Struggling with a new Savage.

Guys I need some help figuring out what Im not seeing here.

A few months ago, in preparation for an upcoming Moose hunt, i bought a brand new Savage 111 Trophy Hunter package rifle in .300 Win Mag that came with a pretty nice Nikon Prostaff BDC scope and bottom line is I cannot get this gun to shoot worth a darn! It prints shots all over the place, high, low, left and right for no apparent reason and without any scope adjustments. At first i suspected a bad scope so I swapped it out with 2 other scopes...No change. Next I tried 2 different base and ring combinations, a leupold and a DNZ...No Change. Next came ammo, 180 gr Remington premier core-lokt, 180 gr Federal Trophy Copper, 150 gr Interlock Hornady American Whitetail. 180 gr Hornady Superformance Interbond and even a few hand loads with 180 gr Nosler Accubonds...No change.
So finally I box it up and send it back (minus the scope) to Savage hoping that its something they can fix. A month later i get it back with a brand new Nikon Scope mounted on top and a determination letter explaining that I must have had a bad scope and stapled to the letter was a nice little target with a 3 shot 1.3 inch group. AWESOME! Im back in business!

Today I head out to the range with my lead sled and bag of assorted ammo boxes. I shoot 3 shot groups with each one...NO CHANGE! Best I can do is 3.8" inch group with most being 4-5". All my shooting was done from a lead sled at 100 yd which is also how Savage's Range Master tested the gun.

Im stumped and need some help. What am I missing?

Have you tried shooting a group without the sled?
Reason I asked is that I have tried using a sled a couple of times with no success
Jack

I have a sled and went back to the bags, they are to short and the stock and barrel stick way to to far over the front rest, I lengthen the sled six inches, so the stock is right on they edge of the front rest, It helped a lot but I never get as good of groupings as when I use the bags, although I am glad that I have my sled, since I am always swapping scopes around and they are excellent, for looking down the bore and the scope with out moving anything to get back on paper, stick to the bags.

Tanks Dean

What ammo did Savage get their group with?

Also, a lot the trouble sounds a lot like shooting technique. If it's not caused by the sled then I would suspect that you're flinching, worrying about scope eye, or not doing a good follow through.

I have to go with the MOD on this one, have someone else take a couple of shots that will be a good tell tale sign,
for a second there I thought someone was worried about me, LOL

Dean

Like the others, I'd suggest trying it without the lead sled. If the recoil is getting to you, try using shooting vest with a a built in recoil pad or a sand bag between you shoulder and the stock. I've used a sandbag when working up 458 Win Mag loads from the bench.

Andrew

Try a different shooter. Then a different ammo. Process of elimination.

Every time I have had a problem with shots going everywhere it was because SOMETHING was loose. Not trying to insult, but have you checked all your screws to make sure something isn't bottomed out? Scope bases, ring mounts, action screws. Is the recoil lug seated against the stock? Just throwing stuff out there.

The Savage test shooters use a steel bench that incorporates a pneumatic vise, quite different from a lead sled. The sled is your problem.

You: 300 win mag does not shoot tight groups.
Me: What kind of scope?
You: Nikon Prostaff BDC scope
ME: :nono:

This is a 223 scope at best. More like a rimfire scope. Try a Monarch, Elite, VX3, Weaver Grand Slam or even a Vortex Viper just get something a little tougher than that.

Savage testing may not allow the recoil to punish the scope like your field test.

A Nikon Prostaff should easily handle 300WM...Nightforce it isn't, but they aren't exactly junk either.

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Originally Posted by IUOE

Guys I need some help figuring out what Im not seeing here.

A few months ago, in preparation for an upcoming Moose hunt, i bought a brand new Savage 111 Trophy Hunter package rifle in .300 Win Mag that came with a pretty nice Nikon Prostaff BDC scope and bottom line is I cannot get this gun to shoot worth a darn! It prints shots all over the place, high, low, left and right for no apparent reason and without any scope adjustments. At first i suspected a bad scope so I swapped it out with 2 other scopes...No change. Next I tried 2 different base and ring combinations, a leupold and a DNZ...No Change. Next came ammo, 180 gr Remington premier core-lokt, 180 gr Federal Trophy Copper, 150 gr Interlock Hornady American Whitetail. 180 gr Hornady Superformance Interbond and even a few hand loads with 180 gr Nosler Accubonds...No change.
So finally I box it up and send it back (minus the scope) to Savage hoping that its something they can fix. A month later i get it back with a brand new Nikon Scope mounted on top and a determination letter explaining that I must have had a bad scope and stapled to the letter was a nice little target with a 3 shot 1.3 inch group. AWESOME! Im back in business!

Today I head out to the range with my lead sled and bag of assorted ammo boxes. I shoot 3 shot groups with each one...NO CHANGE! Best I can do is 3.8" inch group with most being 4-5". All my shooting was done from a lead sled at 100 yd which is also how Savage's Range Master tested the gun.

Im stumped and need some help. What am I missing?

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Well if they can do it you should be able to do it too. I agree with JCalhoun your probably flinching.

No-one suggested to check if there is barrel contact with the stock. Do the dollar bill slid under the barrel its length to see if ther is contact. How often do you let the barrel cool between groups? A very warm barrel can move enough to contact the stock If with the dollar bill test you would have only .003 of clearance. Check that the mounting screws are tightened to 40-45 inch lbs then do the dollar bill test again.

El Lobo

If you can find out what ammo they sent down the barrel for test firing, then I think it,ll serve as a a good tool for you

Seems like 2 basic ideas here, the sled and the shooter. Im going to start with the sled before having to swallow my pride. I'm no world class shooter but I'm fairly certain i've been doing my part at the bench. I have certainly checked all the hardware and everything is lock tired. Barrel clearance is great as well as the tang that took a little sanding to obtain proper clearance. I'll be at the bench again next friday and I'll report back the results but in the mean time keep those thoughts coming.

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Originally Posted by eddiesindian

If you can find out what ammo they sent down the barrel for test firing, then I think it,ll serve as a a good tool for you

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Winchester 180 gr Ballistic silvertips. But would that really be that big of a difference from what I've ran down the barrel?

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Originally Posted by IUOE

Winchester 180 gr Ballistic silvertips. But would that really be that big of a difference from what I've ran down the barrel?

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It could be
But before I tried to find some of that ammo I would still shoot the rifle without the sled
You would then be able to confirm whether or not the sled is the problem and go from there
Jack

The owner's manual says they use the Winchester 180 grain ballistic silver tip. sorry didn't realize someone had already published the kind of ammo.

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Originally Posted by BoilerUP

A Nikon Prostaff should easily handle 300WM...Nightforce it isn't, but they aren't exactly junk either.

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Im no snob but that is exactly what they are. That is my opinion and it is only worth $.02. The glass is good and clear, the design quality isn't. If it was, they would not have to make the Buckmaster or Monarch line.

I agree with the bags. I agree that flinching is possible. Have someone at the range load your rounds putting an empty case in there every now and then.

Try the prostaff on a proven shooter or try a better scope on the WM. Won't cost you a penny.

Getting back on topic.

If Savage produced a good group with that particular ammo you should be able to get similar results. Try shooting without the sled first to see if that makes a change.

There was some question on how those groups are attained. If they have a guy shoot them off of a rest then it should be able to be duplicated. If it is clamped into a heavy vise then the human factor or the scope is not relavent.

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Originally Posted by IUOE

Winchester 180 gr Ballistic silvertips. But would that really be that big of a difference from what I've ran down the barrel?

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yes, but id do as advised..shoot it with a bipod/bags
you know for a fact that Savage has found there 300,s favorite weight and speed of projectiles

If you decide that your shooting technique is getting to you ,I would suggest a muzzle brake.My friend has a winchester short mag wildcatted with heavy bullets and had a break put on this one at my bequest and when the rifle was finished we shot it.Not only can I shoot way under an inch but it feels like a .243 with the felt recoil.A good brake will not interfere with accuracy whatsoever.I implor you to do this and save your shoulder and shooting will be great fun with it instead of punishing.I have shot everything up to the 50 bmg without a brake in a heavy barrel gun for hog hunting and let me tell you that a good quality brake will end all your frustration and make your hunting trip way more enjoyable.I would call gre-tan and holland gunsmithing to see what their backlog is and believe it or not barnes bullet company doea them at a reasonable cost with good turn around time included.Dont worry about extra noise as you can wear walker quad muffs or something similar if the noise is to much for you and with that caliber it would be a good idea anyways.Look into it as it will be the best money spent and have a friend or somebody at a club near you shoot it first to see if the thing shoots good enough off bags or good quality rests before you spend the money.If it doesnt shoot good go to mcgowens barrel outlet and order a good barrel with a muzzle break and rest assured you will have a delightful rifle that will last a lifetime with excellent accuracy.I know its new and savage should maybe rebarrel it but it will be a production barrel all over again.I have replaced so many factory barrels and the first time around I wasnt happy about spending more money for something new,so now with what I know I do it all the time I get a lousy shooter and say the heak with warranty.

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Originally Posted by IUOE

Seems like 2 basic ideas here, the sled and the shooter. Im going to start with the sled before having to swallow my pride. I'm no world class shooter but I'm fairly certain i've been doing my part at the bench. I have certainly checked all the hardware and everything is lock tired. Barrel clearance is great as well as the tang that took a little sanding to obtain proper clearance. I'll be at the bench again next friday and I'll report back the results but in the mean time keep those thoughts coming.

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How do you shoot other centerfires? Do you have .308 or .30-06 that shoots well in your hands?

I've never shot off a lead sled. I have put a past shield over my shoulder shooting my .338 WM. Depending on the total weight of the gun some of the magnums tend to be something that the first 10 rounds are not so bad, the last 10 a struggle.

Did you try a different brand/weight of ammo? Are you comfortable with reloading ammo yourself? I have a 10FCP in .308 that is hardly a heavy recoiling rifle and I have a bunch of hunting ammo it does not like as in 3 moa. My first attempt at handloading averaged 1 moa or so.

Are the scope bases torqued down to spec, same for rings and rings to base. I use a Wheeler Engineering Fat wrench.

And as mentioned, having someone that is proficient at shooting hard kicking rifles try it is always a good control. I'm not worlds best shot by any means but I've spent a lot of time helping hunters get their rifles sighted in each year at my club just before deer season. Some rifles don't shoot better with me behind them but others have.

It is always going to be harder shooting a high recoil rifle. Your hold consistency is going to matter since there is a better possibility for the weapon to move before the bullet leaves the barrel. Slug guns and muzzle loaders are the same in this respect. Shooting from a sitting position can be harder since you only get a fraction of your body weight behind the gun. On the other hand, I know that many ranges do not cater to prone shooters at all.

Given the circumstances, the recommendation to put a good break on the barrel is correct. I don't recall reading about the barrel profile, but particularly if it is a lightweight, avoid the temptation to put a pencil style brake on there (Magnabrake). Put a bit more substantial brake on it and avoid any downward facing ports if you might ever shoot from prone. The only other alternative is to add weight, some of which could be done with the stock but that would defeat the point of getting a lightweight gun in the first place.

The only other thing (other than verifying flinch) is to use the non trigger arm to grip the fore end and pull it back into the shoulder so that it is under a constant tension when fired. If you have any slop between the butt and your body it is going to move the point of impact as well as making it hurt more and both do nothing to contribute to consistency.

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Originally Posted by stangfish

You: 300 win mag does not shoot tight groups.
Me: What kind of scope?
You: Nikon Prostaff BDC scope
ME: :nono:

This is a 223 scope at best. More like a rimfire scope. Try a Monarch, Elite, VX3, Weaver Grand Slam or even a Vortex Viper just get something a little tougher than that.

Savage testing may not allow the recoil to punish the scope like your field test.

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Stang - This will be one of the very few times I'll disagree with you.
I ran a Nikon Prostaff 4-12x on my 25.06, .270 & 30.06. It's my back up / standby scope if one of my Vortex scopes goes in for a tuneup. It has never let me down. It survived the recoil of the 30.06 without a brake for 3 months of marathon '06 shooting.
True, it's a low end glass. But the only undesirable thing I can come up with is the reticle being too thick for over 400yds & a small target.

At the cost of magnum ammo, if he does have any hassles with a cheap scope it will very quickly cost the man more in ammo than spending $350-$450 for a reliable scope in the first place..... If I am low on cash after a new rifle acquisition, then it gets one of my Weaver K series fixed magnification scopes. Those are as tough as nails and about $150 each if I recall. 6x magnification is not ideal, but it sure beats an unreliable scope any day. With the fixed magnification you can learn the reticle subtentions for bullet drop (on my slug gun) and weaver has a spreadsheet with all the reticle subtentions of every scope they make.

Frank...................... I am seeing an axis bolt handle that is begining to look like a pretzel!

I hope I am wrong but if a 130 dollar scope is that good why do we even have higher end scopes. Shoot, I will sell my SIII and my Elites if they hold up to those marathon sessions with the 30-06 LOL. Do they make 6x24's?

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Originally Posted by stangfish

Frank...................... I am seeing an axis bolt handle that is begining to look like a pretzel!

I hope I am wrong but if a 130 dollar scope is that good why do we even have higher end scopes. Shoot, I will sell my SIII and my Elites if they hold up to those marathon sessions with the 30-06 LOL. Do they make 6x24's?

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I certainly wouldn't stake my life on one & I didn't say they were suitable for competition. I will say they're not as trashy as most people thing they are.
Your problem is similar to mine but I learned to overcome it. After eyeballing thru a Leupold for so long it hurts to look thru a Vortex or a Barska. Even worse, look thru a Zeiss for a while and your eyelid won't even open when it's in close proximity to a lesser quality glass.
Nonetheless, the Nikon Prostaff I have & others I've watched guys use are suitable for their use.
To each his own, I reckon.

As far as the pretzel.....
Is it a twist pretzel or more like a pretzel nugget?
Can't wait to see it. More importantly, can't wait to try it. I'm hoping it's the final tid bit of "coolth" my 25.06 needs. Now all I need to do is give this back problem that's been acting up & driving me crazy to someone I think would like to have it. Even if they don't want it, they can have it.
Keep me posted.
Thanks.

Nothing wrong with a pro staff scope. I have a few of them. here in ms we can use a single shot rifle .35 or bigger for a primitive weapon so I got a couple 444's , a pro staff on each. We went to check our scopes like everyone does before deer season. Shot mine, perfect. Its never been bumped off . My wife wanted to shoot hers hesself so we got out a lead sled. Shot all over the place. I shot it, my buddy shot it, same thing. We took the scope off, thinking it went bad. Turned out it was the lead sled. There's bad scopes in every brand, but the pro staff has been plenty good enough for what we use them for. The lil 444's will nock sparks off you. Wouldnt think a 300 wm would kick any more.

Bunch of Prostaff pervs... I am waiting to hear back from our man. Hopefully he will bring us back good news that the sled was the problem.

shooting sitting down its hard cause you're not swinging with the recoil so you take the hit on your shoulder really hard but if we shoot standings with sticks and swing with the recoil it won't sting you that bad

we have a perception that price equals quality for scopes.

First things first, THANK YOU all so much for the replies. Your a great group of guys.

Now down to business.

Pre-range adjustments:
1. Took that sorry excuse for a recoil pad (butt plate) off and replaced it with a pre-fit Simms.
2. Left the lead sled at home and used an ordinary caldwell steady nxt rifle rest.
3. As suggested by a gun club member. Before leaving home i took the stock off of the gun and sanded it down around the tang as it had substantial contact along the left side.

Range Time: Sitting position, 10 mph quartering to wind, 100yd target, barrel cooling between EACH shot.

Im down to 2 choices in what I have left as far as factory ammo, Hornady American Whitetail 150gr interlock and Hornady Superformance 180gr Interbond. I started with the 150gr interlock because I had more of those and their cheaper which is becoming a factor now that I'm above $400 in ammo sent down the barrel.
The first 4 shots were to foul the barrel, center up the groups and clear my mind.
Next was a 5 shot group with a special attention to my breathing and consistency in my grip. The results were just under 3" group. A second 5 shot string verified those results. Now is the hard to admit part as I'm am not a gimmick kind of guy but after reading the rave reviews on Midway i gave in to the temptation to buy a Simms barrel de-resonter and on it went. Another 5 shot string and I'll be ****ed It's under 2". Another 5 shots to verify.
Now the recoil in this gun is nothing more than my ML or slug gun, maybe slightly less, and to me seems manageable but the muzzle jump is off the chart. That being said, somewhere during those 20 shots i've apparently hit a nerve in my shoulder because my fingers are getting tingly and a little "twitchy" but I just couldn't talk myself into leaving before I shot at least a 3 shot string of the 180gr Interbonds. Now as far as my consistency goes, I feel like these 3 shots were sub par to the rest and the results showed it with a 3" grouping.

Changes for next weekend:
I've put together an assortment of hand loads using Accubond 180's and 200's as well as Hornady 180 Interbond's. Ive loaded these over both H1000 and RL-22 with IMR 7828 still on the shelf waiting.
My Idea here is to get a feel for what the gun likes better in bullet weight and powder. After that I'll do a ladder test (which I thankfully learned about here) on the favored combinations.

Now if this update stirs any new ideas please chime in to keep me steered in the right direction and I'll try and check in daily to answer the questions you guys ask this time.

Thanks again!

i would think that you still have a mismatch of ammo and rifle, especially if the de-resonator made a 1" difference.

My 24" heavy barrel loves 168 gr Fed GMM, Rem Prem 168 GMM, and Southwest Ammunition 168. I had my friend's 15 year old grandson shoot in Saturday at 100 yds. First time with a bolt gun. First shot was off, I got him to hold correctly, get the cant right, and not slap the trigger and he shot the next 4 rounds in under an inch. Yours should do the same when everything is right.

http://joelynch.smugmug.com/Friends/...EE505560-M.jpg

Joe

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Originally Posted by Joe L

i would think that you still have a mismatch of ammo and rifle, especially if the de-resonator made a 1" difference.

My 24" heavy barrel loves 168 gr Fed GMM, Rem Prem 168 GMM, and Southwest Ammunition 168. I had my friend's 15 year old grandson shoot in Saturday at 100 yds. First time with a bolt gun. First shot was off, I got him to hold correctly, get the cant right, and not slap the trigger and he shot the next 4 rounds in under an inch. Yours should do the same when everything is right.

http://joelynch.smugmug.com/Friends/...EE505560-M.jpg

Joe

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There's a HUGE difference between what i assume is a heavy barreled 308win shooting 168 grain bullets and a hunting rifle (likely not a heavy barrel) in 300 winmag shooting 180 grain projectiles. His WILL NOT have the same result. I can practically guarantee it. The ammo he is running is not match ammo. I'd say a 2"group is as good as its going to get for a sporter barrel and non match/hand loaded ammo.
On a side note. Good on your grandson with that group!

Bodyworks Your Correct In Assuming That It's A Standard Sporter barrel.

I think you are jugling too many different things.
Clean your rifle extremely well. Make sure stock and scope are mounted correctly. Load the 180 Accubonds starting low and moving up in 1/2gr increments till you get to book max. load 3 in each group seated to a lenght that is less than your magazine but still over sami max coal. load a couple extra in the lower weight to foul your barrel and get your zero. You should have no more than 25 rounds for that rifle when you go to the range. Take a 22lr and a cheap(lol) box of ammo to play with while your barrel is cooling. Put up your targets and use your fouler rounds to get on target. If they are low on the bull it's good cuz the higher charges may move up. If you have 6 different weights put up 6 targets or dots that are marked 1 thru six. to insure you aim at the correct target. With a cold barrel shoot your first shot at target no. 1. eject the case and inspect it for pressure signs then store it where it came out of the box. Play with the 22 for 10 min or so. Shoot round no. 2 into target no.2 this round should be the next higher weight. repeat with the 22. then no.3 and so on. If you start getting eye strain quit playing with the 22 and just listen to the radio for 10 min. If you start seeing heavy marks on your case heads or a stiff bolt after a shot DO NOT continue to the higher charges. Give that sporter plenty of time to cool. If you follow this it will take several hours at the range. Remember it is not a race. Give yourself plenty of time and enjoy. If you get any charge close to one inch you are good. You can then adjust a few 1/10's down and up to see if it gets better. Then go to changing seating depths. Remember one thing at a time. If you can't get a good node you may need to try the process again with a different powder. I have found that the 300win mag 1 in 10 twist usually does better with the 180 to 200 grain bullets. Save the light ones for a 308win. You may also have to try a diff brand of bullet like Sierra or Hornady.

Kill N Grill gave a lot of good advice. Having a second rifle to play with in order to pace yourself is awesome advice.

I was at the range working on one of my centerfire rifles and after each string, I played with a .22 rf that I'm trying to get dialed in. It really helped with pacing myself on the centerfire.

I now have justification to buy another front rest and rear bag set up so I can set up on two benches and alternate. I shoot at a club that isn't very busy.

I also bring my kindle to read. If there are are other people shooting, I read my kindle when the range is cold if I don't need to check targets or put up new ones.

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Originally Posted by Kill N Grill

I think you are jugling too many different things.
Clean your rifle extremely well. Make sure stock and scope are mounted correctly. Load the 180 Accubonds starting low and moving up in 1/2gr increments till you get to book max. load 3 in each group seated to a lenght that is less than your magazine but still over sami max coal. load a couple extra in the lower weight to foul your barrel and get your zero. You should have no more than 25 rounds for that rifle when you go to the range. Take a 22lr and a cheap(lol) box of ammo to play with while your barrel is cooling. Put up your targets and use your fouler rounds to get on target. If they are low on the bull it's good cuz the higher charges may move up. If you have 6 different weights put up 6 targets or dots that are marked 1 thru six. to insure you aim at the correct target. With a cold barrel shoot your first shot at target no. 1. eject the case and inspect it for pressure signs then store it where it came out of the box. Play with the 22 for 10 min or so. Shoot round no. 2 into target no.2 this round should be the next higher weight. repeat with the 22. then no.3 and so on. If you start getting eye strain quit playing with the 22 and just listen to the radio for 10 min. If you start seeing heavy marks on your case heads or a stiff bolt after a shot DO NOT continue to the higher charges. Give that sporter plenty of time to cool. If you follow this it will take several hours at the range. Remember it is not a race. Give yourself plenty of time and enjoy. If you get any charge close to one inch you are good. You can then adjust a few 1/10's down and up to see if it gets better. Then go to changing seating depths. Remember one thing at a time. If you can't get a good node you may need to try the process again with a different powder. I have found that the 300win mag 1 in 10 twist usually does better with the 180 to 200 grain bullets. Save the light ones for a 308win. You may also have to try a diff brand of bullet like Sierra or Hornady.

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Thanks for the advice Kill, I'll try your suggestion after I get through the load ladder that I've already started loading for.

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Originally Posted by bodywerks

There's a HUGE difference between what i assume is a heavy barreled 308win shooting 168 grain bullets and a hunting rifle (likely not a heavy barrel) in 300 winmag shooting 180 grain projectiles. His WILL NOT have the same result. I can practically guarantee it. The ammo he is running is not match ammo. I'd say a 2"group is as good as its going to get for a sporter barrel and non match/hand loaded ammo.
On a side note. Good on your grandson with that group!

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I think it is fair to say that most Savage rifles will shoot under 2" @ 100 yards without match ammo. This includes factory sporter weight barrels. I have a sporter weight 22-250 Stevens 200 that is nearly as accurate with hunting ammo as my 223 VLP with match ammo. Both shoot well under an inch. The key difference is the amount of shots I can get downrange without having an impact on accuracy. Obviously the lightweight barrel and the increase powder of the 22-250 heats the tube up a fair bit quicker than a varmint contour 223. I'm sure his rifle can produce tighter groups than what he has been experiencing, certainly closer to 1" than 2".

On another note, most Savage barrels, according to others on here and my own experience, tend to shoot better as they get dirtier. How often are you cleaning the barrel?

I've cleaned it on average about every 2 boxes or 40 shots. Do you think I should clean it more often? I've been cleaning it with Hoppe's #9, is that a decent choice?

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Originally Posted by IUOE

I've cleaned it on average about every 2 boxes or 40 shots. Do you think I should clean it more often? I've been cleaning it with Hoppe's #9, is that a decent choice?

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I've found most, if not all of the sporter barrels I used in the past like a little "foul" in them. 4 to 8 rounds to leave a little copper behind seems to settle them down. I did have .270 sporter that liked a dozen rounds to settle down.
As far as Hoppes.....
Swab the barrel with a generous amount of the stuff & let it sit for 10 - 15 minutes before you clean patch it. You'll find the longer if sits in the barrel, the prettier blue the patches will come out.
I use hopes to remove carbon first, then Sweet's to de-copper the barrel, then a last application of Hoppe's to dilute the Sweet's.
I like my barrels shiny clean. 2 of them shoot best when clean.

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Originally Posted by 1ShotKing

I think it is fair to say that most Savage rifles will shoot under 2" @ 100 yards without match ammo. This includes factory sporter weight barrels. I have a sporter weight 22-250 Stevens 200 that is nearly as accurate with hunting ammo as my 223 VLP with match ammo. Both shoot well under an inch. The key difference is the amount of shots I can get downrange without having an impact on accuracy. Obviously the lightweight barrel and the increase powder of the 22-250 heats the tube up a fair bit quicker than a varmint contour 223. I'm sure his rifle can produce tighter groups than what he has been experiencing, certainly closer to 1" than 2".

On another note, most Savage barrels, according to others on here and my own experience, tend to shoot better as they get dirtier. How often are you cleaning the barrel?

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Every 308 savage I've owned (3) wouldn't shoot worth a darn with anything but match ammo, and even then it was finicky. Non match bulk ammo was typically only good for 2.5-3.5MOA(pmc/Winchester/m118 NATO). Match, good stuff, was all sub MOA. Only my handloads, tuned to the specific rifle, were good for half MOA, sometimes better.
My 223 rifles, both of them, were easily sub 2 MOA, many bulk ammo options were around 1 MOA.
As you start to push heavier, larger pills faster it seems to be more difficult to just throw some ammo together and make it shoot well. My experience at least...

Well it appears that the rifle indeed will shoot, just not any of the factory ammo I've put down the barrel. After randomly picking some hand-loads to try and only getting mixed results I decided to give this load ladder thing a try. My load of choice would be a 200 gr Accubond bullet over a load of H-1000 starting at 72.0 gr and adding .25 gr until i reached 77.0 gr (listed max). Long story short I held 5 shot, sub 1" group between 75.25 and 76.5 and now I'm stoked! And the bonus is that in the process that started with simply finding an adequate hunting rifle, this whole process has evolved into a new and very enjoyable hobby with many new ideas/tests/purchases yet to come. My wife on the other hand is not so thrilled that I've found another "addiction" to add to my already out of control archery hobby. I'm blaming it on all of you LOL. Thanks everyone for all your info to keep me steered in the right direction

IUOE--Excellent! Glad you got to experiment enough to find the right match of ammo for the rifle. I'm lucky that my stock rifle shoots several brands of factory ammo well. Good luck with your new hobby.

Joe

Willing to bet that the more you shoot the better your trigger skills get.