223 vs 25-06 on prairie dogs

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There are many good prairie dog cartridges ranging from the 14 Walker up through the original 17 Remington and the 222 Remington, 222 Remington Magnum, the 219 Donaldson Wasp, the 220 Swift, and the various 6mm's.

This thread is focused exclusively on the direct comparison of the 223 Remington and the 25-06 Remington.

After umpteen years and thousands of side-by-side comparisons at ranges up to a hundred yards...

Have reached the absolute conclusion that any prairie dog hit by a 75-grain Hornady VMAX fired from a 30-inch 25-06 looks much less healthy than one shot by a wimpy 223.

The chances of even the finest small animal vet piecing back together a prairie dog hit from a 25-06 is remote.

This conclusion having been reached with scientific certitude, what excuse can one give for continuing to even own a 223 ?







Of course, the 257 Weatherby and the 264 Win Mag can up the ante a little.

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My findings preaty much mirror yours with a couple of exeptions.
In my world cost is relitive and dead is dead!
Dont get me wrong its fun to wackem with the 25-06 once in a while but the 223 gets more use.
I'd rather hand my 25-06 off to a fellow shooter so I can better see the acrobatics ;D

I agree,dead is dead.The 06 is way more expensive to shoot.

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You should keep the gun powder and bullet making workers and their families in mind.

Using a 25-06 over a 223 is one way to "give back" to society.



And this "dead is dead" business is highly exaggerated.

You don't know how many of those 223 shot prairie dogs recover in their emergency rooms.

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Maybe you should step up to a 22-250,they fragment the gophers,send em straight to the morgue.

I think that at the end of the day, your shoulder would feel better if you shot the 223 or 22-250

And this "dead is dead" business is highly exaggerated.

You don't know how many of those 223 shot prairie dogs recover in their emergency rooms.



You forget Mr. Hammer, we shoot Savage rifles and that means a very high percentage of head shots and no recovery. ;)

Any that come even close to recovery from a 25-06 hit are likely in need of an "AIR" ambulance.

You don't know how many of those 223 shot prairie dogs recover in their emergency rooms.

Now that right ther is funny!!!! My guess is not many recover from their emergency room care ;)

Had the 25-06(Savage Axis not the J) and its just too much gun for my shoulder to be shooting more than a couple of times.......The 75 grain Vmax will definatly outdo the little 40 grainers out of the 223, Ya gotta hittem first and in the wind the 25-06 is a hands down winner!

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If y'all will quit using them little carbines and get a rifle with some heft to it...

Maybe a sixteen pounder...

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Y'all do realize that there are government grants which pay for 25-06 ammunition and rifles used to shoot prairie dogs ?

It falls under the Department of Agriculture's spreading of natural fertilizer program.

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;D

i own a 25/06 and its a fine cartridge.
to use that exclusivly for prairie dogs would be like repairing a car with an adjustable wrench.
id rather use the right wrench for a given situation.
given a choice ill use the 223 w/50s the 22/250 ai w/60s the 6x284 w 105s and the 6.5 wsm w 140s.
in that order. but thats just me.

Personally, I dont know what took me so long to switch from a .223 to a .25 caliber. Here in Michigan we've got groundhogs that are *almost* as tough as prarie dogs. Now that I can sling a .25 caliber 75gr v-max at 3400 plus, (unfortunately I am shooting a roberts but should be enough for woodchucks *barely*) maybe I will start asking farmers for some funding to help support the natural fertiliziation of their fields.

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Originally Posted by Hammer

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Y'all do realize that there are government grants which pay for 25-06 ammunition and rifles used to shoot prairie dogs ?

It falls under the Department of Agriculture's spreading of natural fertilizer program.

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Speaking of spreading fertilizer... ;)

Hammer I gotta say that I have been a big fan of the Quarter Bore for many years! I just purchased my very first .223 the other day in a Savage model 12, already had a Ruger in a 25-06 (bench gun bull barrel) and it is real accurate out passed 400 yards on critters I wish to put down for keeps. I think the .223 is less nerve racking at the bench but other than that I love my 25-06's.

his conclusion having been reached with scientific certitude, what excuse can one give for continuing to even own a 223 ?

Funny how you left out the most important facts. Your 25-06 will shoot 10 shots @ 3400FPS before the barrel overheats. The fact I can see the complete shot thru my scope is something you can't. When you pull the trigger you miss the "SHOW" .My Savage .223 will go 30-40 shooting a 34 grain dogtowns @ 3850+ FPS and W748 Powder.

Now if my memory serves me right, when P-Dogs attack you might get some dumb ones in the first few shots (think Indian attack with a black powder rifle), but if you are waiting for your barrel to cool down you miss the second wave. Then the third wave, as you know they will eventually mount a charge and overtake your position and eventually bite your Cahones off! So to make my statement about which gun is better, dead is dead, I go for safety and choose the "low powered .223". I still have my Cahones and 3-4 times the kills you do. Bigger Body count numbers are always Better!

If you want bigger, try a 300 WBY with a 180 Sierra Matchkings, aim about 6 inches short of the target, the deflected shrapnel will vaporize the intended rodent.

Just trying to help....

The 110 v-max is more impressive in the wby....

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When using the 30 caliber and larger Weatherbys on stopping charges...

Prefer Swift A-frame bullets for their large expanded frontal area and their high weight retention and deep penetration.

But at some time, we must go to the truly big bores to repel the attack.



As to being able to see the total battle scene and the devastating effects, just go to a heavier rifle.

Rifle bounce is strictly a phenomena of the carbine set.

There are some good prairie dog rifles that weigh over eighty pounds.

Hydraulic, mechanical, and electrical turrets and gun mounts have been around a long time.



As far as overheating barrels go...

That is why you use a War Wagon so that you can have a hundred or more guns at the ready.

This is also why the Savage quick change barrel is so beneficial.



Just keep in mind, the 223 Remington is neither fish nor fowl.

It does not have the accuracy of the original 222 Remington nor the velocity potential of the 222 Remington Magnum.




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All P-dogs taken prisoner have told me the same thing, they Hate the .204 Ruger I use. ;D

Hi the 25-06 is the most versatile gun I own, and nothing is more versatile than 70gr blitz kings propelled by 60gr of 4350 or RL17 to make a 3900 + fps statement
nuff said.

Dean

5 lb CO2 bottle upside down in the back of the Tahoe, plumbing and valves, small orifice nozzle (.020") that fits inside an open bolt = no more barrel heating worries

;D

Now one thing I can NOT due with a 25-06 of mine is shoot 500 rounds a day and be able to lift my fork in the morning at breakfast! I do believe the 25-06 is one heck of a dual purpose caliber for deer and P-dogs alike but I have more fun shooting the .223 and running up the scores on p-dogs than using the 1/4-bore all day long. Now if there is a varmint out there a fair piece, like 350 plus and I want to pull his tag, I simply put that 25-06 rifle on the target.........THE END.

I might shoot my 25-06 around 200 times on a dog hunt but I shoot that 22-250 and .223 at least 2000 rounds during the week. I still love that new .204 Ruger I have in a model 12 Savage. It is so much fun to shoot!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hammer

Just keep in mind, the 223 Remington is neither fish nor fowl.

It does not have the accuracy of the original 222 Remington nor the velocity potential of the 222 Remington Magnum.

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OK, I can understand the 223 has less case capacity that the 222M, but how is the 222 more accurate than the 223? why would adding .060" behind the shoulder detract from the accuracy?

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Originally Posted by Hammer

what excuse can one give for continuing to even own a 223 ?

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Price
recoil
availability
shots till too hot
weight
range of barrel twist to fully utilize the caliber
I used it in "insert theater here"
I have a .223
I don't want a long action rifle for "insert reason",
I don't want to sell something that I have ammo, reloading materials, and rifles for
Having a well rounded collection means not leaving out the .224 variety
and lastly, not really lastly, but will be last for now, I can never have enough guns

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... how is the 222 more accurate than the 223?

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How many national benchrest rifle championships have been won with the 223 ?

How many with the 222 ?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hammer

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Quote:

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... how is the 222 more accurate than the 223?

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How many national benchrest rifle championships have been won with the 223 ?

How many with the 222 ?


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What difference does adding or subtracting 1/16 of length on otherwise identical cases have on accuracy? Not trolling here, but why is one so much better in you opinion?

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Can't explain all the reasons.

Perhaps the longer case neck of the 222 accounts for something.


But in the quarter century before the introduction of the 6PPC...

Nearly every benchrest record was set and every national championship was won with the 222 Remington.

There has to be some, but I don't know of a single benchrest record or championship with a 223.

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it just seems rather odd& illogical that 2 cases where all the specs should be the same other than 0.060 in case length would perform so much differently. :-\
how does the 223 perform using 222 load data? is the throat/lead different?

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But the specs, like the case neck length, are not the same.

Also, maybe the case capacity and powder volume of the 222 just hits a nice sweet spot.

Or maybe the 223 is cursed by the gods...

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Thinking of quarter bore... why was the 25-08 or .25 Souper never a big hit? I would think that would be an excellent varmint gun. Is it too close to the .243 and just never caught on?

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In the 308 Winchester size department we have the 243 Win, 260 Rem, 7mm-08 Rem, 308 Win, 338 Federal, and 358 Winchester.

For varmints, looks like the 6mm's took over once the 243 Win and 6mm Rem were commercialized and sort of snuft out interest in 257 caliber varmint guns.

Of course, anyone with a small bore is taking their life into their own hands.

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I had a 223 Savage bbl re chambered to 222 by an OLD TIME gunsmith. He said his 222 has over 10K rounds down the tube and still looks great. It is his favorite fun gun. He would like to play with the fast twist but is getting up in years now.

If a guy like HARRY Mc GOWEN likes it what more do I need before saying go for it.

Hammer,
You remind me of Elmer Keith. "If its bigger its better". ;D
Martin

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Quote:

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You remind me of Elmer Keith.

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I got to know Elmer Keith before he passed away.

Visited with him in his home many times.

Tortured him with questions.

I have his 458 African rifle.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hammer

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Quote:

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You remind me of Elmer Keith.

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I got to know Elmer Keith before he passed away.

Visited with him in his home many times.

Tortured him with questions.

I have his 458 African rifle.

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Hammer:

I'm sure you know how truly "Blessed" you are to have known the man....and to have had the opportunity to learn from him. A once in many life times type of opportunity.

Wayne

Hammer,

Good on you for knowing Elmer that well!!!

He truely seems to have gotten to you during your formative years!!!!

But I thought you were a Swift man?


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Last year, I built a Savage into a bull 26" SS .25-06 ......... I like it.

A few weeks ago I did some tradin' and ended up with an A-bolt Boss in .25-06 ......

I am FAST becoming a big fan of that cartridge!!

My pre-.44 mag time is now considered to me as my "lost days" ......... I have no doubt that the same will be felt about my recent conversion to the .25-06!

But my .223's and .222's, .22-250 and several .243's are not going anywhere.

If the job calls for a Toyota ........ a Toyota gets the nod ............ IF the job calls for a Mack truck ......... then it's a Mack!

Sometimes one only needs a bicycle .......... then I reach for a .22 mag or the .17 HMR ..... or just reach for a fly swatter or sic the dogs on it!!!

Best regards

Three 44s

I would bet that I have put more p-dogs to pieces & zero survivors with my .223s using a 50gr vmax in the last 6 months than most do in an entire lifetime and without as much noise or recoil & at a lesser expense................ :P

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Congratulations on your past six months.

Wish we all could have helped you with your burden.


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I GOT IT!!!!!!!!!! ONE OF EACH!!!!!!!!!!!

The best situation would be to teach yourself to be ambidextrous and have one for each shoulder. Once you could master that art one could finally have an honest opinion of which one was better.... until then it is only a matter of opinion :o

Hammer,

Your comparison study needs to be widened to include the 22/243, 22/243 AI, 22/6mm, & 22/6mm AI.

25 - 30 foot verticle and 25-30 foot horizontal dispersion at 400 yards with a 75 gr AMax is nothing short of sublime.

Results here of my 22/6mm AI running 75 Amax at a slow 3650 (can be juiced to 3900+):
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/dcloco/226AI75AMa.jpg[/img]

[img width=337 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/dcloco/226ai75AMb.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/dcloco/226ai75AMe.jpg[/img]

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Haven't killed anywhere near the number of prairie dogs that many of you have.

Just hope y'all are having as much fun in the prairie dog towns as I have had.

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gonna be having that much fun in about 2 weeks. :P..... Not takin a 25-06 this year, but am takin a 223, 22-250, 6br, 260, and 308 ;D. I gotta say I love shooting the 22-250, but I have used a 25-06 once and have a friend that shoots only a 25-06(well, and his AR) and it is an absolute hammer on prarie dogs... Kinda has me wanting to build another one actually... ::)

cant wait to go this year. I have some frustration from work that I need to get out of my system, and this will be just what the Dr ordered. :D.