A few questions about my new model 10TR and about barrel break in

Well I just picked up the very last shipment from my local police supplier of the discontinued model 10TR's.. I got greedy and bought all they had knowing that is was a hell of a deal they offered and probably wont ever again , A total of 6 rifles for $425ea.... You just cant beat that. All with EGW rails, threaded barrel, 5r rifling ,really cool bolt knobs and accustocks.

Anyway I had a few questions regarding some aftermarket stuff for this

1. I really want to get a fluted bolt body for it, I will send them out but was wondering do you need to check and adjust headspace if you replace a bolt body but use the same lugs etc?

2. I havent shot it yet, but looking into the barrel I can see a good amount of chatter and tool marks on the rifling and the overall diamater in the bore. I dont know how the accuracy will be but im sure cleaning this thing will be a beast, and yes all 8 rifles have the tooling marks which im sure is just the way it is, but will fire lapping , or hand lapping be a good choice to improve some things?

3. Has anyone attempted to remove the accustock aluminum block and put it into another laminated stock? I ask because I want to get a tacticool stock but would like to use this block system. Unless just pillar and glass bedding will be better? I cant see how these new accustock blocks look really precise.

4. How does the other stocks choate bell and carlson aluminum bedding compare to the accustock?

5. Is it worth dumpin $300 into some of these known savage gunsmiths for their 'accurizing' package?

thanks.

All I can comment on is #3:

Can't imagine it being worth the effort even if you could do it. Pillar-bedding is inexpensive and so easy to do. I've done a couple with the Accustock and they turned out fine. and I am not all that "gifted" in the fine arts of do-it-yourself projects such as these.


Correction: I said I bedded accustocks, I meant Tacticools.

Oh I have done pillar bedding, I've got a lathe and made some custom ones and did a tutorial on here about it, wouldnt it be unproductive to pillar bed the accustock I would think since its a 3d bedding system anyway, The action is actually clamped in the aluminum block so pillars wouldnt really do much?

I was more comparing it to glass bedding since the 3d accustock essentially is trying to do the same thing.

#1, no you don't need to re head space when just changing bolt bodies.
#5, shoot them first to determine if it's needed.

Which one of the fluted bolt bodies, the SSS "fishnet" or the PTG spiral? Do NOT get a straight flute, Savage found it grinds on the rounds below.

What length barrel did you get, the 20 or 25 inch ones?

Yes you will have to reset the head space, easy job with Go/NO Go gages and the Savage nut wrench.

A really cool tactical aluminum chassis would be cool, but won't make it shoot better.

You got a GREAT DEAL, enjoy them.

You can order the Tubbs finishing system could possibly help some. I just shot mine and cleaned every 20 rounds. Shoots 126, 147, 150, 155, 168, and 175 grain bullets ALL sub MOA. Really likes the 168 and 175 SMKs.

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I cant see how these new accustock blocks look really precise.

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See above! I am not touching anything as it is perfect for me.

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Is it worth dumpin $300

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Not unless you want to shoot 0.19 MOA all the time. That is my best 4 shot group.

yeah, I was thinking a spiral flute, Im not a big fan of the fishnet, looks like it would be a ***** to clean if anything got in there.

I got 4 20" barrels and 2 24" ones

I need to pick up those parts as I want to start to tinker with the guns a bit, I also want to set the headspace at an absolute mininum.

I am really debating bondo jobbing my synthetic stock on one of them anyway to see hoe that comes out. Just cant bring myself to buy a 500+ dollar stock when my entire rifle didnt cost that lol. Plus I really want to use the 3d bedding system in these stocks it looks really well designed and Savage designed it specifically for these actions with i assume alot of RD and time involved so I dont think any other chassis system could really improve on it much.... opinions?

I just dont like the look and feel of the standard stock.

I mean one of the guns I want to be my range queen so if I can get that low of groups from that i am all for it, Just wondering if loading my own ammo would produce around the same result without spending that money on 'vodo' I may or may not see.

Thanks! I grabed all I could. I may just shoot all of them keep the best of the 3 and sell the rest lol...

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Originally Posted by LureM In

Oh I have done pillar bedding, I've got a lathe and made some custom ones and did a tutorial on here about it, wouldnt it be unproductive to pillar bed the accustock I would think since its a 3d bedding system anyway, The action is actually clamped in the aluminum block so pillars wouldnt really do much?

I was more comparing it to glass bedding since the 3d accustock essentially is trying to do the same thing.

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I never meant to suggest pillar bedding the accustock. What I meant to say was it would likely be much more work to remove the aluminum bedding in the accustock and try to install it into the tacticool stock than it is worth. Tacticool is a wood laminate stock. If you go with the tacticool, just bed the action (including pillars) and the barrel channel so the barrel is free floated. I don't see any advantage to trying to use an aluminum skeleton in the tacticool, especially one designed for a different stock.

Oops! I see I DID say bed the Accustock. I meant bed the Tacticool. Sorry.

lol no worries, yeah I think im going to try to modify the accustock. and see how that goes :) will be much cheaper that way as well.

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Originally Posted by LureM In

Plus I really want to use the 3d bedding system in these stocks it looks really well designed and Savage designed it specifically for these actions with i assume alot of RD and time involved so I dont think any other chassis system could really improve on it much.... opinions?

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You might want to start a new thread asking for opinions specifically relating to the accustock and the merits of the 3d technology. You may get more responses from some knowledgeable folks here by addressing this specific question.

Just a suggestion.

Probably a good idea. thanks lol I just had multiple questions.

Do not think of the 10TR as a $500 rifle. It easily surpasses rifles above $1200.

Check out the prices of Savages in 308 with metal DBMs, accu-trigger and accustock. Then add $60 for the bolt handle, $125 for the muzzle threading, another $100 for the 5R, and another $40 for the EGW rail.

1. If you have the bolt done from your rifle and put that same bolt back into that same rifle, no, headspacing will be fine. If you buy an aftermarket body (PTG) or you send your bolts off and swap them all out, then you will need to check the headspace. It may be okay, but it at least needs to be checked.

2. I think there are very few instances where firelapping is a good idea, but I would never firelap a 5R barrel. Personally, I'd just shoot them and if you want to for the first few cleanings you could use JB Bore Cleaning Compound. That would accomplish two things. First, it would ensure you got the bore truly clean. Second, it might help smooth out any minor roughness.

3. I've never known of anyone trying to remove the AccuStock's chassis and put it into another stock. Years of shooting laminated stocks with pillars and Devcon bedding have shown me they are just as capable as any "chassis system" when it comes to shooting well.

4. The AccuStock is a pretty good stock and is far superior to the old tupperware stocks, but it is not the same as a quality aftermarket stock with aluminum bedding block.

5. The only thing that I think is "worth it" to pay someone else to do is to have SSS true and time the action if it is a rifle you intend to use a lot. It is not necessary, but if it's a rifle you use a lot it sure is nice.

This is true, makes you wonder why they got rid of the 450$ rifle so quick lol... Im sure they saw a loss in some of the other high dollar rifles. Do you have any experience with the 5r? Is it better than the conventional rifling they use

squirrelsniper: Thanks for the info. just want to ask...

Why wouldnt you want to fire lap a 5r barrel? Dont mean to question you at all just wondering why not that specific one?
Do you think the aftermarket beddling blocks surpass the one built by savage in the accustock? What are you stock reccomendations? looking for a vertical grip hook style tacticool type stock.

I will be using it quite a bit, is that true and time seperate from there acurizing package? and do you recommend doing this prior to shooting or see what it produces untouched? Thanks


I also want to know if there is any aftermarket 10rd mags that will fit this bottom metal? I sure would rather not spend 250$ on just a piece of metal where it allows me to use 10rd magazines.

I know you desire to tinker with your rifles but the 10TR is a real sweetheart just the way it comes. My advice would be to follow a shoot clean shoot clean break in while zeroing your scope and then run some Federal gold medal match through it. If you aren't impressed with the results then my guess would be that you aren't easily impressed.
Bling can always come later.

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Originally Posted by brasse

Which one of the fluted bolt bodies, the SSS "fishnet" or the PTG spiral? Do NOT get a straight flute, Savage found it grinds on the rounds below.

What length barrel did you get, the 20 or 25 inch ones?

Yes you will have to reset the head space, easy job with Go/NO Go gages and the Savage nut wrench.

A really cool tactical aluminum chassis would be cool, but won't make it shoot better.

You got a GREAT DEAL, enjoy them.

You can order the Tubbs finishing system could possibly help some. I just shot mine and cleaned every 20 rounds. Shoots 126, 147, 150, 155, 168, and 175 grain bullets ALL sub MOA. Really likes the 168 and 175 SMKs.
See above! I am not touching anything as it is perfect for me.

Not unless you want to shoot 0.19 MOA all the time. That is my best 4 shot group.

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No you do "not" have to reset head space, if you only change the bolt body. If you send them out, just make sure you put the same bolt back in. Just match the serial #'s. Hence the reason they don't put the serial # on the rest of the bolt parts.

Big Jeep is right on. my 10TR shoots sub .75 moa with Federal gold medal match 168gr all day long and some better.
Kelly

I have an HS precision stock with the aluminum bedding block and love it . I wanted a McMillan but it wasn't in stock . I'm kinda glad now . I don't like chassis stocks because to me they look like star wars guns . I would keep 1 long and 1 short to have the best of both worlds. As for paying somebody to work on my rifle , nope I got it , and it drives tac's .I polished my cocking ramp and installed a stockade lift kit to solve my bolt lift problems . I hate you for getting that smokin deal on those rifles , you lucky dog . So get off the computer and go shoot .

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Originally Posted by RP12

No you do "not" have to reset head space, if you only change the bolt body. If you send them out, just make sure you put the same bolt back in. Just match the serial #'s. Hence the reason they don't put the serial # on the rest of the bolt parts.

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Whoa! That's some bad advice! If you don't think there are variances/tolerances in the lengths of bolt bodies you're gravely mistaken my friend. Contrary to popular belief we do not live in a perfect world and simply because parts are CNC machined does not mean they're all going to be identical.

Bolt bodies are made from long sticks of round tube stock using a Swiss CNC machine. They pretty much function like this...

http://www.micromanufacturing.com/si...s%20a_opt.jpeg

It's not uncommon at all for the feed portion of the machine to slip a little, especially when you consider the steel tubing is smooth and often times will have some type of lubricant or coating on it to prevent corrosion. Factory bolt heads are made on the same type of machine.

I've personally seen bolt bodies that were as much a 0.35" short that Savage sent out to a retailer as replacement parts. Why would Savage send a defective part out? Simple, they didn't know it was defective because it had never been assembled into a complete bolt and tried in an action.

Savage bolt assemblies are put together in their own area of the factory. The assembled bolts are then mated up to an action that comes from another area of the factory. If an assembler tries a bolt in an action and it won't function properly they just set it aside and grab another bolt until they get one that works in that action. When the next action comes along they try that first bolt again. If it works great, if not they try another one. The process repeats until the end of the shift at which time they disassemble the ones that haven't fit into any action and take the parts back to the bolt assembly area where they'll go into a new assembly with some different parts and through the whole process again.

Pretty much all of the bolt parts are outsourced to various shops and holding a tight spec isn't real high on the priority list. The Savage was designed from it's inception to be very forgiving when it comes to tolerances.

This is why you ALWAYS need to recheck your headspace if you change either the bolt body or the bolt head. Nine times out of ten it will probably be fine, but there's always that 1 in 10 chance that your new part is out of spec enough to cause a problem. Always better to be safe than sorry.

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Originally Posted by LureM In

squirrelsniper: Thanks for the info. just want to ask...

Why wouldnt you want to fire lap a 5r barrel? Dont mean to question you at all just wondering why not that specific one?
Do you think the aftermarket beddling blocks surpass the one built by savage in the accustock? What are you stock reccomendations? looking for a vertical grip hook style tacticool type stock.

I will be using it quite a bit, is that true and time seperate from there acurizing package? and do you recommend doing this prior to shooting or see what it produces untouched? Thanks


I also want to know if there is any aftermarket 10rd mags that will fit this bottom metal? I sure would rather not spend 250$ on just a piece of metal where it allows me to use 10rd magazines.

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The 5R rifling is a bit different than the regular "flat" lands normally used in rifling. 5R has a slight radius on the lands so I worry a lot more about what could happen should the firelapping actually remove some metal from the lands.

Most aftermarket bedding blocks are superior to the AccuStock in my opinion. The only thing to keep in mind if you plan to change is that the rifles with AccuStocks use a kind of small recoil lug. Many people that switch stocks also switch to a different recoil lug at the same time (which of course requires barrel removal/reinstallation). I think HS Precision stocks offers some of the best bedding block stocks for a high yet reasonable price. There are better options but they run about twice what you payed per rifle. The Choate Tactical are quality stocks at a reasonable price, but they are quite heavy compared to many others.

The SSS "time and true" is basically a standard "blueprinting" of the action, making sure all critical surfaces are as they should be and fixing them if they're not. At the same time (and what I feel really makes it worth it) Fred does his magical work on the bolt which makes bolt lift lighter and smoother. And since the barrel has to be removed for all this work, when the barrel is re-installed it is set at minimum headspace. Personally I would shoot the rifle first and see if I even wanted to do anything to it, but one thing to keep in mind, there is usually a long waiting list for SSS gunsmithing services, so if you decide you want the true and time it's not like you can have it done in a day or two.

SSS modifies centerfeed detachable mags to hold 9rds of 308. However they are kind of high since it requires a factory mag (which is already kind of high) and then the SSS mods. If you plan on having a bunch of mags, you might come out cheaper just buying expensive bottom metal and then using more common and cheaper mags. Also, over on Snipershide, I know there are some other people who have done mag work/extensions, but I don't remember specifics, but a search over there might turn up more options.

Forgive me everyone for the "bad/ wrong" advice. I'll shut up now. I promise.

I have been thinking about this for a couple of days. WOW Mr. Baker, greatly appreciated information.

My thoughts are the total length of the bolt assembly consists of the bolt head, front baffle, spring washer, bolt body, rear baffle.

This assembly has a set dimension when the bolt handle is closed, plus the headspace (min,max, no go). I would be willing to bet Savage assembles different rifles with different head spacing on purpose. My 10TR was MUCH tighter than my 223 or Creedmoor.

If any of these parts have a different length the headspace dimension will be different. The two items changed most are the bolt head and the bolt body. My two Savages in 6.8 both have SSS fluted bolts but one bolt head from PTG and one from Mauser Man. The two SSS bolts were exactly the same length, but were slightly different from the stock Savage bolts replaced.

Since you can check head space in less than 5 minutes, it is just the right thing to do.

Thanks stangfish.

As Stangfish pointed out, the biggest problem that can occur with swapping bolt bodies is getting a bolt body that is longer than your previous one. If it is way too long, the locking lugs can possibly be too far forward to make proper contact in the action.

This is easily checked as it will show up as shortened headspace.

But, if it happened, you didn't check it, you had some factory or FL-sized ammo short enough to chamber, and you were somehow unlucky enough to actually fire it, you would be putting unbelievable stress on the bolt body and then on the bolt lugs and action as the pressure slammed the lugs back into the action.

While I admit you'd have to be unlucky for all the stars to line up and everything go wrong enough to hurt anything/anybody, but at the same time it is so simple to check headspace that it's not worth the chance.

Remember: Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups.

Ok, I got it. Now lets just for giggles ask this question. If the bolt body "was" to long, forcing the lug forward in the action. You now have a space between the action and the rear of the lugs, no ? Ok, now you re head space from there, you have just head spaced with that gap. Or are you saying that your going to crank the barrel down tight enough to crush the to long bolt body back with the gauge ? I'm just ask'in. I know good question, right ?

The breech of your barrel never touches the face of your bolt head when you set the headspace - there will always be a small gap there with any factory or pre-fit aftermarket barrel that's been chambered to the proper depth. Any variance in length of the bolt body or bolt head in critical areas will affect the size of that gap.

So lets say your new assembly is 0.100" longer than your original one (exaggerated for effect). With the barrel still at the old headspace the face of the bolt head would hit the breech of the barrel before the bolt handle was lined up with the notch in the action to allow it to close and more than likely the cocking piece pin wouldn't be lined up with the sear.

Conversely...

Lets say the new assembly is 0.100" shorter than your original one (again, exaggerated for effect). When you inserted the bolt into the action and pushed it forward you wouldn't be able to rotate it closed because the full length of the bolt head lugs wouldn't have cleared the raceway yet. If the bolt did still manage to rotate and go into battery your headspace would now be 0.100" longer than it was before which more than likely would result in a case separation.

You all need to stop thinking like every single part you'll ever get from Savage will be 100% uniform and consistent - that's not the case, it never has been and it never will be. You have multiple parts that each have their own tolerance of +/- 0.010 to 0.025" each, and when you add up each parts individual tolerance the overall tolerance for the total assembly can be +/- 0.050" to 0.75" easy. Then factor in that the action itself has tolerances that will also affect this and it should become blatantly clear that you just can't mix and match parts without a care in the world expecting them to all just magically work together perfectly.

If you're building an engine you still check bearing clearances and ring gaps, crank and camshaft end play, etc. even though all the parts are CNC machined and are designed for that specific engine and are supposedly 100% interchangeable, so what makes you think you don't need to take the same care when swapping out parts on your Savage? You get lazy and build a bad engine it blows up and leaves you stranded - you get lazy and build a bad rifle it will blow up and probably take parts of you with it.

Sounds to me like the bottom line (if I may be so blunt) is:

If you're going to go swapping out parts that could possibly affect HS, what's cheaper? A set of go/no-go gages? Or a new stock (or maybe a finger or your eye)? Or at the very least, a (possibly permanent) flinch?

If it were me, I think I would always check headspace before firing...kind of like always making sure the rifle is unloaded before monkeying with it.

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Originally Posted by stangfish

I am waiting to hear of an incident to where someone found an issue with head space that they would not have found by chambering a cartridge.

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If there was too much headspace (i.e., if the breech face was too far back, making the chamber too long), wouldn't the cartridge chamber just fine?

And then when the firing pin struck the primer, couldn't it drive the cartridge forward far enough before the cartridge headspaced on the shoulder so that when the case expanded and stuck to the sides of the chamber, there could be a gap between the case head and the breech face that would be too long for the case to "stretch to fit"...possibly causing a head separation and leakage of the Magic Smoke?

Or would the extractor be enough to hold the cartridge from moving forward too far?

Not trying to argue here; just trying to make sure I understand headspace accurately.

You are right with your question, but we are talking about the effects of a to long or to short bolt body, and if it affects head space.

OK, thanks. I guess I'm just not familiar enough with the Savage bolt and action yet to comment except in a general way. (Still waiting for my Savage rifle to arrive.) Sorry, Lure M In, if I dragged the thread OT.

Well I checked with the expert (Fred at SSS) and he says the bolt body has nothing to do with head space.

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Originally Posted by RP12

Well I checked with the expert (Fred at SSS) and he says the bolt body has nothing to do with head space.

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It's been said before, on more than one occasion, and argued with every time. With as much DIY as goes on around here you would think people would take the time to understand headspace and what affects it, but for the most part they don't.

Well I didnt get any notifications of this thread and misse a bunch lol...

Well anyway, I havent been able to shoot the guns yet. I just got done getting about 10 different match ammo brands/weights to see what it likes. I was debating modifying the accustock to save some money and make it look/fit better but I probably will just put them for sale and buy a new one.

Do you keep your stock bottom metal when going to a aftermarket stock?

I sent my bolt of to PPR to have the bolt fluted and made a deal with him, Very cool guy and a one man operation. Turn around time was 2 weeks instead of a " I cant tell you a time" from SSS which I thought was pretty lame.

Hopefully will get to the range this week and see what she does. Going to use an old but have been good millet LRS, Really want to get a night force for one of them, If the bank accnt allows. I am thinking of doing this to one of the rifles ( picture below) I just did this last week to my savage 17hmr.

http://www.use.com/images/s_2/98d6d7...3917f580_1.jpg


http://www.use.com/images/s_2/98d6d7...d=603804334997


http://www.use.com/images/s_2/98d6d7...d=772247713989


http://www.use.com/images/s_2/98d6d7...d=208064865553


http://www.use.com/images/s_2/98d6d7...d=862317632650

That looks cool.

Bottom metal, trigger guard, etc. is not normally sold with the stock. It can be, of course. It may be worth more than the stock, though. I'd say keep it, you'll probably need it for whatever else you get. Can always sell later in the classifieds here.