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Trying to decide. Here are the two front runners for my next rifle. The SWFA is a bit more money I have seen it for just over 1000 and the vortex is somewhere in the 950 range. I have seen that the vortex is very popular and many people use it. Everyone raves about the fixed power SWFA but I haven't heard much about this model. It will be going on a target rifle shooting out to 1000 yards no hunting it running around with it. I just want a nice high power scope in the $1,000 dollar range.
i dont know much about the SWFA but can tell you ive seen a few PSTs fail...one in particular the guy had just gotten back from being repaired and re-installed it the night before..we shot the next morning and it either broke in the first 2 shots again or never got fixed to begin with. on the other hand ive seen several PSTs that have never had an issue.
im not knocking vortex as i think they are great scopes and i own one...not a PST but a gen2....for the money your looking to spend id take a close look at these....
http://www.allnightforce.com/nightfo...opes-s/421.htm
ive shot with night force scopes for 7yrs or so...i had a 19lb rifle get knocked off the tail gate of my truck about 4yrs ago and it landed on the scope...the NXS still tracks perfectly to this day...i recently bought a GEN2 vortex and love it but if NF had a better christmas tree style reticle the GEN2 would be a NF F-1.
For $899 you can get a Leupold VX3 6.5-20x50 or 8.5-25x50 and end up with a much more reliable optic than the Vortex with better glass. I have had and seen too many Vortex scopes fail for me to ever recommend to anyone. Leupold carries the same great warranty but you will never have to use it.
I like the Vortex PST. I have the 6-24x FFP and have been using it on my .243 and it's done just fine. Below is my write up on it. Tracked well and I like the 2C reticle a lot. I have it in my Razor II 3-18x as well. The PST is a very good scope in that price range for FFP scopes.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_277/2...unted_up_.html
I know two people with the SS 5-20 and both have CA and one was giving the shooter problems tracking so any scope can have issues. There are a lot of people who have them with no issues as well as there are plenty of PST users with no issues.
I have 3 PST on my rifles. If I had the money, I would love to get a Gen II Razor but I don't see that happening in the near future. The oldest scope I have is 3 years old and I don't have any issues with it.
I have the Razor Gen II on my rifles now but I had a a few Viper PSTs before it. That's basically all I recommend to people looking to spend less than a grand. I've never heard of any failing, and they were fantastic scopes for the money in my personal experience. Vortex does have an unlimited lifetime warranty, so if for any reason it did brake, or you "accidentally" dropped it off a cliff, they either fix it or replace it with a new one. Best warranty I've heard to date, though I don't expect having to ever use it.
One thing to note, Nightforce voids the warranties on their scopes if they find that you used anything besides Nightforce mounting systems with them. I think I prefer the 'no questions asked' warranty from Vortex better.
ive seen 5 PSTs fail this year and like i said above one twice...ive also seen a steiner fail this year and one last year..so as Rob said its possible for any scope to fail its just a gamble...my suggestion to the OP is to google failed PSTs or something along those lines and see what you come up with and make your decision...personally i wouldnt buy one when i could get a MUCH better optic for less as stomp pointed out..or for the same price..or a few more bucks..and once again im not knocking vortex.
i also doubt NF would tell you sorry we wont warranty your scope because you had it in seekins rings...but i doubt youd ever be on the phone with NF for a warranty issue.
There are tens of thousands of the PSTs out there so you will hear more about them when they fail but they don't have a higher failure rate than most similar priced scopes. Also when they do the problems are taken care of very fast unlike some companies who have you wait months. People talk more when they have problems so you will hear about them when there are issues. People don't talk as much when they get a scope and are happy with it. And who said something about a scope being in Seekins rings? Seeing as Vortex sells the rebranded Seekins rings as their Precision Matched rings I don;t think they would have an issue with Seekins rings. And I know Vortex would not say anything about not warrantying a scope for any reason.
The Leupolds mentioned are SFP and the OP appears to be looking for FFP optics. Also Leupold isn't immune to scope issues. I had two and they both didn't track perfectly.
And sorry to say it but NF has issues too. My team mate's original F1 had turret issues which they refused to admit was a scope issue and that is the main reason we stopped shooting for NF. They tried to tell him he didn't know how to zero the scope and set the zero stop but he had no problem doing it on our other team mate's scope. There are also issues reported with the new 4-16 ATACR. NF makes a great optic but even NF isn't perfect.
I have owned six vortex scopes personally all of which failed me within the year. One particular viper the last one I owned was sent back multiple times and was never or broke immediately upon use. I simply threw it in the trash when I was tired of messing with it. That's a 100% failure rate for me. I have never had that kind of failures from even a tasco or BSA optic.
What models were the others and the Viper was the standard Viper model or the PSTs?
Rob i agree with you that any scope can fail and also that there are 10s of thousands of the PSTs out there with no issues but other than the few NF scopes you mention how many do you hear failing?
Not as many as the PST but they also cost 2-3x as much. It's the same as you don't hear of many if any of the Razor II scopes having issues. They are also a $2100-2500 scope. If you want more bullet proof performance then you need to spend some money.
The SHVs are about the same price as the PSTs...and your right we hear more when something goes wrong then we do when theres no issues.
I just bought a GEN2...about 600 rounds with it now so ill see how it holds up next season...i went with it over the F-1 because of the ebr-2c and it was hard for me to switch because ive had such great results with NF...i sure wish NF would come out with an ebr style reticle.
I'm sure all scope in this price range can have issues. Durability isn't a major issue for me since it's just going to be a range gun. I want something in the 5x20 power range and best possible turrets. I saw the SWFA has high density glass. Does that make a big difference in optical clarity?? I don't think I've ever used a scope with HD glass
Yes it does...Do you have a scheels or cabelas near you?
Nope. I'm in California. The best place with a nice choice of scopes is bass pro
Id go there and see what they have and look through a few...may not have what your looking for but you can get an idea of what the differences in cheap glass good glass and great glass looks like...most places (here in nevada)will take you outside to look through them.
I had one standard Viper the 6-24x44 I believe and the others were a 4-16x44 HS-Ts, 6-24x50 PSTs and one 6-24x50 HS LR. Not the Razors I admit but all junk just the same.
I've checked out a few scopes at the range and a few stores. I was really impressed with the viper but that was when I first started looking to buy a scope. I think the best I have put my hands on was a US Optics, very clear glass even when dailed up to the highest power. It also had the nicest turrets I have ever felt. Very positive clicks and seemed extremely well put together. I'm sure most of the 2000 + scopes are very impressive.
They are but so are a lot of the $900 -$1200 dollar scopes just need to find the right one for you.
In a word.............Sightron................ In your price range you can have the 6-24 or the 8-32 SIII model excelent glass and repeatable clicks.
Sightron, Burris, Vortex, Leupold, SWFA. Take your pick and don't look back.
I've got a PST FFP 6-24 that's been nothing but dead reliable for me for a few years now. Shoot matches with it as well, out to 1k yards. Never a problem. Nice thing about Vortex is their warranty. If something DOES happen, no matter what it is, they'll fix it or give you a new one. No questions asked.
Yes I really like the vortex warranty.
Yeah, I've literally never heard of someone having THAT terrible of luck with a Vortex. Anyone that I've talked to absolutely loves them, and all of them have been on their rifles for a year + with no issues. I too know plenty of guys that shoot comps with the PSTs, some of which take an absolute beating and still work just as well as they did when new.
I mean I guess it's possible to have that many issues with a specific scope, but in my experience with Vortex, if you were ever that unhappy with one of their products, they would just send you a new one. Saying that you had 5 PSTs fail in the same year is just silly unless you had them strapped to a 20mm cannon or were running them over with a truck everyday.
lol, that's what I thought too... hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by WinnieTheBoom
I don't even own a magnum. The largest caliber they were mounted on was a 6.5-284. They were mounted and torqued to Vortex specs in Burris Siganture Zee Rings. Optical clarity was fine, features were great, as well as the price but the relablility just was not there. I am a serious long range hunter and I practice constantly, this means dialing range and coming back to zero multiple times through out a range practice session. They would never track relaibly, none of them. I could dial out to 900 yards or so and come back to my 200 yard zero and be off 2 feet. Had an entire turret come off one of them during a range session. I even had one that when you adjusted the focus at the eye piece the reticule would twist with it about an 1/8th of a turn either way. These are all well taken care of fire arms, never dropped never abused and always mounted properly. I will say the warranty service was great and very fast but unfortunately I got to be on a first name basis with those clowns. The first thing people say about Vortex when you bring them up is that they have an excellent warranty. The reason they say this is because they have all had to use it.
I find this video clip from Tommy Boy sums up my feelings of Vortex Optics quite nicely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5dpBpaFiMo
That's nuts. I've not seen anything like any of that with my PST. Not saying it doesn't happen by any means, since there are a ton of them out there, but mine is rock solid and repeatable. I shoot tactical matches with mine, and practice as much as I can, and I dial the snot out of my turrets.
There is a reason you don't hear everyone talking about the Sightron, Nightforce, Leupold, March, Trijicon, or Zeiss warranty, just to name a few. It's because of the numbers game. They sell lots of scopes but don't have the returns for warranty work in the same percentage that Vortex does. In my short life i have had one cheap Bushnell fail, back when they used wires instead of etched lens i had a stadia break and i have owned a truckload of cheap scopes. Had one of the lower priced Sightron scopes fail, crosshairs turned inside the tube almost 45 degrees. I am using Sightron almost exclusively now which adds up to almost 15 scopes. Of 3 Vortex scopes i have had 1 fail, repaired and fail again. Gave one to SNL and he bumped it getting in deer stand and knocked it off enough to miss a deer by more than 2 feet at about 50 yards, In defense of that scope it did adjust back to on target and has held up so far. The third one is on a 338-06 and doesn't see much action these days. My Sightron hunting scopes are not babied and have been knocked around and they ride in the truck uncased without a problem other than noted above. IMHO Vortex has a super warranty as do the other brands of quality scopes but the best warranty is the one you never have to use because Mr Murphy will visit you at the most inconvenient time.
Yeah, I don't know if stomp just has terrible luck or what, but I haven't seen more than a handful of Vipers fail in the 2-3 years that I've been shooting them. Both of mine have always tracked perfectly and held zero without any issues. I will admit that I've never shot a match with one, and that they're used almost strictly for ELR/benchrest/prone shooting, but I still can't imagine them being THAT bad, especially having sent it back so and having it replaced so many times.
I have more confidence in my Razor Gen II than any of the Nightforces that I've owned, and while that certainly has something to do with personal preference, I don't see them being outperformed much, if at all, at any level of shooting. While I agree that the best warranty is the one that you never have to use, scopes can be lifetime investments. I don't doubt that Nightforce has a great warranty, but it's hard to trust it more than an unlimited lifetime warranty when you hear all the reasons that they'll void it.
Difference of opinion/experience I guess. My experience with multiple Vortex products and CS has been nothing short of exceptional. Guess I just don't get that same feeling with other big name manufacturers or products.
These are just the accounts of my personal scopes. I have friends and clients that have had similar problems with their optics. The best one I have seen happen on a deer hunt last year and this was with a 4-16x44 HST. A client of mine was hiking into a glassing position up on a ridge. His hunting pack was equipped with a scabbard for the rifle and the rifle was carried muzzle down in the scabbard of his pack. The weather was less than ideal with moisture in the air with kind of an on again off again light mist of a rain. Long story short after about an hour of glassing we find a buck to shoot and when he pulls his rifle out and looks through the scope all he can see is water. I bet there were 3 or 4 ounces of water in that thing. Vortex replaced that scope and he hasn't had any other issues that I am aware of but that one failed at the most inopportune time.
Like i said in the beganing of this thread i personally seen 5 PSTs fail this year...one had just come back from warranty work and 1 shot was very close to zero the next 4 were all over the target at 100yds.
SIIISS 6-24X50
This is the scope you want for the money you want to spend.
I owned 3 vortex vipers. 2 pst/1 hs. The hs and one pst failed.... Elevation turret on hs and the focus on the pst. The pst was several shots from new. Hs bout 100 rounds in. Both on 308 I now own nothing in vortex. But, great warranty. Only thing nice about the warranty was I could sell the scopes as new. Since they replaced both with new scopes. I run sightrons now. Have 3. Several thousand shots later and zero issues
I have been very happy with my primary arms scope. I want my next scope to have a bit more magnification. I have read and been told that when you have a higher powered scope and you turn it up the clarity in the quality of the glass becomes visible. My end goal is to be able to shoot out past 1,000 yards. I would bet most people shooting that distance are using $2,000+ scopes. But I really need to stick to my budget.
I've used my sightrons to shoot out to 1,440 yards so far. Took a whitetail deer at 1,121 yards last week with my 6-24 sightron. Been using these for over 5 years now. It's about quality not just price
You guys must not belong to any other firearms forum or you'd know who Rob01 is to the shooting community. I would wager that he's used more optics than most of you combined.
OP, if you really want very good information, read what Rob01 writes and take it to heart. He really does know what he's talking about as he has years of experience on the competition circuit.
I can say that Vortex CS/warranty is outstanding. I had a regular Viper and during the manufacturing process there was plastic shavings inside the glass. When I called Vortex they shipped me my replacement Viper before I even sent back the defective optic. That is unheard of in most industries. I know I worked for Streamlight in the repair department and SL would never send a replacement without first receiving the defective product. Vortex also shipped to me a return label with the replacement optic.
IMO, Vortex will take care of it's customers and they have grown as a company very quickly. I'm certain there is always growing pains of getting that large overnight.
For those that say NF does not fail or X product...you are living in a fantasy and only making those comments as fanboys. The reality is any and ever product can and will fail. No matter how much you pay for that product...it's the cost of production and the cost of doing business. It's how the company will react when the customer has a failure.
I know I certainly wouldn't choose a Leupold over a Vortex.
most of us know who rob is...we know who he is in the shooting world and we do respect what he says but the fact of the matter is the the PSTs fail more than any other scope on the market...period...i agree that they are an outstanding Co. and have grown faster than other optics Co in a short time and that with growth comes unforeseen issues.and the biggest reason they have grown so fast is because of their outstanding warranty and customer service.Quote:
Originally Posted by aubie515
and NO ONE SAID that a NF scope(or any other scope)is above failure...i have repeatedly said that ANY scope can fail and that i have personally seen 2 steiner scopes fail...one last year and one this year...and for you to post that guys here are fanboys?LMAO!! read your post to yourself and tell us who sounds like a fanboy...and as i said above...i shot NF scopes for 7yrs and just bought a razor HD gen2 so we will see how it holds up....590+ rounds and counting.
We're speaking from experience... Many of us have owned multiple scopes of several brands and configurations.
My experience owning 3 Burris, 3 vortex vipers, 3 Sightrons is this,
Burris- good quality scope that tracks reliably and holds zero (on hunting rifles and AR 15 setups). Used about 8 years. Models are Fullfield II and E1
Sightron: tracks excellent, great glass, so far 100% reliable FOR ME. These scopes are used for long range shooting. Used about 5 years. Models are all SIII
Vortex- great glass, excellent customer service, 66% failure rate. Used for hunting and long range shooting. Used about 6-8 months. Models are 2 PST and 1 HS
Thanks for the kind words Aubie but I won't take anything away from the other's experiences. I just give mine to go into the mix. I only have 2 PSTs now, the 6-24 and 2.5-10x32. No issues yet. Hopefully there won't be.
i think thats what we all do Rob and maybe Aubie feels like we were attacking you or vortex and thats not the case just giving the OP the feed back he asked for...like i said most of us know who you are and respect your input.
Rob. Did you purchase your scopes at retail or similar or were you offered scopes? Serious question not being an ass.
Got a discount. Basically the LE/mil price.
Thanks
I suppose you only read what you want to read because your comments below is not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by stomp442
Fact is production will yield a lemon from time to time. I'm not saying that Vortex is the very best optics company out there, but they seem to offer some great features without the high price tag compared to their competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by LongRange
I find it hard to believe that stomp442 has better "luck" using BSA and yet he's had "100%" failure with Vortex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aubie515
Your right i missed that...i try to read but im not real good at it....as far as stomps experiences with BSA and vortex i can not comment as ive never owned a BSA or a lower end vortex...i have owned a few leupolds and never had issues with them but they were on ARs...one is 8yrs old and still works as new...as far as vortex goes the gen2 is the first one ive owned...i really liked the gen1 glass but didnt like the turrets or the huge reticle at high power...so far i love everything about the gen2 but like i said i personally would not buy a PST after seeing the failure rate of them this year.
I also think there are much better optics in the $900 dollar range than the PST...most have been posted in this thread...Russ will have to make his own decision in the end and if he goes with the PST i hope he has the same luck you and Rob have had.
I will readily admit the BSA and Tasco scopes that I have owned are junk scopes and they were replaced with much better optics when the funds were available but they still lasted longer than any vortex I have ever mounted and they still work. I now have a closet full of leupold and Nikon rifle scopes on my match rifles and hunting rifles and never had one issue with any of them. I wouldn't really consider my self a fan boy but I do know I hate vortex. I wouldn't even keep one if it was given to me.
LOL. Guess there's at least one in every crowd. I have and will continue to use Vortex with absolute confidence (but I may have to add a Sightron to the fleet).Quote:
Originally Posted by stomp442
Doing some reading on the sightron and its looks like a very well made optic. I can't believe they make a10x50 power wow. Not sure I would ever need that much power in a scope
some of the guys shooting F-class use 80x march scopes.