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Fella's wasn't sure where to put this so it landed here, I recall some time ago about some low noise blue dot loads for the 223, I'd like to find some information on this a full house 223 load is pretty loud and if I recall they were getting pretty good velocity just not near the noise. Thanks for the help in advance. Later,
Kirk
I believe the gentleman's name is James Calhoon. Google him up, you should find it in his "snake loads".
..12.5grs of Blue-Dot is kinda the magic no.#... ;)
[img width=600 height=449]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/bd.jpg[/img]
I've used this load from the Hogdon website:
55 grain FMJ over 3.2 grains of Clays. It lists the velocity as 1060.
I have used pistol powders with everything from 33 grain Hornet bullets to 69 grain SMK's. I don't recall off the top of my head load data for the various powders with the various bullets.
A powder to look at also is Trail Boss it is fluffy and fills a lot of the case making it more consistent. I can say that there was differences in noise levels depending on whether the powder was at the rear of the case or towards the front of the case. This is the reason I started using Trail Boss with some 30 caliber subsonic loads.
Dolomite
...It does that alright...But she just does'nt get-er done in the .223...It's fun to shoot in the old 45/70 with 325gr. lead bullets...Groundhogs under 100yds hate it..lol.. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly
I use 12.5gr of blue dot w a 35 gr vmax in my .223ai and get great accuracy, low noise and 3100 fps. I shoot this load more than anything else in my rifle when shooting at 100yds.its deadly on woodchucks too
I would like to shoot the 55gr. bullets since I have a mess of them and didn't have a clue as to where to start at, I know the shotgun/pistol powders will spike like crazy with the pressure so I thought asking woul be better than just trying to see what happened. This load would be for taking varmints in a populated area and the nosie is the biggest issue I have so far at least with one neighbor the others are glad to have me doing what I am but I'm sure the warden and sheriff are getting tired of the phonecalls from one person >:( I'm not looking for subsonic loads just something quieter than my K Hornet. Thanks fella's I'll have to check out some sites this evening when I get home. Later,
Kirk
What powders do you have on hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksmirk
What barrel length are you shooting from?
If you are starting from scratch I can test some loads for you using Trailboss which would be my first choice. I do not have any 55 grain bullets but I do have some 53 grain Sierras I can use. I also have 40 grain V-Max, 35 grain Hornet and 69 grain SMK's I can use to test with. I have a personal range at home so testing isn't a problem for me, load a few walk outside and shoot. Do this until I get something that works.
The load using Clays is a little louder than a 22lr but not as loud as a 22 magnum out of a 22" barrel. It does spike pressures a lot though. Trailboss seems a bit slower than Clays so that should be better.
This might keep you from having to buy a bunch of different powders to try before finding one that works.
Dolomite
dolomite_supafly that would be freakin' awesome! all the powder I have on hand at this time is RL-15, RL-17, and Retumbo I've not gotten any shotgun/pistol powder yet kinda want to have a clue as to what I'm after money is a bit tight these days to be buying a mess of stuff I may not use.
The rifle is a Savage 12 26" barrel I've got a mess of the Varmint nightmare 55gr, 55gr V-Max, and 75gr A-Max bullets for what I'll be doing the 55gr. nightmare bullets will probably work the best and a max shot of 100 yards would be pushing it I'm sure! I have GM205M primers and LC brass. My range right now has change into my hunting area so were not shooting over there at this time. I'm sure we could figure out something for your time I could send ya cause what your offering would be a serious benifit to me! what velocity are you getting? I'd like to be around 2500fps so it would be kinda flat, my targets are pretty small where I would have to hit them so they won't run into a neighbors yard to die. Again dolomite_supafly thank you very much. Later,
Kirk
With the Varmint nightmare 55gr bullets and Blue Dot somewhere around the 11 to 13.5 range will do what you want
If I recall correctly from my trap shooting days, Blue Dot was an awfully dirty powder to use. Good for heavy back up loads though. Loaded some once for 45 long colt and it was dirty. Hope they have cleaned it up. I don't believe I would want to put it thru my rifle barrels otherwise. Maybe the increase in pressure in a rifle cartridge causes it to burn cleaner than in a shotgun. Sounds interesting though. Quick
I'll try to work up a load based on my 53 grain bullets or if I can get to town today I'll try to pick up some 55 grain bullets because I am out anyways. I don't have a chrono but I can get you close to what you are asking based on other load data. I do a lot of odd stuff, look at some of my other projects I have done.
Using pistol powders with that long barrel will get you a QUIET shooting rifle. You will still have to contend with sonic crack but it will almost be like having a silencer on it. I have done a lot of work on subsonic loads that use pistol powders and have been successful in making a 30 cal load that was as quiet as a subsonic 22 LR fired from a 16" barreld 10/22. This same load, according to a program, estimated the muzzle energy that was equal to a 357 magnum when fired out of my 24" barrel. Most of these loads burned the powder in the first 4"-6" of barrel.
When trying to work up a quiet load the way I approach it is to use faster powders that way you have burned all the powder and pressures are dropping by the time the bullet exits. This does a couple of things, keeps the muzzle flash down and the muzzle noise down.
I only have a 18" barrel and that is fine. As long as it shoots fine in mine the same load in you 26" barrel is only going to be quieter.
I appreciate it but I don't expect anything, actually there is a reason I don't mind doing it.
Dolomite
If you don't mind me asking what 30 caliber round would that have been? I've got a little 30 M1 carbine and that just sounds like too much fun.
Again thank you so much for the advice! if you don't mind I may in the future bother you for more information. Later,
Kirk
It was a 7.62x25 Tokarev. I had a Savage chambered in it then loaded it with heavy bullets. I could also shoot cheap surplus in a pinch if I wanted to. It was a really fun round that hit with great authority compared to the noise level. Everyone who shot it just laughed because it was extremely quiet yet kicked pretty hard. The two didn't match, hard kick and low noise. Also, because I used fast burning pistol powders all the powder was burned in the first 6" or so and by the time the bullet exited the muzzle most of the pressure was gone resulting in absolutely no muzzle flash at night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksmirk
Drop was kind of rough, with a 25 yard zero I had roughly 15" of drop at 150 yards. At that distance I still had roughly the same energy as a 40 S&W at the muzzle.
I am not sure if you could do the same with a 30 carbine. Perhaps if you bored the case out to allow the heavy bullets to be seated deeper it might work. I don't have nor have I ever owned a M1 carbine so I don't know.
Feel free to ask away, if I know I'll answer, if not I won't even venture a guess on anything that might hurt someone.
Dolomite
First post ,
Long time Savage onwer ;)
I havent shot this load unprotected , but can tell through the plugs that there is a considerable difference in report from full house factory and varget hand loads, Then with my accuracy load which is a charge of 21.5gr reloder 7, under a 55gr V-Max in remington brass with a cci srp..
And from a 26" barrel they are moving along at 3100+ ... So a little better then rat medicine though it would still work for that purpose ;D
Lakota
I have some data but we are working on a few different avenues to get to the same result.
I'll I/M you when I get everything together.
Dolomite
I'll just work on the 223 loading for the time being I'm thinking the M1 carbine needs to find a new home and a Stevens 200 in 223 needs to replace it ;D I've got my LR rifles but nothing for these short range shots on deer! I'm used to 100 - 600 yard shot in western oklahoma now I'm in central oklahoma using long range rifles on shots of 50 yards :o messy is all I can say. Later,
Kirk
I/M sent with load data.
Dolomite
First off a huge thank you to dolomite_supafly for the load help! you have no idea how much help and advice I got and now a little knowledge to boot!! THANK YOU!
Got some HP-38 powder Wed. after work and some 55gr. Sierra 1365's did a little loading on Friday and a range trip, got my zero confirmed with my 55gr. V-Max p-dog loads and we to work on the reduced report loads, fella's I'll admit it took me some time to squeeze the trigger on the first round since I have never done anything with pistol powder in a rifle and have seen some nasty pictures do to the crazy pressure spikes and actions scattered so yes I was nervous to say the least! sent the first round downrange and I'll have to say I was laughing so hard when I saw the first hole appear in the target with hardly any report what so ever, I mean all I heard was the bullet crack without the boom ;D yes I was happy. I shot a few more rounds when the guy next to me complimented me on my fine 22 rifle? huh I ask him, he said I must have a small fourtune in a Savage rifle converted over to 22LR! I felt bad but I started laughing and told him it was a 223, he called BS so I showed him and he just could not believe that a 223 could be that quiet! next thing I know I had a small croud gathered around me and a bunch of grown men laughing at the lack of report.
I put out a couple of Coke bottles filled with water just to check and while the full house V-Max exploded the bottle the HP-38 55gr GameKing bullet really spread the other bottle which really surprised me and the others that had gathered to watch this popgun shoot. I've attached a target and these rounds kept the same POI as my full house V-Max rounds, while they are not AS accurate they are a **** of a lot better than I had expected!
Again I must give out a huge thanks to dolomite_supafly for all his help and guidance!
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/Ksmirk/001-2.jpg[/img]
Later,
Kirk
How are the primers looking?
Are you going to be using a magazine to feed these? If not seat the bullets closer to the lands and it should tighten up those groups more. On my gun the difference between standard length and at the lands is about a 3/4" difference in group size. Same ammo, same loading session, everything is the same except seating depth and the closer to the lands the smaller the group.
Where you able to verify the velocities using the chrono?
Something else you might check if you can is muzzle flash at night. I had some loads for the 30 cal that NO flash at all. This may be the case with this load also because all the powder is burned within the first 2" of the barrel. All you need to do now is get a can to have it "Hollywood" quiet. ;D
What distance are those groups? If that is at 100 then those are very good, even at 50 those are definately going to be able to do what you want. Looks like you have a winner that should keep some of the heat off of you by your neighbors, crappy neighbors can make your life miserable.
And as always if you have any questions feel free to ask.
Dolomite
I just put these at max for the magazine didn't play at all with seating depths and the primers looked just like when they were put in. With what I'm doing I'll have to use the magazine since I need to get as many critters ahen I get the chance. I didn't get to chrony these loads the chrony is 50 miles from me and I was in a time crunch for range time. I do know the 10.6 load smashed the plastic pop bottle I put up and yes these groups were at 100 yards so I was happy to say the least! those are 1" squares on the target and I feel any of those loads would work fine for what I'm trying to accomplish, may tonight pop a round off to see if there is any muzzle flash but I'm guessing there will be none being the 26" barrel length.
Bunny huggin' neighbors sure dont like the job I have to do but hey with all the corn they are feeding the critters sure do taste good ;D I may have to play a little more with those loads, I believe some load development is going to happen just need to find the time! I go to work and it's dark and dark when I get home then play catch-up on the weekends, I need to talkto the warden about a night permit. Later,
Kirk
And a pound of powder lasts forever!
If the primers still look good then you have some wiggle room.
Just work up SLOWLY, pressures rise pretty quickly when shooting pistol powders.
Another option for getting closer to the lands while still being able to use the magazine is seat the bullet backwards. The ogive is different so you might be able to seat on the lands and still be able to use the magazine. A lot of people do this with subsonic loads to help with ballistics because it acts almost like a raindrop flying through the air. Most people report that there is no difference in the accuracy as long as velocities remain below the speed of sound. I have never done it with a 223 but I may tru it with a fresh 308 build.
In your case having the flat meplat of the base of the bullet hit first will dump more energy. A bullet with a meplat will act like a bonded core bullet without having to rely on expansion to provide a decent wound channel. The hydrostatic shock with a meplat is as good as most HP's while providing more penetration than a similarly weighted HP.
Here are some links to subsonic stuff, most don't apply to 223 but are interesting reads for anybody starting in the reduced velocity game:
Hawk Precision Bullets
Subconic how-to
If you take problem animals a lot you might consider using another caliber because most of the 223/556's success comes from velocity. I have a friend who bought a Handirifle in .357 magnum and loads it with heavy Hawk bullets. The same person is also getting ready to another project using 45-70 using 500gr+ bullets at subsonic velocities through a suppressor. My wife has a 45 ACP Savage bolt gun I built for her for the same exact reason you are doing this, nuicance anumals. It provides a light kicking rifle with more than enough energy to take care of anything that might show up. I have loaded it to factory specs and it is quiet as a 22lr firing high velocity ammo. When loaded to 45 Super levels it is still less than 22 magnum sound levels and recoil is about the same as a 410 shotgun. I have even loaded it with 300gr SP's, those are moving slow but hit with great authority.
+1, with his loads that is over 600 loaded rounds, compared to half that with most other powders at "normal" velocities.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentWin
On a different note, I took a 7.62x39 AR I built to a show today to sell. I built it to shoot HEAVY bullets, 180gr+ bullets. It has a 24" barrel that has shot less than 1/2 MOA during initial testing. It has a lapped .308 bore with a 10 twist, it still shoots factory ammo but accuracy is a little off. I had some interest in it but decided against selling it after reading about your success. I have decided to give my AR another chance.
Sorry to be so long winded but trying different ideas always interests me as well as the fact I like to help when I can.
Dolomite
A pound off powder is gonna last a long time I can promise you that! I was looking at one of the handi rifles in 357 and was going to run a 357 Max reamer for a little more kick excuse the pun, I shot a couple of folks handi's and it just ain't for me I guess. I am thinking another rifle build as soon as I get done with my 308 Tac rifle but I've been working on it so far for almost 2 years now and was thinking about a 6x45 so I could shoot a bit more heavy bullet but still be able to push the pedal for some more speed if I wanted too and since I have found you guys and these pop gun rounds that may just be the ticket to a critter control rifle for these short ranges I'm shooting, I doubt I ever go sub-sonic since the crack really doesn't even sound right for a rifle from the 223 that people don't put the 2 together I'm thinking not to mention with the 223 the bullets are still traveling fast enough to do what they are supposed to do for human dispatching.
I was thinking about working up in tenths until I see some sort of pressure signs with these loads but I'll have to admit these flake powders are messy compaired to the others and it's taking some getting used too, funny how I noticed I would turn over the cases to make sure there was not a charge already in the case I guess I'm safer than I thought or just nervous! I need to make some dummies to check the distance to the lands with these bullets, I know what it is with the 75 A-Max but I'm thinking just seat these out as far as I can and try to adjust with powder charge weights like I do with my 308 and did when I had my AR. Later,
...If you're measuring off the ongive..They are going to be the same when you set the seater for them...lol...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksmirk
This is exactly what my friend did. It wasn't so much so he could use 357 maximum but so the heavy bullets could hang way out of the 38 spc and 357 mag cases. This allowed him to get enough powder in the cases to be able to tune the rifle. I ran into a problem of a short throat once. When using long, heavy bullets I couldn't get enough powder in the case to make it work because they had to be seated so deep in the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksmirk
Dolomite
1Shot, no shat but thanks for clearing that up for me ROTFLMAO! it's a bit different when going from the 75 A-Max to a 55gr GameKing that's what I'm talking about. yeah I'm pokin' fun nothing serious from me!
Told the little brother about these and he's off tomorrow to purchase some powder! these should be great crow medicine he thinks. We have had company over every night since I loaded these so I have not had a chance to check the flash in the dark yet but when I do I'll let ya know. Later,
Kirk
..The only thing different about it is how far the 55's hang out in the neck over the 75's..If you run off the ongive...It makes no diff. except how much bullet is left in the neck..When I run my 69's vs 50's the distance is still the same to the lands when set with the same ongive no#...Now if you're setting them off the tip then I'll have to Laugh My A Off.. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ksmirk
Ok I totally misread what you wrote in your original post! I smell what your steppin' in now ;D Later
Kirk
My little brother tried these loads from his 223 with a 20" barrel and they were loud? I wonder what is different? I'd not think that 6" of barrel would make that much difference but then again I have never messed with these type loads before, any ideas? he loaded 10.6 and said it was not much quieter than his fullhouse loads and from my rifle they sound more like a 22LR or 22Mag! strange! Later,
Kirk
Barrel length makes a huge difference. The pressure drops a lot with the extra 6" you have.
The reloading data I sent you was the same for 18" and 26" barrels. The difference is the amount of barrel available to allow the pressure to drop before exit.
He can try a faster powder to try to get the burn to happen quicker. Problem is the pressure may spike to high before he reaches an acceptable velocity. He might try the loads I sent you using Trail Boss but before he buys any let me know and I will try to find out what the max load is. My 223 is a 18" barrel setup so if I can work up something that is quiet in my gun then it should be in your brother's also.
Dolomite