Loose barrel

The barrel on my Striker got loose. The barrel is a 22-250 sporter cut down to ~ 16.5", muzzle filed flat and bore chamfered with an RCBS "cricket". I got home after shooting and found the barrel loose. I've made over 100 barrel changes on the Striker, M10 and M12. I use synthetic motor oil on the barrel threads when changing barrels, and store barrels with this oil on and in the barrels. I never rush when changing barrels, won't allow anyone to talk to me then, and am very careful. I have no idea why this barrel loosened. I now have added a "barrel tight?" step to my every-5-shot gun/scope check.

joe b.

Heating/cooling cycles are notorious for loosening any threaded device unless it's under a lot of tension. Expansion when fired (albeit very little, there still is some) also contributes to this possibility.

Might be a good idea that when you torque the barrel nut you put a "witness mark" across the nut, extending a short amount onto action and barrel so you can just glance at it to see if it matches up on both ends. If not, nut/barrel is loose. A black sharpie for stainless finish and a Silver marking pen for a setup that is a darker finish. If you torqued it, put the line from barrel to action, and all lines up, your GTG.

Wet thread torque and dry are never the same. Maybe just didn't quite have enough vinegar that day?

Well for starters, stop wasting the motor oil on them - it's not needed and offers no benefit, and could ultimately be the cause of your problem. Many oils, especially synthetic oils, have additives designed to bond with the metal to make it slicker to reduce friction. Yet here you are using it in an instance that relies on that very friction to secure the barrel.

I bet it is the oil. There is no necessary purpose for using it on your assembled guns.

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Originally Posted by MrFurious

Well for starters, stop wasting the motor oil on them - it's not needed and offers no benefit, and could ultimately be the cause of your problem. Many oils, especially synthetic oils, have additives designed to bond with the metal to make it slicker to reduce friction.

I use CARQUEST full synthetic SAE 5W-20 to clean barrels with cast bullets, with jacketed at cast velocities, steel protector and all lubrication of all parts of all guns. Someday the quart will be gone.


Yet here you are using it in an instance that relies on that very friction to secure the barrel.

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No, repeat, no, friction does not secure the barrel. The barrel is secured by tightening the nut, which compresses the nut, the recoil lug and the action; and applies tension to the barrel threads. It is this combination of tension and compression that secures the barrel, and ALL nut/stud combinations.
joe b.

There are really only two reasons a fastener comes loose.

Lack of torque.

You are into the plastic range. In this case short of the nut going (its possible) the barrel threads can be stretched into plastic.

If you toque it good and it repeats, replace the nut.

I advocate use of a torque wrench. NSS gives what I feel is a good minimum figure of 50 ft lbs.

Barring that, then the nut wrench with a breaker bar with a bit of effort into it.

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

No, repeat, no, friction does not secure the barrel. The barrel is secured by tightening the nut, which compresses the nut, the recoil lug and the action; and applies tension to the barrel threads. It is this combination of tension and compression that secures the barrel, and ALL nut/stud combinations.
joe b.

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Tension and compression = friction. Without friction on the faces, the nut won't stay tight.

http://home.jtan.com/~joe/KIAT/kiat_1.htm

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Originally Posted by Deadshot2

Heating/cooling cycles are notorious for loosening any threaded device unless it's under a lot of tension. Expansion when fired (albeit very little, there still is some) also contributes to this possibility.

Might be a good idea that when you torque the barrel nut you put a "witness mark" across the nut, extending a short amount onto action and barrel so you can just glance at it to see if it matches up on both ends. If not, nut/barrel is loose. A black sharpie for stainless finish and a Silver marking pen for a setup that is a darker finish. If you torqued it, put the line from barrel to action, and all lines up, your GTG.

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this is exactly why I use a torque wrench and tighten close to Savage guidelines of 70-75ft pounds (I typically go 60ish). Many people said "oh that is way to much" and 30-55ft/lbs is enough. I cannot believe people say this. I think 50-60 is ok but for me I will never go below 60. There is a reason savage chose the number they did.

NSS lists 50 (max) for the Barrel Nut torque with their tool. They also have anti seize for a lubricant and that needs to be kept in mind.

Dry is one thing, lubricated is another and not a clue what good Savage uses and how it affects the equation.

At a guess 50 with lube is equal to 60-80 dry.

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Originally Posted by RC20

NSS lists 50 (max) for the Barrel Nut torque with their tool. They also have anti seize for a lubricant and that needs to be kept in mind.

Dry is one thing, lubricated is another and not a clue what good Savage uses and how it affects the equation.

At a guess 50 with lube is equal to 60-80 dry.

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savage supposedly uses anti-seize lube. Yeah but are they posting that due to the fact that their tool adds leverage into the equation? If you position your torque wrench at a 90 degree angle to the tool it should take out most of the added leverage. I still stand by what Savage uses. I think they probably go a little overboard probably because of their lawyers but still...if they say 70ft/lbs is safe then that is close to where I want to be. None of this 35-40ft/lbs some people are doing. this is not the first time I have heard of a switch barrel loosening up on these forums and id be willing to bet they were torqued to 35-45ft/lbs.

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Originally Posted by Bigeclipse

savage supposedly uses anti-seize lube.

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NO THEY DO NOT!!!!!

One ignorant individual on the internet who can't tell the difference between tumbling media residue and anti-seize makes that ridiculous claim and now I'm apparently doomed to an eternity of trying to set the record straight. After all, we all know that anti-seize has tiny little spherical balls in it that act as miniature ball bearings - right? SMH!


Not directed at you Bigeclipse, just tired of bad information like this being perpetuated when there's not an ounce of fact or truth to it. You're just an unknowing victim of it.

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

http://home.jtan.com/~joe/KIAT/kiat_1.htm

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Errr, what? What are you trying to say with that? I'm an engineer and I think you might have some terms confused. PM me if you want to go over things in a little more depth. Generally speaking nuts,bolts, and various fasteners of similar stature are held tight via friction from torque(compression/tension) between the two mating surfaces.

Typically only 10% to 15% of the overall torque is actually used to tighten the bolt, the rest is used to overcome friction in the threads and on the contact face that is being rotated (nut face or bolt head).

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Tension and compression = friction. Without friction on the faces, the nut won't stay tight.

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

http://home.jtan.com/~joe/KIAT/kiat_1.htm

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You can lead a horse to water...

I just torque my switchbarrel barrel nut to 20#. Haven't had any problem with barrels coming loose. Seems to me with a right hand twist every shot is tightening the barrel. Some switchbarrel shooters only hand tighten their barrels.

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Originally Posted by MrFurious

NO THEY DO NOT!!!!!

One ignorant individual on the internet who can't tell the difference between tumbling media residue and anti-seize makes that ridiculous claim and now I'm apparently doomed to an eternity of trying to set the record straight. After all, we all know that anti-seize has tiny little spherical balls in it that act as miniature ball bearings - right? SMH!


Not directed at you Bigeclipse, just tired of bad information like this being perpetuated when there's not an ounce of fact or truth to it. You're just an unknowing victim of it.

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actually yes they do

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Originally Posted by Bigeclipse

actually yes they do

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Actually - no they don't. Thanks for proving my point about ignorant individuals spreading bad information though.

1. I've toured the factory
2. I've built my own rifle in the factory
3. I'm in direct contract with people at all levels at Savage - engineers, customer service, quality control, sales & marketing, etc.
4. I've asked several of those folks this very question, and EVERY TIME the answer has been the same.


Do you see a tube or tub of anti-seize at this work station? Nope - because their wasn't any.

Attachment 3115

Attachment 3116

Attachment 3117

The gal in the photos above is one of the "swingers" at Savage, the name of the position of those who mate the barrels to the actions. The first photo shows the barrel clamped in a pneumatic vise where the nut is screwed on, then the action is screwed on, the headspace is set and the nut is torqued to spec. The second photo shows the barreled action in a cradle with a mic measuring runout on the barrel. The ram is used to tweak the fit of the action to the barrel to eliminate any runout. The last photo is Fred (sharpshooter) headspacing the barrel on the rifle he built while we were there in the same pneumatic vise that's shown in the first photo.

And this last photo is of me shooting the rifle I built that day in Savage's indoor R&D range.

Attachment 3118


Now tell us again how Savage uses anti-seize on their barrel threads...

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Originally Posted by MrFurious

Actually - no they don't. Thanks for proving my point about ignorant individuals spreading bad information though.

1. I've toured the factory
2. I've built my own rifle in the factory
3. I'm in direct contract with people at all levels at Savage - engineers, customer service, quality control, sales & marketing, etc.
4. I've asked several of those folks this very question, and EVERY TIME the answer has been the same.


Do you see a tube or tub of anti-seize at this work station? Nope - because their wasn't any.

Attachment 3115

Attachment 3116

Attachment 3117

The gal in the photos above is one of the "swingers" at Savage, the name of the position of those who mate the barrels to the actions. The first photo shows the barrel clamped in a pneumatic vise where the nut is screwed on, then the action is screwed on, the headspace is set and the nut is torqued to spec. The second photo shows the barreled action in a cradle with a mic measuring runout on the barrel. The ram is used to tweak the fit of the action to the barrel to eliminate any runout. The last photo is Fred (sharpshooter) headspacing the barrel on the rifle he built while we were there in the same pneumatic vise that's shown in the first photo.

And this last photo is of me shooting the rifle I built that day in Savage's indoor R&D range.

Attachment 3118


Now tell us again how Savage uses anti-seize on their barrel threads...

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That is interesting because the last 3 rifles I built ALL came with some sort of compound on the threads. 2 were brand new rifles and the other 2 still had their factory barrels so never been switched. What is this mysterious compound then?!?

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Originally Posted by MrFurious

Actually - no they don't. Thanks for proving my point about ignorant individuals spreading bad information though.

1. I've toured the factory
2. I've built my own rifle in the factory
3. I'm in direct contract with people at all levels at Savage - engineers, customer service, quality control, sales & marketing, etc.
4. I've asked several of those folks this very question, and EVERY TIME the answer has been the same.


Do you see a tube or tub of anti-seize at this work station? Nope - because their wasn't any.

Attachment 3115

Attachment 3116

Attachment 3117

The gal in the photos above is one of the "swingers" at Savage, the name of the position of those who mate the barrels to the actions. The first photo shows the barrel clamped in a pneumatic vise where the nut is screwed on, then the action is screwed on, the headspace is set and the nut is torqued to spec. The second photo shows the barreled action in a cradle with a mic measuring runout on the barrel. The ram is used to tweak the fit of the action to the barrel to eliminate any runout. The last photo is Fred (sharpshooter) headspacing the barrel on the rifle he built while we were there in the same pneumatic vise that's shown in the first photo.

And this last photo is of me shooting the rifle I built that day in Savage's indoor R&D range.

Attachment 3118


Now tell us again how Savage uses anti-seize on their barrel threads...

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also call them and ask what they recommend their barrels torqued WITH compound. The answer will be 70#s unless I just got a bogus representative.

While clearly the compound used at factory is not Anti Seize, there certainly is something on the threads.

I would not expect the factory to use a thread substance to enable them to be worked on, it seems to be more a lock tite type agent.

NSS is the one that recommends the anti seize. I like it because it lubes the threads, ego it goes on and screws out easier.

So far no loosening issues with that and the 50 ft lobs of torque.

Which leads me to believe if there is a problem its the nut thread interface that is giving. While it could be the nut, it might be a combination of nut that is at max allowance and the barrel threads at minimum.

There is a reason its getting loose. Its not lube, torque allowance is very wide (or works) There is no magic though the cause can be a bugger to pin down.

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Originally Posted by Bigeclipse

also call them and ask what they recommend their barrels torqued WITH compound. The answer will be 70#s unless I just got a bogus representative.

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If you have worked on equipment, when an mfg specs a lube (or any other substance) they are very specific as to what that lube is.

It may be anti size, it may be engine oil, it may (in the old days) been some stuff called peanut butter. But it will be specific.

The reason is each material on the threads has an affect on torque. So, you don't just want to know what the torque is with a generic compound, you need to know what is used with that torques spec.

When I was younger (much) my brother had a truck that the staring box kept loosening the bolts up on.

We could find nothing wrong.

It was not until some years latter I found that the suspect was that someone had put those bolts into the plastic range and were stretching.

In that case it was very subtle as there is a clear sign of plastic stretch on a bolt, but in this case it had to be barely there and they looked normal.

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Originally Posted by Bigeclipse

That is interesting because the last 3 rifles I built ALL came with some sort of compound on the threads. 2 were brand new rifles and the other 2 still had their factory barrels so never been switched. What is this mysterious compound then?!?

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It's exactly what I said it was in my first response - residue from the tumbling processes. The barreled actions are wet tumbled in a rotisserie-style vibratory tumbler that holds 42 barreled actions. The slurry of water and tiny grit that comes off the tumbling media created in this process works it's way under the barrel nut and into the threads. Those tiny little spheres you find lodged in the threads are grit from the media. When it dries it's very hard which is why some think it's some kind of thread locker.

The blue and orange machine is the rotisserie vibratory tumbler. The orange drum is mounted on springs.
Attachment 3119

This is the rotisserie cartridge that holds 42 barreled actions and rotates within the orange drum as it vibrates.
Attachment 3120

Here the cartridge is in the vibratory tumbler with the course media which provides a matte finish. A fine media (green cones) is used after this step for the Classic models with the high polish finish.
Attachment 3121

Close-up of the cartridge in the tumbler.
Attachment 3122

This is what the parts look like after tumbling. Note the slurry residue that's all over the inside surfaces, that's what is working it's way under the nut that you think is anti-seize.
Attachment 3123

The barreled actions are then dipped in a series of degreaser/cleaner vats, but since there is no agitation it can't flush the residue out from under the nut.
Attachment 3124

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Originally Posted by Bigeclipse

also call them and ask what they recommend their barrels torqued WITH compound. The answer will be 70#s unless I just got a bogus representative.

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Customer Service rep's are merely phone jockeys with little to no hands on experience or expanded knowledge on the products. Such rep's are given a list of FAQ's that customers often have with standardized answers that they give when someone asks them. Such is common practice for any customer service center.

Well egg on my face and highly embarrassed. I used to be a pretty good reader.

I glossed over and or missed the part about the residue plain and simple.

I apologize for doing so, that should not happen.

It may not make it better but I can at least make it clear outstanding information was presented and not read.

Dang, just bought a tube of anti seize and am going to replace the barrel on my 10FP, guess I don't need it. So just leave the threads dry?

Depending on the anti seize and the bbl material maybe shouldn't mix anyway... I used anti seize on mine and so far all is well with no issuess. I doubt as course as threads are that you should have a problem. If chrome moly I wouldn't worry, stainless is another story.

The barrel is 416 stainless, the anti seize is Loctite sold by brownells. It cost me $7, no big deal if I don't use it. Every thing I've read says to use some type of anti seize, but after reading this thread I'm not sure.

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Originally Posted by huntin1

The barrel is 416 stainless, the anti seize is Loctite sold by brownells. It cost me $7, no big deal if I don't use it. Every thing I've read says to use some type of anti seize, but after reading this thread I'm not sure.

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Anti-seize is a good idea for Stainless. Surprisingly enough the elements added to steel to make it "Stainless" also make it more prone to "galling". It doesn't take much to keep the threads from galling, just enough to coat the threads as they are screwed together. I just put a little on the first couple of threads on barrel or fastener and that is transferred to the internal threads and the rest of the external threads as screwed together. Another popular anti-seize/lube is Aeroshell 33. Again, a small amount.

As stated earlier, "wet" torque values are less than those for "dry". One manufacturer of anti-seize products recommends a reduction in torque of 25%.

http://www.antiseize.com/PDFs/torque_specifications.pdf

As far as friction holding the position of the barrel nut in place, if there is tension the film remaining between nut and action is thin enough to hold nut in place. The anti-seize is merely an "anti-weld" agent that prevents the asperities on both surfaces from welding together when moved (due to the high temps caused at the sharp contact points) with the resultant galling.

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

No, repeat, no, friction does not secure the barrel. The barrel is secured by tightening the nut, which compresses the nut, the recoil lug and the action; and applies tension to the barrel threads. It is this combination of tension and compression that secures the barrel, and ALL nut/stud combinations.
joe b.

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The recoil lug may be compressed, but as it floats over the barrel, doesn't matter to the cause. The nut, like all lock nuts, tries to pull apart the action and barrel threads. That fricion of pulling thread against thread, is what stops things from coming loose.

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Originally Posted by huntin1

The barrel is 416 stainless, the anti seize is Loctite sold by brownells. It cost me $7, no big deal if I don't use it. Every thing I've read says to use some type of anti seize, but after reading this thread I'm not sure.

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So long as it doesn't have copper in it you should be good to go. Copper anti-seize on stainless is a no! Nickel based anti-seize is what you want.

I use two rubber mallet whacks on the barrel nut wrench while I hold the action in my hand. not sure how much torque it is. I use anti seize and have only had a couple of barrels move when tightening or loosening a muzzle brake that was on tight.

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Originally Posted by RustyShackle

So long as it doesn't have copper in it you should be good to go. Copper anti-seize on stainless is a no! Nickel based anti-seize is what you want.

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Since this subject has been breached again I am curious. What issue are you afraid of when using a copper based anti seize? Galvanic corrosion? Please elaborate...

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Originally Posted by Blackthorn

Since this subject has been breached again I am curious. What issue are you afraid of when using a copper based anti seize? Galvanic corrosion? Please elaborate...

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From a product brochure put out by an anti-seize manufacturer:

First paragraph:
http://www.armitelabs.com/products/C...nti-Seize.html

Haven't heard of it ever happening on an SS Rifle barrel but on smaller fasteners I've seen some strange breaks.

I hate the copper (stuff is too kind) on general principles.

While not necessarily relevant to the Savage, we put it on shaft to hold sprockets on. Usually with a squeeze hub that the sprocket bolted to ( the hub and sprocket had tapered surfaces, so the bolting squeezed the hub to the shaft)

The stuff welded the hub onto the sprocket. If used with just a set screw bearing or sprocket, it welded them to the shaft.

Never used it for anything again, threw away what we had.

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Originally Posted by m12lrs

I just torque my switchbarrel barrel nut to 20#. Haven't had any problem with barrels coming loose. Seems to me with a right hand twist every shot is tightening the barrel. Some switchbarrel shooters only hand tighten their barrels.

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Not disagreeing that 20 can be effective nor you could hand tighten thought hat seems nebulous on several fronts.

This is a far more complex joint/interface than a bolt that simply tightens into the body of whatever its attached to.

You have a threaded barrel, that is not tensioned by the barrel shoulder itself but by a separate nut. That nut is free to move as its not part of the barrel.

Copper on stainless steel creates an inter-crystaline corrosion, which can make actual stainless steel parts crack and break. This is why the nuclear power plants/ petroleum refineries do not allow copper with any material which comes in contact with the stainless steel parts.

I hijacked most of that description with a simple google search as I didn't feel like writing a research paper on the topic. Basically though it's similar to galvanic corrosion from the electron potential in the dissimilar metals.

I understand metallurgy and what happens when two dissimilar metals are put together. Galvanic action fortunately requires three elements to come together. The most important is a constant level of exposure to water or a corrosive environment which no rifle of mine are exposed to at any real length of time. Otherwise the metals will breakdown at a normal rate which should outlive me.

I also understand the issues that arise from inter-crystallization corrosion that is caused with dissimilar metals under continuous heat (temps of 400-850 degrees Celsius) or during the process of welding. If my rifle were to reach the temperatures over the sustained time frame required to cause inter-crystallization my wood stocks would burst into flames or at the very least my epoxy bedding would melt..

I was curious and got my answer. Thank you for the response.

Yes, fortunately rifles, in general terms, are not subjected to great deals of moisture. However undoubtedly there is some that will travel under the bbl nut where it can become a host for galvanic action. Also copper on various steels and under various conditions has shown to induce stress cracking/embrittlement. There are a handful of mechanisms by which this occurs.
The entire potential for for any of this can be avoided using nickel based antiseize, so I guess you can use whatever you like, but it's cheap insurance.

and I guess I should add that I now just use a dab of white lithium grease for assembly. Just enough to prevent galling.

Better cheap insurance than no insurance. I do agree that nickel would be the best choice when it comes to stainless. I have used copper, black moly, and nickel based anti-seizes when mounting barrels. I cannot say that any work better than another but I can say I have never had a barrel come loose nor removed requiring excessive force.

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Originally Posted by RustyShackle

Errr, what? What are you trying to say with that? I'm an engineer and I think you might have some terms confused. PM me if you want to go over things in a little more depth. Generally speaking nuts,bolts, and various fasteners of similar stature are held tight via friction from torque(compression/tension) between the two mating surfaces.

Typically only 10% to 15% of the overall torque is actually used to tighten the bolt, the rest is used to overcome friction in the threads and on the contact face that is being rotated (nut face or bolt head).

Cheers!

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This is an incorrect ststement. I too am an engineer and I also manage a fastener testing Lab. You are correct that most of the torque applied is wasted overcoming the friction forces. The misconception is that friction prevents the joint from loosening. Actually the stretching of the components ( traditionally the bolt but in our case the threads in the nut) act as a spring and keep the joint closed. You could say that the sping applies s normal force to the surfaces and therefore friction is still reasponcible for keeping the joint closed

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But if you increase the coefficient of friction you generally only increase the torque required to achieve the same clamp load. Two joint with different coefficient of friction and equal clamp load will function more or less the same assuming traditional application. In the case of the barrel nut, I would suspect the nut has seen too many cycles and it jumps threads during torqueing or shooting. To prevent the barrel nut from coming loose we need enough clamp load to compress the threads more than the chamber pressure tries to stretch the barrel, if this is true then summing our forces always yields clamp load.

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Originally Posted by Cmgoff

This is an incorrect ststement. I too am an engineer and I also manage a fastener testing Lab. You are correct that most of the torque applied is wasted overcoming the friction forces. The misconception is that friction prevents the joint from loosening. Actually the stretching of the components ( traditionally the bolt but in our case the threads in the nut) act as a spring and keep the joint closed. You could say that the sping applies s normal force to the surfaces and therefore friction is still reasponcible for keeping the joint closed

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No, that is not an incorrect statement. Friction does prevent the joint from loosening, which is accomplished via the compression/tension that is applied from the fastener being tightened. The important part to remember here is that the friction is made possible by the compressive load from the barrel nut/receiver face, applied by the tension from the barrel. Otherwise a roller bearing between the mating surfaces should not matter! And if there were roller bearings between the thread mating surfaces and the union it would freely spin, even under relatively high torque values.

Its really no different in terms of physics than loading weight onto a sled and the more the load increases the larger the force needed to overcome the friction required to make it move. The friction coefficient in this example and the barrel example remain the same. So the torque value only changes with the applied normal force

Another way to think of this, is, with standard helical threads on a bolt(barrel), is that in reality they are a ramp, or inclined plane. The nut, or in reality the threads of the nut sit on this inclined plane. The only thing that holds the nut from sliding down the plane is the friction between the two. Applying force along the axis of the bolt increases the total force required to overcome this friction. Depending on the modulus of elasticity of the material and the yield strength determines how much force can be applied before failure from plastic deformation occcurs and the compressive/tension force holding the two surfaces is lost.

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Originally Posted by Blackthorn

Better cheap insurance than no insurance. I do agree that nickel would be the best choice when it comes to stainless. I have used copper, black moly, and nickel based anti-seizes when mounting barrels. I cannot say that any work better than another but I can say I have never had a barrel come loose nor removed requiring excessive force.

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Frankly, there is a difference between cheap and wrong.

If you have a heart condition and get insurance for a brain tumor and croak, that does the survivor no good.

Mr. Furious has pointed out that the factory uses nothing (other then left over residue from tumbling the barrel and that is an accident of the process)

Maybe the best example of wrong but perceived as insurance was (still are?) those magical claims of being able to run you engine without oil.

Actually it works and you can (test by the USAA in WWII for oviousl reason)

The problem?

Its a chlorine based, said chlorine base lube attacks lead bearings like there is no tomorrow.

So, if you loose your oil before the bearings are destroyed, it will save you.

Unfortunately its a pretty narrow window and your engine is most likely going to quit on the other side of the German border.

I had some experience with TFE? back in the day. The good news was the engine I chose to put it in had lots of clearance and did not cause any problems.

The bad news was that people with more intricate engines (Japanese, European ) has passages clog up and oil starvation to important parts.

I think we need to step back and gain some perspective. I would not run my BMW without the recommended oil or lubricants. My rifles on the other hand are another matter. I agree with Mr Furious in regards to Savage not using any type of anti seize. I shot with a number of Savage employees and engineers (one of the main reasons I shoot Savage rifles) at the Westfield Sportsman's Club while living in Springfield, MA. I have had this discussion with them and they do not apply anything during assembly. From a manufacturers stand point applying what they must figure an unnecessary compound to the assembly process would affect the bottom line and the bottom line is king.
That being said I am a competitive shooter and a brick and mortar graduated gunsmith. I tend to roll my barrels more than most. I have been through 3 barrels on my first F-Class rifle and have 1500 on my second F-Class in two seasons. I use copper on my AR builds and abuse them regularly. I have used various different anti seizes on barrel changes and have not had any problems. Until I see something that would cause me concern I will continue using something than nothing.

Well I see plumbers use Teflon tape, dope and have even seen Permatex used on flare fittings.

It doesn't hurt for the most part, it can mess up the seal as well.

My only reasons to use what I do is I prefer a smoother joint, and the torques setting is predicated on a lubed joint.

Savage clearly has it figured out its not needed for correct and lasting assembly.