I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A NEW MODEL 12 IN 6.5X284 BVSS!

Hello Guys,
Ok here's the problem, went to the range last weekend with my new Mosel 12 in 6.5X284 BVSS. Brand new Black Hills Ammo as shown in pic's. I fired one round lifted bolt handle and couldn't pull bolt back, I had to hit the bolt with the palm of my hand on bolt handle to get it opened. Next I cleaned barrel and fired second round SAME THING. Now follow this, I put a very little dab of oil on outside of case and fired round, guess what no problem lifted bolt and slide back (like no problem ). Chambered next round, fired and was alittle hard but slid bolt back , but next round could not get bolt back, had to palm it again. So next round back to oil again and guess what NO PROBLEM. NO OIL I get problem, lube case NO PROBLem. The bolt handle lifted I would say with no problem. Ok I haven't hand loaded yet, but when I do I'll Light load then to see if pressure was too high in Black Hills Ammo. In the mean time does anybody have any idea's? Gun, ammo, chamber, ? Here are pic of ammo .
Thanks Jerry
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...badammo006.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...badammo001.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...badammo002.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...badammo003.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...badammo004.jpg

Yes, I had similar issue with 12 LRPV, finish on the chamber was terrible, it will deform your brass to a point you wont be able to cycle fired brass again even after FL sizing. The fix for this is to re-chamber, just run chamber reamer to take off whatever chatter you might have in your chamber.

Try to chamber fired brass and see if you can cycle it.

here is chatter in my LRPV

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5466/6mmchamber8.jpg

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Originally Posted by jinx-)

Yes, I had similar issue with 12 LRPV, finish on the chamber was terrible, it will deform your brass to a point you wont be able to cycle fired brass again even after FL sizing. The fix for this is to re-chamber, just run chamber reamer to take off whatever chatter you might have in your chamber.

Try to chamber fired brass and see if you can cycle it.

here is chatter in my LRPV

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5466/6mmchamber8.jpg

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OK I'm going to do that right now . Stand by,

OK your're right, I can't get a fired round to come out of chamber!!! Should I send it back to Savage? How does something like this get's by? Quality control? What happened? Wasn't gun test fired before shipping to Distr.?
Jerry

Looks like I can see an ejector mark in the head of your fired brass - that would mean high pressure. Oiling the case makes for extra high pressure (actually doesn't increase pressure, but increases bolt thrust a LOT).

I would certainly try different ammo before sending it back.

Sounds like a headspace issue. Too much head space and you get symptoms that look like high pressure.

May be that the Blackhills ammo was sized to minimum headspace and your chamber is set a bit long ...

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Originally Posted by Eric in NC

Looks like I can see an ejector mark in the head of your fired brass - that would mean high pressure. Oiling the case makes for extra high pressure (actually doesn't increase pressure, but increases bolt thrust a LOT).
I would certainly try different ammo before sending it back.

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+1
I would totally agree. There is clearly an ejector mark on the case, what is hard to tell from looking at the picture is I would say that there is primer cratering (Flow back into the primer hole.) on the case as well. Both point to signs of overpressure. Take your fingernail and run it over the primer if you feel a lip, that is primmer cratering. Hard primary extraction (Bolt lift is sticky, or clicky especially at the top of the stroke.) is also a sign of high pressure. I say that signs are pointing to hot ammo. I would highly suspect the ammo, more than anything being wrong with the rifle. Do the necks and shoulders look shiny? No, Savage chambers are not perfect, (many times a tad bit off center or crooked.) usually rougher than a custom chamber, but I seriously doubt it would have anything to do with a pressure problem.

Definate pressure signs. Try some different ammo before you get too radical on the gun or savage.

Take a picture of ALL of the fired cases with them laying on their side. Rotate 90 degrees and post another pic...until we can see all four sides of the cases.

That ejector mark DOES indicate high pressure.

You could try putting a piece of cellophane tape on the back of the case and try chambering it.

If it chambers easily, put another pieces of tape on, etc to estimate how much headspace there is with these rounds.

Let us know when the bolt becomes noticeably harder to close, how many pieces of tape.

here is picture of deformed brass, also it had unadjusted firing pin which did create similar craters
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/4886/6mmnorma5.jpg

and craters and ejector marks

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9361/6mmnorma.jpg

after I adjusted firing pin, the cycling issue didn't go away. Here you can see ejector marks, but almost no craters

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4715/6mmnorma1.jpg

to check for headspace get candle and smear some carbon on the shoulders of fired brass and cycle it in your action then remove it, if shoulders of the brass had full contact with the chamber it will indicate tight headspace, if no contact then it will point to excessive headspace

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3968/6mmnorma17.jpg

o yeah, forgot to mention the chamber I had was also 5 thousands off center with the bore, so it could also contribute to hard to cycle cases.

I agree with some of the other posters, that looks like high pressure to me, because that is a serious ejector mark there.

Personally, I've never had an ejector mark that bad (to the point of smearing when the bolt was opened) with an excessive headspace issue. The only time I've had that is simply with HOT loads.

With excessive headspace I typically get primers that are flattened out until they completely fill the pocket (without any rounded edge at all) and no ejector mark.

As for the slightly cratered primer, that could be high pressure or it could just be that it's a Savage. I've found that Savages typically have way more clearance between the firing pin and firing pin hole than what is necessary, which ends up cratering primers even with normal pressures.

Also, I've had Savages with fairly short throats, which can be good for accuracy, but it ends up making loads run hotter than they would in the more common half-mile-long factory chamber. So, I would recommend using a black permanent marker and coloring the case shoulder, case neck and bullet. Let it dry, then chamber it, remove it and check. If anything suspicious shows up there, post a couple pics and maybe someone here can help diagnose.

It would also be nice to have a couple more pics of the case body to look for any rings or such around the case that might indicate a groove in the chamber (typically from a chip not being cleared out during chamber reaming).

And finally, please don't purposely lube your cases or chamber and then fire the rifle. That creates a tremendous amount of bolt thrust when the round is fired and quite frankly makes me cringe when I think about the load placed on the bolt lugs.

Ok all thanks to all. I will post pic's as you requested. Hold tight I'll post tonite. And again thats for all your comments.

OK here are the pic's. Let me know what you think now. GUN OR AMMO?
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ammobad019.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ammobad003.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ammobad002.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ammobad019.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ammobad012.jpg
[img width=512 height=768]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w1/jrallo3789/ammobad018.jpg[/img]
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ammobad016.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ammobad009.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ammobad006.jpg

Measure the difference in case head expansion from a fired case to an unfired.
The "hitch" in the bolt is caused by tight case heads and lack of primary extracton.

is it possible to get close-up view on brass pieces I marked, by the way have you tried carbon test I mentioned before?

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9379/ammobad009.jpg

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Measure the difference in case head expansion from a fired case to an unfired.
The "hitch" in the bolt is caused by tight case heads and lack of primary extracton.

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OK I measured and here are the numbers: unfired ammo is 498.5-499.0. fired ammo is 501.00. What you think?

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Originally Posted by jinx-)

is it possible to get close-up view on brass pieces I marked, by the way have you tried carbon test I mentioned before?

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9379/ammobad009.jpg

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JINX- I haven't done that yet. But I will and post pic's.

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Originally Posted by jrallo3789

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Measure the difference in case head expansion from a fired case to an unfired.
The "hitch" in the bolt is caused by tight case heads and lack of primary extracton.

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OK I measured and here are the numbers: unfired ammo is 498.5-499.0. fired ammo is 501.00. What you think?

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.002-.0025 is a lot for a case of that size. Typically .001-.0015" case head expansion will result in ejector marks. That load is hot for your rifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrallo3789

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Measure the difference in case head expansion from a fired case to an unfired.
The "hitch" in the bolt is caused by tight case heads and lack of primary extracton.

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OK I measured and here are the numbers: unfired ammo is 498.5-499.0. fired ammo is 501.00. What you think?

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.002-.0025 is a lot for a case of that size. Typically .001-.0015" case head expansion will result in ejector marks. That load is hot for your rifle.

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Should I contact Black Hill's about it or try my own lite handloads and see what happens. I bought 100 unprimed Lapua cases should I start with these? Are the Black Hill's cases no good now?

+1 - I would call Black Hills and try to find some different ammo if you aren't a loader. If you are a handloader, buy some brass and start working up some loads.

I played with the 6.5x284 on a Savage (with a Pacnor tube) and found some of the published data to be VERY hot for my gun. Just think there isn't enough experience with the round yet to ensure uniform "sanity" with loads.

Sorry - didn't see your post. Yes call Black Hills and yes start out with begining loads with your new brass and work up.

Your fired brass isn't totally trash, but I wouldn't trust it for more than one or two more loads with known "ok" loads.

Just be sure you never oil a round before firing it and be sure to remove oil from your chamber before firing as well!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric in NC

Sorry - didn't see your post. Yes call Black Hills and yes start out with begining loads with your new brass and work up.

Your fired brass isn't totally trash, but I wouldn't trust it for more than one or two more loads with known "ok" loads.

Just be sure you never oil a round before firing it and be sure to remove oil from your chamber before firing as well!

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Thanks Yes I know about oil on the cases it was just a test to see what happened it was very very lite on cases. Guess I will try my handloads and see where it goes from here.

Lapua brass has a gradual heat treat and typically is harder towards the base. It is much more resistant to pressure than Norma. That's one of the reasons that it has a longer case life.

Read somewhere that Black Hills loaded some a little warm but had backed off. Had some 204's when they first came out from Winchester that would drop primers out. Couldn't get them replaced.. Cratered primers might be a sign of high pressure - There are a couple of other things that will also cause that. I would pull a couple rounds and use the brass to reload ( use the same bullet and a chrony ) and see if the problem is still there. apples to apples.....

primers look like Winchester Large Rifle Primers, they a bit soft, using Federal Gold Match or CCI Benchrest probaly would leave less craters, also I would adjust firing pin back by 1/8 turn and get that firing pin hole bushed . From 6mmbr: "When running stout loads, you can get cratering caused by primer flow around the firing pin hole in the bolt face. The reason is a little complicated, but basically the larger the hole, the less hydraulic pressure is required to crater the primer. A limited amount of cratering is normally not a big issue, but you can reduce the problem significantly by having a smith fit a bushing in the firing pin hole. In addition to reduced cratering, bushing the firing pin often produces more consistent ignition. This is a highly recommended procedure that our editors have had done to their own rifles. Greg Tannel (Gre-Tan Rifles) is an expert at this procedure, and his turnaround time is fast–usually 1-3 days (shop time). Current price for a bushing job, which includes turning the firing pin to .062?, is $60 including return shipping. (Price subject to change.) If you have a factory rifle, a bushed firing pin is the way to go if you are shooting the high-pressure cartridges such as 6PPC, 6BR, 6-6.5×47 and 6.5×47. This is one of the most cost-effective and beneficial upgrades you can do to your factory rifle." http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ll-greg-tannel

Hello All,
Just want to keep you guy's up to date, I'm going away till Monday (PA) on a short vacation with my wife. When I return I'll make some loads up and go to range that weekend. Thanks for eveybody's help and comments.
Jerry

From what I see: no flattened primers, then cratering may be excessive firing pin hole. Combine those two and the extractor mark it could be the cartridge is smacking back against the bolt face. Combined with the really gross chatter marks on the shoulders seen in an earlier picture It tells me there is a chamber problem. If you get the same problem with a different brand of ammo, Send it back to Savage with some of the cases with those annular rings on the shoulders of the fired cartridges. I am sure Savage is monitoring these posts.
El Lobo

I doubt his rifle has chamber issue that I experienced, picture with the shoulders was from my rifle, however it might have chatter at the web ,also it could be headspaced wrong, anyway it can go either way or both....

Hello All Again, I just got back from Pa. and back in New York (UGH) I may not get to range this weekend cause it may rain all weekend but I'll see. I loved PA. nice farmland, would like to live there and shoot many woodchucks ( ground hog's ). I'll keep all posted as to what's happening. Thanks again. Jerry.

k

Hello all, Well I went to the range today with my own hand loads and guess what????? NO TROUBLE!!!!! YES NO TROUBLE NO PROBLEM WITH REMOVING FIRED CASES FROM GUN! I made 5 handloads each 10 total. Five fired cases came from gun org. and five brand new Lapua brass. They were loaded with 142gr SMK's and Lapua 123gr. Powder was H-1000. So I guess the Black Hills ammo was TOO HOT? What do you think? Sorry this took so long to get back. SAVAGE WORKED PERFECT!!! Thanks Jerry

Hello, Last update, I called Black Hill's and they are having a call taged sent to pick up the ammo. I didn't fire 5 remaining rounds so they can test it. I sent all fired cases for them to look at. They were very helpful on the phone, a stand up company!!! I will let all know when they tell me the results. Jerry

Reply 13, first picture on the post, 8 cases shown.

Bottom row, third case to the right, look at the ejector mark! Very clear on the number 4 stamping on the brass! Cases shown above this one shows the protrusion "shaved"! The ejector mark shows up clearly on a few other cases as well in this picture, and pictures above!

IMO only a hot load will cause this! I have loaded up a few that were hot that looked the same way!

But it sounds like you have the problem under control.

Dennis

PS: Let us know what Black Hills determines.

Hello Dennis, I will let you know what Black Hill's answer is. Hope they come for it in the next few days. Thanks Jerry.

Still waiting for that call tag to show up here! >:(

OK, Call tag showed up today (March 29th) will go out March 30th back to Black Hills. STAY TUNED.

Update, spoke to Carl at Black Hills, they received the ammo and was sending it to an independent lab for testing. He said it may take two more weeks. I'll let everyone know what they said.
Jerry

Update. update. Spoke to Karl at Black Hills the other day ask him about ammo ( did they sent it out?),No but they fired some ammo in there text fixture or firearm and told me they had no trouble with it, But they haven't sent the remaining ammo out to the independent lab yet. I'd figure if someone returned ammo that's maybe too hot they would shake there butt alittle. Am I wrong?

[quote=jrallo3789 ]
Update. update. Spoke to Karl at Black Hills the other day ask him about ammo ( did they sent it out?),No but they fired some ammo in there text fixture or firearm and told me they had no trouble with it, But they haven't sent the remaining ammo out to the independent lab yet. I'd figure if someone returned ammo that's maybe too hot they would shake there butt alittle. Am I wrong?

Hell no you arn't wrong. Keep on thier butts about this.

El Lobo

Hello All,
Well I finally heard back from Black Hills about the ammo problem.Here is what they said " We've finally come to a conclusion that it appears to be the brass that we began using last year that is causing the troubles you reported. Apparently the brass is a bit softer than the Norma and the Lapua made brass we've used in the past. This softer brass combined with the pressure curve of the powder we use seems to cause pressure signs and sticking in some weapons. We fired rteturned rounds from you and another person in serveral weapons here at the shop. functioning would be flawless in one and then we'd see hard bolt lift and stickiness in the next. Firing the rounds in a pressure test barrel showed them to be within specs for similar calibers such as the 270Win and 25-06 Remington. Since the 6.5x284 Norma has never been accepted into the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufactorers Institute (SAAMI) manual there's no established pressure standards for this round. Ammunition manufactures such as ourselves use similar cartridges as examples to go by."

They sent me a refund check for the ammo and they are sending me Lapua brass for free. Black Hills is a STAND UP COMPANY!!!!
Hope this helps other's in the future.

Jerome
P.S. If anyone has a pet load they'd like to share with me, please let me know.

Hello, Does anybody have a pet load for this cartridge you'd like to share?

There is no excuse for any maker of rifles to let one get out of the factory with a chamber like the one on that rifle. Do not mess with it but call Savage and get a ticket to return it. I would, in a heartbeat. If they do not replace or reream the chamber I would be surprised. There are several reasons why a chamber would look like that, none of which should have happened. It would not surprise me to find the chamber is off center to the bore as well. That alone could jack up pressures and send a bullet down the bore canted to one side as well as distort it.

El Lobo

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Originally Posted by ellobo

There is no excuse for any maker of rifles to let one get out of the factory with a chamber like the one on that rifle. Do not mess with it but call Savage and get a ticket to return it. I would, in a heartbeat. If they do not replace or reream the chamber I would be surprised. There are several reasons why a chamber would look like that, none of which should have happened. It would not surprise me to find the chamber is off center to the bore as well. That alone could jack up pressures and send a bullet down the bore canted to one side as well as distort it.

El Lobo

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That chamber you see is not mine. My chamber is fine it was ammo that I was using. Go to my last post and read what Blacks Hills wrote me.
Thanks
Jerry

I have a 6.5x284 f class rifle I shoot 1k matches with and use 51.5 grns of H4831sc with CCI BR primers and Berger 140 VLD Match bullets. Best group yet at 1k is 4.796 during a match and consistently shoots in the 6 " range.

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Originally Posted by chiefkerdog

I have a 6.5x284 f class rifle I shoot 1k matches with and use 51.5 grns of H4831sc with CCI BR primers and Berger 140 VLD Match bullets. Best group yet at 1k is 4.796 during a match and consistently shoots in the 6 " range.

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Thank you
jerry