I know theres a wealth of articles about this and iv read many..but do any of you have first hand experience in accuracy comparisons with the longer barrels?
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I know theres a wealth of articles about this and iv read many..but do any of you have first hand experience in accuracy comparisons with the longer barrels?
I don't think the length of the barrel has as much to do with accuracy as much as quality prepared ammunition and the skill of the person pulling the trigger. A barrel is like a instrument and can be tuned to shoot extremely well in most cases. That being said I have rifles with barrels from 20-26" but if I have the choice I will go with a 26" everytime to maximize the potential of the caliber.
Great..first hand knowledge .. So have you noticed an increase in accuracy with the 26 inch vs 22? I know you get a little more velocity but I'm not sure that increases accuracy..I agree the shooter and cartridge are the main factor..and sure the trigger probably makes more of a difference than about anythingi just wanna know all I can so I buy right the first time. Also, how much of a difference does a heavy barrel make? Will it do what a longer barrel does? For instance, if you had to choose between a heavy 22 and a regular 24, which would you choose? BTW, thanks for the reply, its nice to be able to reach out to someone with experience rather than have to rely on article that may or may not be bias
I honestly can't tell the difference between a 22" barrel and a 26" one in the accuracy department. I am not happy unless they are shooting half inch or better five shot groups and they all do that.
What exactly are you wanting to do with your rifle; hunting, target, bench rest? Are you packing it around through thick brush or shooting from a bench or Bi-pod? What cartridge? Lots of things to take into account than just barrel length here. If all else fails buy a 26" and cut it off if you want/need to.
Target and varmint hunting..so being too long probably wouldn't be an issue. I am with you on my expectations for accuracy... Thanks for replying again..if you don't notice a difference I won't bother holding out for the longer barrel and maybe just get the HB in 22 since they are considerably cheaper. Lol I'm glad you have the same kind of accuracy expectations from your rifles as I do..gives me a great deal of confidence in your information. I do want to try some long range shooting and that's the reasoning for choosing a 243. I connect dots at 100 fairly easy but have never shot past 300 meters before and that was open sites in the Army. Figure I better start off with a solid platform for long range shooting that way o know who to blame of I miss lol I am going to get an Axis II and bed it..can't think of anything else needed since it comes with a pretty good trigger. But I'd appreciate your advice if you know of anything else I need to modify to turn it into a 1000 yarder.. BTW..my name is Greg..good to meet ya
Sounds like you want a 26". Get it, and if you hate it later just get it cut/recrowned.
I'd go 26"...
The length of the barrel has a lot more to do with ensuring the powder burns up before exiting the barrel. For my 300WM, 26" was recommended by the guys at Northland Shooters Supply to ensure just that. The .308 family cartridges (like .243) shoot just as accurate from 20" heavy barrels. However, cutting the barrel down is a lot more economical than buying a longer barrel later... The 26" may be the best way to go. Velocity gain may be around 150-200 fps w/ that 6" difference.
Shilen's website is a good website for barrel accuracy information. Shilen talks about the accuracy being derived from the rigidity of the barrel and uniformity of the bore. They also note that the fluting of barrels is a redundant process that simply takes some rigidity out of a standard bull barrel and that they won't provide that service to their customers. I'm paraphrasing but they said that the fluting may help with reducing effects of heating but after you've significantly reduced rigidity; how much accuracy are you actually losing rather than gaining? I thought their argument was pretty solid and would advise anybody to read their info.
Also, the bull barrel is the way to go to establish maximum rigidity and accuracy...
Happy shopping!
Russ
Lots of variables in this question.
Have you nailed down what caliber you want to use. Which barrel manufacturer? Then which bullet?
If 1000 yard shooting at paper is your goal, I'd very much suggest looking at the 6 Dasher with a fast twist. 300-800 I'd still stay with the dasher but possibly slow the twist down. From my personal experience, I use a 6 Dasher with a 26" Hart 1-10 twist. I had it built as a prairie dog rifle and throated for Hornady 87 vmax's. It will push those out at over 3200 fps and hold 5/8 at 300 yards, which is the distance I do my testing at. For comparison I have a 243 built by the same smith that is a 26" 1-12 twist that is starting to show it's age (over 1500 rds) but will still hold under 1/2" @ 100. It's sweet spot coincidentally is 3207 fps but with an additional 10 grains of powder.
If live big game is your goal, you'll need something larger and more clean kill oriented.
If you haven't read about the Houston Warehouse, I've included a link. Really a great read by pure accuracy buffs. The ideal barrel length for their purposes (benchrest 100-300 yds with the 6 PPC) was 21 3/4". I've known that for years but I also lean towards 26" barrels for the same reason that others have already stated. You can always cut some off, but it's pretty tough to glue it on.
Allen
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
Length has really nothing to do with the accuracy potential of the barrel. You can take a 26" barrel and shorten it to 16", and if the job is done correctly the likely outcome is no change in accuracy. Longer will usually give some increased velocity -- but not always. I've seen otherwise identical rifles that gave higher velocity with 22" vs. 26" barrel, and the same for, say, 4" versus 6" revolvers. Speed also depends on such things as the chamber dimensions and bore finish, barrel-cylinder gaps in revolvers, etc.
A longer barrel gives you more velocity. Barrel harmonics will change, but that doesn't make it better or worse, just different.
We like to shoot itty-bitty targets a long, long way from where the bullets are launched. The longer my bullets stay supersonic the better. I know some bullets are just fine in the transonic transition, but I would rather keep em moving as fast as reasonably possible. My latest .243 is 28". Velocities run around 220 fps better than my axis with the same bullet.
Wow..thanks for all the information Fellers..definitely going with the 243..I just don't enjoy the pounding of anything over my 270 for target shooting. I'm trying to work within a 400 dollar budget for the rifle and keep the barrel stock. May change it later but for now the money is just not there. I know my 100 yard expectations but don't know enough about long range shooting to have an accuracy expectation. I'm thinking if I could hit a milk jug at 1000 I'd be more than satisfied lol I feel like if I gotta change the barrel to have the velocity needed I'm just looking at the wrong caliber. As for ammo choice, i like the cheap winchester silver box or Remmington Core Locked cause they are cheap lol I plan to get a reloading kit soon and understand the importance of it and definitely prefer the cost of a kit vs cost of match grade ammo. BTW..is it really as easy to reload good quality ammo as it appears?
While 1000 yard milk jugs with a $400 rifle and factory ammo is definitely possible it will prove to be quite difficult to do consistently. Hand loaded ammo is almost a must and probably more important yet is quality glass to get you there. Have you considered the 6.5 Creedmoor for your intended purpose? Reason being is that high quality match grade ammo at decent cost is available and the extra BC of the 6.5 will sure come in handy on the longer shots especially if shooting a core loct .243. They are great bullets but not what I would choose for paper punching at any distance. The 6.5 is easy on the shoulder and not any more expensive to feed than the .243
This is what I would do if I were you.
1. Rifle in 6.5 creed
2. Replace your stock with a nice Boyd's laminate and have it bedded & floated.
3. Quality optic - Leupold, Sightron, Nikon or something similar with good glass and turrets.
4. Buy a few boxes of ammo to get you started.
5. Begin Reloading, take it slow, buy a manual and read carefully.
6. Practice and have fun.
Good read Allen..
lotsa factors involved with the barrel length of any firearm, but for the very most part it's the cartridge type and build that will totally trump barrel length. i have an axis hb in .223 and it is quite consistently accurate at 200 to 300 yards with my carefully built hand loads. it will *always* come down to precise hand loads for top consistent accuracy, most particularly at the longer marks, and not the barrel length/type/weight/etc.
In a word, YES. Hand loading accurate, consistent, customized ammo is not all that difficult. Also, keep in mind that factory ammo is not necessarily low quality or inconsistent. What makes hand loading so "special" is it allows you to custom-build ammo that YOUR rifle/barrel likes. By playing around with different powders, bullets, charges, seating depth, etc. you find a combination that works well in your barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbolung
I am only estimating here, but I would say, generally speaking, if you have an ordinary hunting rifle capable of shooting typical, factory made hunting rounds 1 inch or so at 100 yards, you can, with very little effort and no special, insanely anal hand loading practices and case prep build custom ammo capable of shooting 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. THat's not a big deal, maybe, but that same gun will, therefore, likely shoot 2 inch groups at 400 yards, ( as opposed to 4 inches. ) THAT's where it makes a practical difference. Getting anything better than that does typically requires some pretty radical, obsessively painstaking effort, tools, equipment, knowledge, experience and luck. No always, but usually. So yes, I would say the average hand loader can get tremendous benefits from basic hand loading. How far you care to take it after that is up to you, but there comes a point where you start to hit " seriously diminishing returns" on your effort.
Besides all of that, it's FUN.
And, from a hunting perspective, can be VERY satisfying to take down a deer with a cartridge you assembled yourself.
I haven't read it all yet but thanks for the link; that is an awesome read!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stork
+10 to what foxx just posted.
hand loading is what shooting consistency and accuracy is really all about.
as the arrow is far more important than the bow, so the cartridge is to the gun.
hand loading is not about saving money on ammo, it's about building really superb cartridges that will deliver *consistent accuracy*, shot after shot, that's far better than commercial rounds.
hand loading need not cost lots to get started (nor finish up), either. pick your goal, understand the load process for the firearm and cartridge of your choice, buy the CORRECT tools AND materials, begin the adventurous journey and reap the good benefits. ive been in the hand loading game since the late 50's for firearms from muzzleloaders to automatics and everything in between, and i'd never dream of buying commercial ammo. heresy, let alone stupidity! :)
pm or email me directly if you have questions or would like some tailored guidance.
OP, I forgot to mention my 20" Savage .308 shoots just as good as my 24.5" SIG .308. I think that is a testament to Savage. I showed my buddy's dad both rifles and he tossed the savage to the side and said he wanted to check out the SSG3000. Shooting on his farm he was smirking and shaking his head when my Savage 10P was shooting 2" groups at 300 yards w/ factory SMK GMM. SIG has a smoother bolt and may last longer but the barrel length doesn't mean accuracy until extreme distance becomes a factor.
Can you get an Axis in heavy barrel? Stock Savage barrels have been good for me...
i was looking at the savage site a few dayze ago and no longer see the axis hb listed.
Why not consider selling the Pontiac, i mean .270, and building one gun you can do it all with?
With all the bullets to choose from a 6.5 might be a better choice than owning two guns.
And you would have more money to work with for doing it right. Then if you decide later you need another
bigger gun, there would be lots of good choices there also. Compare a 280 to your 270 including bullet selection.
Like the Pontiac, the world really dosent need a .270.
As for barrel legnth, i think a 24" would suffice for a 243. Id personaly go 26" on the others, except for magnums where id start at 28" depending on cartridge.
If your going to be carrying the gun around hunting, the longer barrels can become a pita. But a 26" as a rule works fine for that.
Turbo,Quote:
Originally Posted by stomp442
From what I'm gleaning from your posts, you're just starting down this path. I would suggest close attention be paid to what stomp just suggested. He's dead on with his suggestions of bore size, optics, caliber, and reasoning.
1. Factory 6.5 Creedmore ammo is very accurate.
2. As you shoot the factory ammo, you'll be accumulating good brass.
3. There have never been any old rifles factory chambered for the creed. Therefore it can be safely loaded to higher pressures.
4. I absolutely love the 243 caliber, I've owned many in the last 40 years of shooting & loading. That being said, the creed will do everything the 243 will plus give you availability of much higher ballistic coefficient bullets when you're ready to try for the 1000 yard range. And no I don't own a creed, I decided on a 260 but would have been pleased with either.
5. Good glass is unbelievably important. I'd rather have a $1500 scope on a $200 rifle than the reverse. Buy good glass. Rifles can & will come & go. Good glass never leaves my possession. I did a twilight test 35 years ago with Weaver, Baush & Lomb, Redfield and Leupold. The Leu was the last one I tested before dark thirty, it was like someone had switched on the lights. Got rid of the others & have run straight Leupolds since. The only other brand that I've personally looked through that could replace my Leu's is Nightforce. Although I've heard really good things about both Vortex & Sightron also, just never had the chance to use them out in the prairie dog towns.
6. Good stocks and proper bedding are also very important. Think about it in a building context. If your foundation is sub par, everything you put on top of it is for naught.
7. Reloading can be as simple as getting one of the old Lee "Whack a mole" sets, to Dillon progressives, arbor presses and hand dies. I've used about every type out there, and they all have there place. The important thing is to read and ask questions, lots and lots of questions. There's no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to assembling something that's going to explode 6" in front of your face. When it comes to loading information, try to keep in mind that the internet is a blessing & a curse. 50% of the info out there is good solid data, the other 50% isn't and much of the time you have no idea which half you're dipping into. When in doubt go onto the powder manufacturer's web site & look at what they recommend.
8. Keep a log book. Every shot should teach you something. Note the wind, temp, sky conditions, distance, group size, case used, powder, primer, bullet, seating depth. The list goes on. I have a lot or really good targets that I neglected to note that info on. At this point they're pretty much useless, don't rely on memory.
FWIW
Al
Stork recommended everything I would but probably accidentally slipped on not mentioning the rings. Make sure you get good solid quality rings. They don't have to cost $200 either... The only aluminum rings I have are the weaver six bolt tactical rings. For the price they are good on my .308 and haven't slipped. Please invest in an adjustable torque screwdriver (5-60/65 inch pounds or so) and follow manufacturer torque recommendations so you don't ruin a new set of rings with over torque.
Most bases and rings I have are steel. I like the added weight, sturdiness and the bases can be notched or grooved and reblued if the scope bell gets in the way... i did it to a night force mount and you would think it was designed that way. plus it made me feel like a did something productive, like not having to buy taller rings ;)
Now where in hell did i put that log book? lol
Interesting thought on building on the 270..but its an old Stevens model and was kind of an inheritance..fam rifle kinda deal. I like the 243 cause its always a readily available cartridge. Part of the desire to relaod to reduce ammo cost so o can shoot as much as I wanna without feeling like I set a dollar on fire every time I pull the trigger lol but also for the ability to be in control of my ammo supply. With whats going on these days, that's important to me. Feel free to read into that, its important to me. I also desire to do it for the reason brother Foxx mentioned. I had never thought of the satisfaction of taking a deer with a bullet I built, but really like that. I am totally on board with quality rings and mounts and use a one piece mount dang near every time, and if not, its top shelf mounts and rings. Leopold is by far my favorite scope and agree with every word you said about them. Oh, your right about the HB Russ..learned that today at the gun shop. Looks like I'm going to have to settle a little or I will end up holding out until the whole thing bits a back burner to other things lol im OK with that cause I know any Savage rifle is gonna get me very close to my goal and I can always change the barrel and stock later. You Fellers are top notch and I greatly appreciate you sharing your wisdom with me..too bad none of ta live in KY. Couldn't get any better than to be able to shoot with the likes of y'all lol
imho, it's very hard to beat the .243win for most everything - accuracy, hunting varmints/deer/hogs, a fine long range round, plus it's easy to get ammo and loading components. barrel length won't matter all that much. a heavy barrel might be nice to have.
Look at it as your only (borrowing) the action. You can always put it back just the way it was if you keep the old parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbolung
Another good option would be a 6.5x06 which would even allow you to use all the 270 brass youve been saving.
Yobuck has a good point... Savages are like Legos for adults; the Chevy "small block" of the gun world. All you need is an action, barrel, torque wrench and headspace gauges and its back to original... I watched a group of fellers adjust rifle headspace from their Reese hitch lol
A golf bag full of barrels, one action, and a couple tools and your ready for anything. lol Well almost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russmerle