Annealing temperature

Case annealing sites recommend both 650* & 700* tempilac as a temp. indicator for neck/ shoulder area. Which do you use? Why? Also, do you use 475* tempilac on base of case to insure not overheating base. ............ Trying to establish time & temp standards for various cartridges. I use a variable speed drill w/ Hornady case holder (heat sync) & bernzomatic permanently supported w/ 1.25 inch to 1.50 inch cone w/ cone tip touching mid shoulder..... What techniques have been successful for you & this method? All input appreciated. Thanks, Dale

1. Turn on torch
2. Put case in socket, start spinning, put flame on case shoulder.
3. Count to 11, watching to ensure the neck does not glow red.

(You should see a blue color form on the case body just below the shoulder.)

4. Drop case on flat surface to cool.

gotcha...

Sounds like we are doing almost identical techniques, but I do not use the tempilac. For good or bad, I use "color" change (to blue) as my indicator and it is almost always right at 20 seconds. I drop the case into a cool water batch to quench.

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't quenching the case harden it just like quenching to temper steel? I thought you annealed metal by heating it and cooling it slowly. ???

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Originally Posted by Werewolf

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't quenching the case harden it just like quenching to temper steel? I thought you annealed metal by heating it and cooling it slowly. ???

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Nope - copper isn't like iron or steel and doesn't harden when quenched after heating. Really doesn't matter how you cool it as long as you don't let it get TOO hot (which will ruin it and is why people water quench to quickly cool it down).

I have used the tempilac to establish my routine, but do not use it anymore because I find it very hard to remove all of it once it melts/ dries. I also use the Hornady case holder, a small battery powered cordless screwdriver(less than $10 at WalMart), a propane torch, and a pan of water. I insert the case (.308's) into the dark blue cone of the flame at the neck/ shoulder junction, with the cordless drill on slow speed, for 13 sec. Then I dump the case into the pan of water immediately to stop the flow of heat to the case head. I also dip the case holder in the water to cool it. Having a small amount of water in the case holder is extra insurance against overheating the case head.
Edit: note- time required will vary with the intensity of the flame.
There is very good info about annealing on 6mmbr.com.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

BTW, I got the bright idea to get an infrared heat "gun" to check the temp. of the brass. Didn't work. My guess is that the narrow, rounded surface of the brass confounds the heat gun's brain.? Found lots of other uses for it, though, most notably for checking the temp of the cooking oil when frying.

Thanks for the input y'all. My problem is I'm color blind. I use the tempilaq cause I can't detect the dull maroon color 'til it's too late ??? Also have found that different brands of brass exhibit different colors when annealed. Some gray, others a brassy gold color yet others a purple color. At least that's what my wife tells me ;).......... I use a cheap electronic metronome to "time" ea. case. I have 650* tempilaq and since annealing (according to Ken Light) takes place at 750* plus, was thinking of using the 700* on nk. to mid-body & the 475* on base to insure it doesn't get too hot...... Has anyone experimented w/ this? I'm presently working w/ 6.5X47L cases and see only a brassy color from mouth to 3/8 th below shoulder(about 7.5 sec's). I overheated one on purpose (bright orange neck) & still got no blue,gray,purple color. I suppose this could be a trait of Lapua brass. I do get VERY feint blue color on neck that can only be seen under certain light conditions. Again, just wondering what others are doing. Keep the ideas coming! I need all the help I can get ;D

Another thought, ..... How do you adjust your torch temp? Put it on full blast? Make note of cone length & try to duplicate? I'm not sure about this and wonder if increasing cone length actually increases heat substantially. Anybody?

I set the torch cone length to about 1 inch. Use a Lee trimmer case holder in a cordless screwdriver. Neck/shoulder junction at an angle away from the flame.

10 secs for 223/25-20 brass.

11 secs for 243 brass.

12 secs for 270/30-06/308 brass.

Remove from heat for 1 sec. Dunk the case mouth in a bucket of water so I can put it in the plastic rack without melting the rack.

Tip: removing the primers keeps a 'vapor lock' from forming in the case when you dunk it and they dry much quicker

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...69#Post1046869

Cool homemade automatic annealer

Random thought....wonder if a laser thermometer would pick up the different temps as you heated?

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Originally Posted by gotcha

Another thought, ..... How do you adjust your torch temp? Put it on full blast? Make note of cone length & try to duplicate? I'm not sure about this and wonder if increasing cone length actually increases heat substantially. Anybody?

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Make note of cone length and try to duplicate. Increasing cone length would increase heat output (but not necessarily temperature), resulting in faster heating of the brass. Put the tempilac in the places you mentioned, set your torch to an easily duplicated flame length, and have at it. After 4-5 tries it should become apparent where the sweet spot is. Steel wool will probably be required to remove the tempilac. Fwiw, I too use Lapua brass and haven't noticed much color change; mostly just slight dulling after it cools. If you grossly overheat one, as you intentionally did, take it after it cools and squeeze the neck with pliers. It will be noticeably soft and "dead". You do NOT want it like that. It should still be fairly resistant to crushing, with some springback.

I guess that, short of having analysis done by a trained metallurgist with expensive equipment, we "shade tree annealers" really have no definitive way of knowing if we got it just right or not. But too little is definitely better than too much. And keeping the head/web/body area cool is absolutely critical for safety reasons. You don't want the lower portion of the case to lose any of it's original strength, or it may fail on firing. Other than that, if it resizes easier and/or shoots better, you are probably doing it right.

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Originally Posted by Blue Avenger

Random thought....wonder if a laser thermometer would pick up the different temps as you heated?

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That's what I was referring to in post #6. It didnt work for me.

First, thanks for EVERYONES input! I've read the Ken light article @ 6mm BR. The "how to's" @ ballistic edge & Bench-scource etc. All of these machines use dual torches. Seems their philosophy is to heat the nk/shoulder as quickly as possible to reduce the heat reaching the case head & eliminate the need for quenching. Timing their videos, their dwell times are in the range of 4.5 to 6.5 secs............W/ single torch I'm using about 7 to 9 secs which has worked fine w/ .257AI, 6mmAI & 22/250 w/ no quenching. ( If it sizes better & shoots better you're probabley doing it right: Barrelnut) .223's I quench & dry @ 250* on cookie sheet in oven when my wife isn't home 8) ........ I'm gonna try the 700*(Neck) & 475*(base) tempilaq & see what kind of results I get. I'll forget about coloration & concentrate on getting primo indicator results. BTW, If your brass has lost its shine in the annealed area you're probaley too hot or on the verge of too hot according to Ken Light. Keep those cards n' letters coming folks. You might teach an old dog a new trick ;)

I use 750, 650 and 400 all on the same test cases. The 750 goes on the neck and to the junction of where the shoulder meets the body. The 650 goes from mid shoulder to about 1/2" below the edge of the shoudler, and the 400 goes from the head to about three quarters up the body.

Using a Bench Source annealer w/dual tourches 22-250 cases take 3.6 - 3.7 seconds, 6mm Rem/ 6mmAI take 3.4, and 6mm Coyote (wildcat from a 6.5x47) takes 3.6-3.7 seconds. The blue pencil thin flame is about 3/4" away from the cartridge neck/shoulder area on both tourches.

The 750 is melted down the neck and about 1/2 way down the shoulder, the 650 starts where the 750 left off and is melted from mid shoulder to about a eight of an inch down the body and the 400 might have just started to burn where it takes over for the 650 which leaves about 80% of the remaining case wall untouched by any damaging heat.

I had a half dozen 30.06 cases to anneal. Instead of setting up the drill, bucket of quench and so on, I did them by rotating the case between my thumb & first finger in the propane heat & dipped them in my iced tea as soon as the case was hot enough to make me want to drop it. The color was perfect. Approx. 8 to 9 seconds will do it.
And yes, I did finish drinking the tea. Waste not, want not....

By the way, I set the flame differently depending on the brand. I notice Rem cases take a little longer so I set the flame a little higher to cover more area. Fed seems to go the fastest so the flame is the lowest.

The few times I overcooked a case or two, the still worked. Not necessarily as good as I would have liked, but they still work.

My S.O.P. is the drill & socket method. I have it down to a science for the different brands. Propane is my fuel of choice. Slow rotation on hi heat gets it done. Water to cool instead of iced tea. Look for the dull bluish color. Any indication of red, stop immediately. Every third firing.

Mmmm... lead laced tea.

Hey, Don't knock it. Maybe it puts lead in his "pencil" too :D.... Just kiddin' Fred.... 'preciate the input!

That's Frank gettin the lead in his pencil, Dale! I know, Frank, Fred, too many F 's...:)

Fred.. Frank... Irving... I'm not that particular what y'all call me.
And stop making fun of my Lead / Brass Flavored Iced Tea. :o We've got a marketing strategy we're trying to protect....

Wait'll you try the Hornady One Shot Wax Flavored Cookies. They ought to make a big hit around the holidays...

Power Pistol Pistachio?... Anyone?...

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Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

Wait'll you try the Hornady One Shot Wax Flavored Cookies. They ought to make a big hit around the holidays...

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Probably the best use yet for this stuff! Be aware, every third cookie will stick firmly to the pan, requiring the purchase of a new "Stuck Cookie Extractor" gadget!

...as the saying goes,

"Just a pinch (23.2 grains to be exact) of Varget between the cheek and gum..."

but I digress. What was this thread about?

I am thinking of making myself an annealing machine some day.

Thomae... This started as an annealing thread. It seems to have taken a slight turn toward "Recipes for the Discriminating Savage Shooter"..

Lord only knows where it could go from here... :o

If you do come up with some kind of contraption such as the Thomae Auto-Annealer or the like, do share. You never know. There may be a few good ideas here to help the project along.

Personally, I kinda like doing everything by hand. It gives me the opportunity to inspect the cases many times. After a few incidents I had with Winchester products, I use extra caution.

WHOA! ..... For a minute I thought I'd just logged in @ the Paula Deen forum ::) Thanks for ALL the input! I'll be trying many of these ideas as soon as the blisters on my finger tips heal. (thanks Frank!)

Ya see... Now you know how long to hold it.

Did I forget to mention I would hold the glass of iced tea between heating the cases to cool off my digits?

LOL! Guess I missed that part ??? So.......... now I have to deal with blisters AND frostbite?

Here is how the old timers of my youth did it. Get a shallow pan that will hold about an inch of water. Stand the cases in the pan butt down. Heat the necks-shoulders that blue-grey color with a berz-o-matic torch with a pencil flame nozzle and tip over into the water. Nice shiney cases right out of the tumbler are easier to see the color on. Been doing it for yrs, seems to work OK.

El Lobo

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Originally Posted by ellobo

Here is how the old timers of my youth did it. Get a shallow pan that will hold about an inch of water. Stand the cases in the pan butt down. Heat the necks-shoulders that blue-grey color with a berz-o-matic torch with a pencil flame nozzle and tip over into the water. Nice shiney cases right out of the tumbler are easier to see the color on. Been doing it for yrs, seems to work OK.

El Lobo

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+1, that's the way I did it years ago. I do like the Tempilaq method though, lets me know what the heat is doing at critical areas of the case.

I did some 308 cases yesterday (LC 71 Match) that came out good.

Update, decided to go w/ Coverdogs advise since I already had 650* tempilaq. W/ single torch I duplicated his results by starting at a short dwell time then allowing case to cool completely. Continued to increase dwell time in 6/10th sec. increments followed by complete cooling. Got perfect Tempilaq readings @ 6 sec's........ 1&1/4" cone length, tip of cone 1&1/8" from center of case holder...... Color on the Lapua 6.5X47L cases was a beautiful gold ( I can see gold :D) W/ a thin ( 1/8") blue stripe 3/16" below shoulder. Critical casehead DIDN'T overheat..... Necks passed the "springback" test. Why the gold color? damedifiknow!....... Maybe cause I didn't quench in Iced tea ::) Next step, ( I'm OCD too) a 20 lb. propane tank w/ "t" fitting & two torch heads. If I don't end up burning down the garage, I'll let y'all know how it works out....Coverdog... Thanks for the excellent advise. Dale