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This is my first long range precision rifle. I've been a re loader for around 5 years now, but this is a new game. I have one question that I hope the members will be able to answer. I am loading the brass for this rifle only, so knowing this... Full length or neck size the brass to be loaded? Thank you for your comments.
All depends on who you ask
I know, that's what I'm running into. One says it only needs neck sized and the other says FL for consistency.
That debate will go on forever
I have done it all. Neck size with a bushing, neck size with a collet die and use a body die and full length resizing. All methods can create competition grade ammo. I do recommend dies made by forster or redding for.commercial dies.
What I have found is I don't like donuts and if you are going to have to full length resize every 3 to 5.firings anyway why bother with neck sizing.
With a commercial full length resizing die die setup is very important. I use a Hornady headspace gauge to measure the headspace of my fired brass. Then I set the die up for a 1 to 2 thousands shoulder bump. Plenty of utube videos on how to do this.
For the ultimate full length sizing die you need a custom die made from your fired brass. Neil Jones and John Whidden are good sources.
End the debate simply... Fire 4 rounds sized with any applicable die and send the 4 (fired and not resized) cases to a reputable die builder such as John Whidden or RCBS and have them machine you a die based on your case dimensions. Problem solved. Keep in mind that the die will be specifically tailored for that particular chamber (and no other) but you state that 'for this rifle only', exactly what I do.
Every precision shooter I own has it's own die. Expensive? absolutely. The end result is well worth the initial expense.
I neck size with a lee collet 3 times then anneal and bump shoulder back with body die and repeat.
Me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelhead
Not trying to start an argument but I've found Lee dies to be on the low end of quality. Having said that I do use them for straightwall pistol brass sizing but that is all I used them for. I absolutely despise the Lee lock rings. Those go in the wastebasket right away. I replace them all with Hornady cross lock rings. In fact, every die I own (Whidden included) gets Hornady rings....Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelhead
I do like and use Lee Collet Crimp dies. The rest are marginal in my opinion. You get what you pay for in any product, die sets included.
Never used the Lee Dipper. I guess you could use it for a cocaine scoop but in as much as I don't do drugs, it just sits in the die box, taking up room....lol
Lee die sets ate low end, beginner dies for hand loaders starting out. Much more precise and of course more expensive reloading dies out there in cyberland.
Thank you for your comments, I will be looking into a custom set of dies.
Make sure the fired.brass you send in has been fired at least.3 times and don't resize the last time. You want.to be sure the brass is fully fire formed to your chamber. One firing does not.always do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kd8cmn
I am sure whoever you get the custom dies from will give you the procedure.they want you to follow.
Please explain/define (long range precision). Because frankly, I didn't know (precision) was possible at long range.Quote:
Originally Posted by kd8cmn
So if we shoot an 8" 1000 yd group today, and tomorrow a 20" group, would better dies help the cause?
Fact is any off the shelf die would be capable of loading ammo better than the vast majority of shooters can shoot at long range.
And, any rifle/shooter combination capable of 1" 100 yd groups from a bench, will also be capable of hitting gallon size milk jugs at 1000 yds.
Wind of coarse can vary results, as it does regardless of how the ammo was loaded. But that's the shooting part, not the loading part.
I guess the question becomes is that precision? Or precision enough? Maybe not, at least for some, but it would put a smile on most faces.
If you cant get to the point of doing that, be looking for reasons other than just the dies you load with.
Id personaly recommend just using standard dies and then go shoot. You might just find they are precision enough.
Understand the concept of John Whidden dies and dies made from the same reamer the chamber was done with. My BIL does all that and anything else you can imagine.
But will someone please explain to Me why My cases fire formed in My chamber and neck sized with a LEE Collet Die are less precise than than full length sizing. MY PRECISION DIE is MY RIFLES CHAMBER :-).
^^^
This! And almost 0 runout to boot.
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. Yeah, Lee dies are inexpensive, and yeah, the lock rings suck rocks and need to be replaced. No argument there at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by SidecarFlip
But right now, I'm loading for six Savage rifles in 7mm-08 (mine, my wife's, a spare, and one each for the three granddaughters, aka The Senior Minions) and I'm loading them with Lee dies mounted on a Dillon RL-550B, which anyone will tell you is not for precision work. Every one of those rifles will deliver sub-MOA groups out to 200 yards with disgusting regularity. To date, I've probably loaded 3000 rounds with these dies over the last four years or so. No issues, no problems, and no complaints. Now, I don't know if the accuracy is because of the rifles, the exquisite care taken in assembling the loads, the skill of the shooters (three of them teenage girls), divine intervention, or plain old luck, but I'll take it!
Granted, most of our non-paper targets are deer and hogs, inside of 250 yards, and that probably doesn't qualify as "precision" work. But we're all pretty happy with the results, nonetheless.
Hehe, I have "tuned" some Lee dies to deliver the goods in F TR. I have since moved on but It was because I thought I needed to. Waste of money.
"Precision" means different things to different people.
That is an all encompassing statement if there ever was one...Quote:
Originally Posted by 243LPR
As I have said earlier all these methods can produce competition level ammoQuote:
Originally Posted by FW Conch
I too used the Lee collet neck sizer. I like it better than a bushing die because it.doesn't produce donuts.
Custom dies are not.made with the chamber reamer used on the rifle. The fired brass is measured and the.die.body is.machined from those measurements. Using the chamber reamer would.make.the die too tight. The brass would not chamber.
I thought having to measure groups with calipers was precision, measuring with a carpenters tape not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by 243LPR
But to put that in perspective, think of this. The first (recognized) record group shot at the oldest on earth 1000 yd benchrest club was about 7 3/4" for the 10 shots about 45 years ago.
The record group today is about 5" smaller than that one.
So its taken thousands of good shooters shooting hundreds of thousands of record rounds with the best possible equiptment to accomplish that.
And the group can still be measured with a carpenters tape in inches and fractions of inches.
The idea of a custom die using the same reamer that cut the chamber originated a long time before John Widden. Many of those shooters used them and still do.
Have you ever sat and watched a cat chase it's own tail? lol
Neck size once you have fire-formed the brass to your chamber. Fire and repeat. Depending on brass, anneal as needed. As in posts #6 and #7.
Lol. Yep. Never knew if the cat was trying to catch up or catch on.:tea:Quote:
Have you ever sat and watched a cat chase it's own tail?
I do not think you need custom dies. The answer I like is to size every case full-length and partial neck-size. I use the Redding body/shoulder bump die for those parts of the case. Then size the entire neck with a Redding bushing die that is too large to hold a bullet, but large enough to provide plenty of clearance for the neck in the chamber of the rifle. Then size the 0.15" at the case neck using a smaller bushing which holds the bullet tight enough but not too tight. That should be the best of both worlds. Also, there is less wear on the cases. I only do this for single-loaded rounds. Maybe the bullet would unseat during firing if bullets only have light pressure for 0.15" holding them in the case. I've never experimented to see if that happens, so I don't know. Almost everything I have shoots under 0.5" for 5 shots at 100 yards, and I have shot a 4-shot group of 0.022" at 100 yards using this method, and using random Lake City milsurp .308 Win (7.62x51) cases.
Whatever works for you!
Your like me. I'm ok with 500-600 Max. Because I'm a Hunter and I don't like to shoot over 300 truth be told. But those guys are on a concrete bench shooting 1,000 yards at paper targets and have 15 pound rifles with 3,000$ scopes . Its a different ball game. I use Lee dies for a few rifles I even have a Lee press And I love it. But I'm good shooting 1" at 200. I don't need 1/4" at 200 or to make 1,000 yard shots. If I did I would buy the best also. I bow hunt mostly for deer unless I'm filling the meat locker and I shoot a rifle. But I'm like that with my archery gear. Heck my bow cost as much as a good used Harley. Do I need it no I killed lots of deer with a 150$ bear ,But I like knowing if I miss its completely my fault. When your in a sport where 1" at a half of mile means winner or second best. It makes a difference. Those guys could still probably shoot just as well useing Lee dies but it's the piece of mind knowing you left nothing to a what if?Quote:
Originally Posted by First Shirt
I'm a big fan of the Lee collet die.
That, a body die and a good bullet seater(latter two from Forster or Redding) and you can make some really good ammo at a decent price.
I do want tiny 200 yard groups and do a lot of shooting at 1000 and beyond.
If you can shoot 1" at 200 yds, you would be a competitor at the 1000 yd matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by swamphonkey
Id suggest you go do it. As for the scope, John Voniada held the world record for almost 14 years
shooting a gun he built himself on a Rem 721 action, with a plain old 24x Leupold sitting on it.
Lots of cats chased their tails during that period trying to beat that record.
And finally the lord smiled on one of them.
I do it just about every day. I shoot at least 6 rounds out of one of my rifles. Yesterday I shot two 3-shot groups at 200 about 3/4" out of my stock 7mm08 T-C venture. I have way too much going on to shoot competition. I have 800 acres to tend. Motor scooters Harleys that need rode. A old lady that needs rode once a while. And during hunting season I hunt 6 days a week. Half with clients. My wife would leave me if I started something else.
Well you could put a scabbard on the Harley for the T C, and the old lady could ride along also. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by swamphonkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by kd8cmn
I've shot the 243win in competition for the last 3 barrels I've burned out. 90% of that I neck sized only after fire forming. It was consistent and shot well using Hornady brass. What I started to notice after about 5-6 firings was case bulge and an occasional stiff to chamber case. On the first 2 barrels I just threw the brass out and got new brass. On the most recent barrel I decided to FL Size it and move forward. What I got was stiff bolt lift throughout an entire match that dropped me from the usual Top 5 placing to the lower middle of the pack. On my latest barrel I switched over to the 6 Creedmoor and will be FL sizing and bumping the shoulder after each firing. This is the way dang near all of the top shooters run their rigs from the people I've spoken with. I won't have further feed back until I get through the first firing on the 300 pieces of brass I bought for this barrel, but so far using the Whidden dies I've had very good results even with the brand new brass.