter near the action face you will sometimes see a dent from the straightening process this often pushes or flows metal to the face causing the barrel to go off axis.

It's fairly common with Savage.

THe look is troublesome, I have not noticed a difference in accuracy with hunting rifles that do this and those that don't.

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Originally Posted by foxx

It's fairly common with Savage.

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To have a barrel rake off at a 15 degree angle or metal sticking up?

And if it helps, I am impressed with the LW barrel I have.

They were the ones that offered the most direct route to getting a 7.5 Swiss build, it shot 5/8 group on the first go (I happened to hit a good spot). Its also shooting a variety of other bullets well.

Inside finish is very good and cleans up nicely.

While their Savage pre fits are not wide spread caliber wise, they are very nicely priced.

So, same result with a different barrel.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Inspect the face of the action. Take a fine flat(new) hone and lightly hone in circles to see if there is any proud metal on the face of the action. The proud metal should show itself very quickly. Concentrate light pressure there until you see contact across the face then stop. A factory recoil lug is junk and should be replaced with a precision one.

If you inspect the action on the outside diameter near the action face you will sometimes see a dent from the straightening process this often pushes or flows metal to the face causing the barrel to go off axis.

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I don't have the tools at hand to do this, but I do have a buddy with a lathe and the skills to do receivers. I'll probably have him do it.

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Originally Posted by foxx

It's fairly common with Savage.

THe look is troublesome, I have not noticed a difference in accuracy with hunting rifles that do this and those that don't.

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You can literally hold the gun up and see the barrel is canted out of the receiver. It looks troublesome to say the least. Accuracy is consistency, so you shouldn't notice accuracy issues. What you will notice at 5-600 yards+ is that you will run out of windage adjustment in one direction.

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Originally Posted by RC20

To have a barrel rake off at a 15 degree angle or metal sticking up?

And if it helps, I am impressed with the LW barrel I have.

They were the ones that offered the most direct route to getting a 7.5 Swiss build, it shot 5/8 group on the first go (I happened to hit a good spot). Its also shooting a variety of other bullets well.

Inside finish is very good and cleans up nicely.

While their Savage pre fits are not wide spread caliber wise, they are very nicely priced.

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It's a nice barrel for sure! I'm just pissed I can't go shoot it right now until I get this solved.

^^^^Right. I am not saying it is a desirable condition, nor one you ought to accept, just that it is somewhat common. It will cause your windage to be off at every distance but 1.

I can't say I have EVER seen one that's off by 15 degrees, this one included. ;)

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Originally Posted by TheFNG57

So, same result with a different barrel.



I don't have the tools at hand to do this, but I do have a buddy with a lathe and the skills to do receivers. I'll probably have him do it.



You can literally hold the gun up and see the barrel is canted out of the receiver. It looks troublesome to say the least. Accuracy is consistency, so you shouldn't notice accuracy issues. What you will notice at 5-600 yards+ is that you will run out of windage adjustment in one direction.



It's a nice barrel for sure! I'm just pissed I can't go shoot it right now until I get this solved.

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That certainly appears to be a pretty large error and since it's the same with a different barrel I'm of the opinion it's in the action. I would be surprised if the action itself is threaded off axis. If so, it will take more than just facing the action as I doubt that the threads would have enough clearance to allow the barrel move back in proper alignment. Even if it did, there would be a lot of stress added at that point which could exacerbate any "heat creep" in you accuracy.

You mentioned you bought an action only. Was it by any chance a trued action with the threads cut .010" oversized as part of the truing process? Does the barrel feel loose in the action, with free-play when you move barrel side-side.

If the action was not trued, truing by cutting threads oversized will require a new barrel. The choice then becomes "buy a new action (tube only) or a new barrel".

Lots of possibilities but from this side much of it is just guessing. Good luck.

I have an action that is nearly identical to that. Always just assumed the action screw holes were drilled off a bit or something. I've changed barrels/stocks etc etc for years on it and haven't given it any thought. Have shot well over 1,000 yards with it and never had any issue sighting in, shooting LR or reloading for it. It was only a consmetic thing to me.

I actually had to remove some material from the left side of my HS stock to keep it from contacting on fore end lol

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Originally Posted by foxx

^^^^Right. I am not saying it is a desirable condition, nor one you ought to accept, just that it is somewhat common. It will cause your windage to be off at every distance but 1.

I can't say I have EVER seen one that's off by 15 degrees, this one included. ;)

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Its a hell of an angle. 10 to 15 degrees at a guess.

Probably a clue as to why the action was sold.


side note: Sometimes you can adjust for things. I knocked my favorite scope hard, spot on target, it just shoots 20 inches high when the vertical is screwed all the way down.

Cheap fix was to get a low coast 20 MOA rail and turn it around backwards. Not its spot on. Normal rail I am good to 1000

Someday when I shoot the famous 2500 yards I can put the 20 MOA rail on right.

If it's 10 degrees, I have a 30 inch _______!

:)


Well, okay. Maybe only 21"

One other concern is that you may have purchased a twisted action. Some guys try to remove the action by twisting it off the barrel by inserting a tool in the action mag well and turning. Never a good thing. The end result is always a ruined action. You can hold it up to the light and look down the bolt(lug) raceway. It should be perfectly flat

Your barrel is probably off less than 2 degrees.

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Originally Posted by Deadshot2

That certainly appears to be a pretty large error and since it's the same with a different barrel I'm of the opinion it's in the action. I would be surprised if the action itself is threaded off axis. If so, it will take more than just facing the action as I doubt that the threads would have enough clearance to allow the barrel move back in proper alignment. Even if it did, there would be a lot of stress added at that point which could exacerbate any "heat creep" in you accuracy.

You mentioned you bought an action only. Was it by any chance a trued action with the threads cut .010" oversized as part of the truing process? Does the barrel feel loose in the action, with free-play when you move barrel side-side.

If the action was not trued, truing by cutting threads oversized will require a new barrel. The choice then becomes "buy a new action (tube only) or a new barrel".

Lots of possibilities but from this side much of it is just guessing. Good luck.

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It was not a trued action, just a rifle that was pieced out. The action has never been shot on and I bought it from a member here on the forum.

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Originally Posted by RC20

Its a hell of an angle. 10 to 15 degrees at a guess.

Probably a clue as to why the action was sold.


side note: Sometimes you can adjust for things. I knocked my favorite scope hard, spot on target, it just shoots 20 inches high when the vertical is screwed all the way down.

Cheap fix was to get a low coast 20 MOA rail and turn it around backwards. Not its spot on. Normal rail I am good to 1000

Someday when I shoot the famous 2500 yards I can put the 20 MOA rail on right.

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I really hope this wasn't why it was sold. I bought it here on the forum. I usually try to take people up on here as honest and he had good feedback. I may try to just shoot it first and see how it goes, but I really don't like the looks of it.

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Originally Posted by foxx

If it's 10 degrees, I have a 30 inch _______!

:)


Well, okay. Maybe only 21"

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Ya, Just looking at my framing square, it might be 2 degrees or 3 at the most.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

One other concern is that you may have purchased a twisted action. Some guys try to remove the action by twisting it off the barrel by inserting a tool in the action mag well and turning. Never a good thing. The end result is always a ruined action. You can hold it up to the light and look down the bolt(lug) raceway. It should be perfectly flat

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I will take a look at this when I get home. That would be sucky balls. I really hope this is not the case. I didn't see any noticeable signs of damage (not even dent) from tools being inserted in there.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Your barrel is probably off less than 2 degrees.

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Just a quick measurement on a square give 2-3 at most.


On a side note, if I could prove that the threads were off center bad enough they couldn't be fixed, and I could prove it to Savage, would they warranty it at all?

Warranty? No. Not TECHNICALLY. Warranty is long gone.

Might they offer some kind of good will gesture? I think they should if you can prove the threads were mis-cut, but I don't think they will even want to look at it. They just don't price their products for that kind of customer service. Besides, if what we are saying about its impact on 100-300 yard accuracy is correct, they won't even admit it's an issue.

Very interested in the condition of the face of the action.

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Originally Posted by foxx

Warranty? No. Not TECHNICALLY. Warranty is long gone.

Might they offer some kind of good will gesture? I think they should if you can prove the threads were mis-cut, but I don't think they will even want to look at it. They just don't price their products for that kind of customer service. Besides, if what we are saying about its impact on 100-300 yard accuracy is correct, they won't even admit it's an issue.

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****. I'll give it a shot depending on how far the threads or face are out and if it can be fixed or not.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Very interested in the condition of the face of the action.

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I'll kip this updated as it progresses. In the mean time, I'll be ordering a proper recoil lug, but I know this isn't the issue at hand.

I have to agree I was wrong, no more than 2.5 degrees.

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but I know this isn't the issue at hand.

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Have you ever ground one of them on a surface grinder

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Have you ever ground one of them on a surface grinder

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No I haven't, but when you try 3 different ones with the exact same result it leads me to believe it's the receiver.


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I agree but those factory lugs can take up to .025 to clean up all the way on both sides. Crazy! did you ever look at the face and the edges around the face to see if something was influencing the barrel nut and lug... or the raceway for twist/distortion?

I'm going to say the threads in the receiver for the barrel aren't parallel to the action given how far off it is. Doesn't happen often, but yours wouldn't be the first to suffer this issue.

Did anyone consider that the stock may not be square, recoil lug inlet off to one side, or a small piece pf plastic keeping it from centering.
Try this also place barreled action in stock, hold it centered then tighten front screw snugly then rear screw, then torque front then the back and see if it helps.
If not it is only cosmetic any way, pick up a set of windage adjustable bases and have it.

^^^They sort of addressed some of these possibilities earlier.

I would like to see a straight edge or tight string along the center of the scope mount holes extending out to the muzzle.

I know this, MANY of my builds seem to lean left into the muzzle end of the barrel channel, and NEVER to the right. Adjusting the stock as you say helps occasionally. I long-since quit worrying about it in 300 yard or less hunting rifles because it is so common and has no practical affect.

I kinda suggested this in my first response here. Of course, I would feel differently if it were a long range custom build as this one may be.

What surprises me is it appears I am the only one claiming (admitting?) to notice this rather "common" (?????) issue.

I haven't on any I have built or looked at.

Possible it was in the vertical plane you might not see it.

So I just got word from my smith that the threads were good, but the face was off 6/1000's off on the side that the barrel was pointing to. He milled the face flat, so we will see if this fixed the issue.


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Cool. Keep us posted.

What throws me is it looks like the margin between the barrel and the barrel channel in the stock is pretty consistent. Not equal but consistent.

Take the barreled action out of the stock and roll the barrel across a flat surface. Watch the action. If it wobbles like a drunk sailor then the action barrel threads are not concentric with the action.

You could.have the threads recut but.they would be oversized and prefit barrels would not fit. I would send it back to savage

If the barrel is straight in the action then it could be a stock problem. I doubt that is the problem here though. Surely not if the barrel is not mating up with the action face correctly.

Or it could be the barrel threads. Try another barrel to be sure.

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Originally Posted by m12lrs

What throws me is it looks like the margin between the barrel and the barrel channel in the stock is pretty consistent. Not equal but consistent.

Take the barreled action out of the stock and roll the barrel across a flat surface. Watch the action. If it wobbles like a drunk sailor then the action barrel threads are not concentric with the action.

You could.have the threads recut but.they would be oversized and prefit barrels would not fit. I would send it back to savage

If the barrel is straight in the action then it could be a stock problem. I doubt that is the problem here though. Surely not if the barrel is not mating up with the action face correctly.

Or it could be the barrel threads. Try another barrel to be sure.

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I tried another barrel, stock, 3 lugs, and 2 nuts. Each combination had the same result. This pretty much narrows it down to the action for me. My only other thought is that the holes in the bottom of the action are mis aligned.

My smith said the action threads were fine and he didn't need to mess with them. Hopefully truing the face solves the issue.


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Yea, from hat I have seen you will not get a bad LW barrel.

One degree = 0.017 per inch so a 30 inch barrel, off 1 degree - would be off .510 at the end - I doubt it is off more than an 1/8 inch looking at the picture SO .125 / 30 = 0.004 or 1/4 of one degree
put it together and shoot it.