I just cant decide, axix or model 11 fcns....

I have been mulling this for months now...... I have come to a decision so many times its comical, but still cant decide.....
Basically, I am buying a rife for deer hunting this year, but would also like to dabble in long range target shooting....
My must haves are:
.308 caliber
Detachable box mag
accurate out of the box
See, not such a long list huh?
So I was all set to get the edge/axis, when I started thinking. I am one of those people who believe a great trigger can make a good shooter into a great shooter, so the accutrigger definitely appeals to me.... I know I can get an aftermarket trigger for the edge for around $100 and turn it from a good gun into a great gun, so I decide on the axis, but that turns a nearly $300 gun into a nearly $400 gun, nearly halfing the gap between the axis and 11 fcns.... Plus the FCNS has the accustock in addition to the acutrigger, so I would not have to get a bedding kit and spend my time doing that.... So I decide on the 11 FCNS...
Then I come here and read about sub-MOA shooters out of the box and.... well....
I just cant decide!
Any help?

I modified my own trigger on my Edge for about $0.42. It helped a lot with the pull, but it didn't shrink my groups up much. I'm still hovering at just under .5 MOA.

If you want to hunt and dabble with long range, get the Edge/Axis.

If you want to shoot long range and dabble in hunting, get the 11 FCNS.

Or just by both ;D

I own both plus a WW model 16 in 3 different calibers, and they all shoot great. Very good advice from Herman. For hunting I like the light weight of the A/E. It shoots very good groups, but I opted for the Rifle Basix trigger and haven't been sorry for the addition. Some days I shoot better with the model 11 or 16, but some days the A/E shoots better for me. Buy any of them and you won't be sorry, but I really like the A/E for hunting, and I like the Rifle Basix trigger better than the accutriggers in the other two.

Nevermind. Im an idiot... sorry... lol. found you a 11 FCNS .308 NIB for $400 but auction was closed.

Well thanks guys. Ill admit I wrote this post with my mind already made up to get th 11 fcns... but after reading your replies, I think I am back to the axis, LOL.....

I guess it comes down to I get get the axis and a nice scope for less than just the model 11.... I will just have to see what I can do about the trigger, and maybe down the road get the rifle basix one if I cant get it to my liking...


Thanks!!

I know if it was me, I would run away from the Axis.
It is like compairing a Zippo to a Bic lighter. (or a Parker pen to a Bic pen.) One is well built, last a lifetime, and other is designed to be thrown away when your done using it.

You may be right, but I've already put over 2,000 rds. through my Edge 223, which is more than many people will put through a hunting rifle in a lifetime. It gets better all the time. Since I have the 11 and a 16, I can't deny they are better made rifles than the A/E, but at least for me they don't shoot any better. All are consistently sub .5 moa rifles, but I've shot a good number of groups in the teens with the Edge just like I have with the others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

I know if it was me, I would run away from the Axis.
It is like compairing a Zippo to a Bic lighter. (or a Parker pen to a Bic pen.) One is well built, last a lifetime, and other is designed to be thrown away when your done using it.

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What didn't you like about he Edge/Axis you shot?

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Originally Posted by Herman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

I know if it was me, I would run away from the Axis.
It is like compairing a Zippo to a Bic lighter. (or a Parker pen to a Bic pen.) One is well built, last a lifetime, and other is designed to be thrown away when your done using it.

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What didn't you like about he Edge/Axis you shot?

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It is cheaply built. The trigger is the biggest concern I have, with its design there is no way to place the gun in time, or keep it in time, because it floats.
I am also not fond of the harsh bolt lift. I am also concerned about the way the recoil lug is done, IMO it just doesn't have enough contact with the action. My last complaint is the stock, it is just cheap feeling and looking.

I would say that the Axis is a gun for someone that wants something that they can use, they don't give a care about ,and will throw away when they are done, like a Bic lighter. (The term for this use to be called a "Saturday Night Special.") Yes it works and provides a function, but it is in no way a comparable gun to anything else Savage makes.

Sounds to me like the Edge/Axis is a better gun. The whole purpose of all the items you listed, and just about everything people do to their guns is to get better accuracy. If the Edge/Axis can get just as good accuracy as other out of the box guns without all the bells and whistles and a lower cost, then it's a better gun.

I also find it hard to believe that Savage made the Edge/Axis with the intent of is being a disposable gun.

Also, the original wasn't to compare the two to each other, it was to ask which one would be better for it's intended purpose. You can have the best long range gun in the world and it would be the worst gun for dove hunting comparing in to any shotgun.

The only thing the Edge/Axis can't seem to do is impress the gun snobs. Reviews owners and it's current track record are all excellent. Naysayers can throw their opinions around all they want, but the Edge/Axis it worthy of any gun safe.

in a million years the edge is no way near the quality of the 11fcns! that anyone would even say with a straight face get the axis amazes me. look at both guns in person if you cannot see feel the diff well then you might be a redneck!

accutrigger vs a horrible trigger
accustock vs Tupperware with sub par lug/bedding
magazines- fcns metal mechanism, edge has a plastic release piece that there is no way will last as long as the metal.
list just goes on

savage edge was made as a verry cheap entry level gun that would still shoot well, they cut many corners to get the price point down.

Surely would be interesting to have the figures on how many A/E's have been sold during the past year compared to 11 fcns. Must be lots of rednecks. 8)

they sale more simply by price point, not hard to figure out. Remington sales a ton of 770 also and they are pure junk. double you gotta be smarter than that come on. can you say that the edge is a better gun than the 11fcns? lets get real here the edge is not even in the class of the 11 not even close. maybe you haven't seen both models cause if you have you wouldn't be talk en like that!

ps i are a redneck so i can make those statements

I know around here the Axis runs $273/ Stevens M200s $315 and Savage M10/110 with accutriggers/scope/sling for $397 at wallys world and for the $124 difference I would go with the Savage packaged deal guns & you would be ahead by a mile.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rez187

in a million years the edge is no way near the quality of the 11fcns!

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Keep in mind the intended purpose the gun will be used stated earlier in this post. Lets take cars for example, Bentley vs. Honda. No way is a Honda a better car when compared side by side, but look which one fits better into what the general public needs. For the average person, the Honda is better for them. It fits the purpose of an every day commuter better. Therefore it is a better choice for the intended purpose.

So....If someone wants to hunt and dabble with long range, the Edge/Axis is better suited for that purpose. If you want to shoot long range and dabble in hunting, the 11 FCNS is better suited for that purpose.


When taking the original question in this post the accutrigger, accustock with good bedding, etc. are just bells and whistles which in the end won't make that much improvement for the intended purpose.

Well, thanks for all the advice guys, I got my gun. I ended up gettin an edge (guess it must have been old stock) .
I got one of the packages. Edge in .308, Camo stock with scope, plus 80 rounds of ammo for under $450 sounds pretty good to me!
The 11fcns with no scope or ammo would have been $100 more so the choice for me came down not to price, but value. After reading lots and lots of reviews and threads on it, It came down to this, I could spend $600-$700 (with scope) get the 11fcns with its fancy trigger and stock and shoot sub moa groups, or I could spend $450 on the edge, scope, and 80 rounds of .308 ammo (with reloadable brass cases) and get the same sub MOA groups..... At this time in my life, I just dont see spending $300+ to shrink my groups from .5-1" down to .5-.75", ya know?
I really do like the accutrugger, but unless you shoot the guns back to back, you arent going to notice the difference. Ive used "horrible" triggers, and one on the edge/axis is FAR from being horrible. Other than being heavier than a custom trigger (duh) Its actualy pretty good IMO for a stock trigger. I dont know if I just got lucky, but mine has no take up and breaks like glass, WAY better than many triggers I have used in the past....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dacaur

It came down to this, I could spend $600-$700 (with scope) get the 11fcns with its fancy trigger and stock and shoot sub moa groups, or I could spend $450 on the edge, scope, and 80 rounds of .308 ammo (with reloadable brass cases) and get the same sub MOA groups.....

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Bingo!

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Originally Posted by dacaur

I just dont see spending $300+ to shrink my groups from .5-1" down to .5-.75", ya know?

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If you reload you can .75-.5 groups fairly easy with the Edge.

Congrats on getting a great gun. You'll like it. Let us know how it shoots when you take it out.

Congratulations!

To res187. I never said the A/E was a better rifle than the 11 or 16 which I own. I did say that it shoots just as good groups most days and some days better than either the 11 or 16. I do have the Rifle Basix trigger and maybe I got lucky accuracy wise with this "cheap rifle" in 223. It also shoots everything from 50's to 75's very well.

I like mine, especially as a truck gun which is what I bought it for. It has done everything I hoped it might do. That's my bottom line.

I had been researching a value .308 for awhile now and this thread helped me decide on an AXIS .308, picked it up this morning. I will use it primarily as a deer gun and will 'dabble' with long range poking holes in paper. Great forum, great discussions. I will not be doing any upgrades with the exception of the trigger job I also learned about in this forum so the AXIS seemed like the best bang for the buck for me. Thanks to everyone for sharing their insight this topic.

With the accuracy and affordability of the Axis/Edge, I can see it being a stepping stone into long range shooting for many people. Once I saw how well I could shoot at 200 yards, I now want to push it further and would love to build a custom long range gun if I had the time and money.

For me the choice is easy. I am a lefty and the Axis and Stevens do not come left handed, so I am stuck with the higher priced Savage 11. I called Savage shortly after the Stevens hit the market and asked if a left hand model would be released. Answer: no.

I am a big fan of the Academy Stevens for under $200. Add a 3-screw trigger from Northland and you have a bargain tack driver.

A while back I was asking myself the same thing=Axis,Stevens or Savage?
I was looking for a lite/cheap truck gun that could be used for deer/goats so the choice was easy=25-06 Axis. Workt the trigger a little to get it not god awfull, throw it in the truck with a little load work it was easily Minute Of Deer to 400 yards.
If I liked the accutrigger(wich I dont) the Savage would be a good choice.
If I could use the 223 for deer I would have gotten a Stevens just in case I wanted to improve it to match my needs a little better.
Sometimes cheap works and other times you will end up spending more being cheap. If you need a great trigger the $100 you spend on a replacement trigger for the Axis might be better spent on a better factory gun??

the accustock and accutrigger the recoil lug the metal mag release all add up to an easy decision the 11 is by far the better choice. is there better triggers and better bedded stocks yes but for the money the savage accutrigger and accustock represent a great deal!

if you live anywhere it get cold tell me how long you think an axis/edge magazine release is going to last? that plastic is not gonna last long as it flrxes and bends in cold weather. can you say design flaw?

Well, I shot it, and I have to say, I think the gun can shoot better than me so far.... I coat wadded up on top of a bag makes a poor shooting rest, apparently.... ::)

First 3 shots.... first shot missed the paper (at 100 yards) because the shot surprised me... :o I had the safety on and tried to pull the trigger, when it got to the point i was thinking "wait, the trigger isnt THAT heavy" I remembered the safety, took it off, looked back through the scope, got on target and started pulling the trigger again, but since I had just been pulling really hard, it went off WAY before I was ready.... ;D Two and three were about 4 inches apart. I cleaned the gun then, and again after each 4 rounds. Not a 100% cleaning, but about 80-85%....

No groups to speak of until the last mag (rounds 12-15), which shot 2 within an inch, and the other two within an inch, both groups about 3 inches apart...

Again, I think it was just the lousy rest, but I did notice the stock was touching the bbl. I had seen it before but being excited about a new gun, didn't really think about it, but the bbl is noticeably closer to the right side of the bbl channel than the left, and is touching along the last few inches of stock . Today I took it apart and sanded the stock so its got some clearance, will try to find a better rest and shoot again....

Need to decide if i want a bipod or just find better rests when I shoot...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dacaur

....took it off, looked back through the scope, got on target and started pulling the trigger again, but since I had just been pulling really hard, it went off WAY before I was ready.... ;D

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I had a similar thing happen while I was deer hunting. I was using my dad's gun. I have the same gun, just in a different caliber, so I didn't shoot it before hand. Deer came out, I removed the safety, touched the trigger and BOOM! Total miss. Managed to get the deer on a follow-up shot. Later he tells me, oh yea, the trigger has been worked. It was way lighter than my gun.

When I shoot at the range I have a rest under the forearm and the butt of the stock. Get a good rest and a bean bag rest for the butt and that will help improve. The more I remove "me" from the shooting, the tighter the groups.

Also, shoot some more. My groups really tightened up after 70-100 rounds. Try different ammunition as well. I can't get under 3" groups with some ammunition. You'll get best groups if you reload, but can get excellent groups with factory ammo once you find what your gun likes.

I also shoot worse...or at least have in the past..... with larger calibers. I have a flinch and honed my skills with a .22LR so I didn't have to worry about recoil and could just focus on the basics.

if i owned a savage that shot 3-4 inches i would consider it a "lemon" from savage. savages shoot much better than that unless somethings wrong (shooter).


i think they called it edge because its on the edge of being Remington quality (poor)!

Well, sent rounds 17-36 down the bbl today.... still no groups to speak of.... I had a slightly better rest today, but I think I just need to get a sandbag... I would get a two within an inch, then two in random spots.....

I really have to say, I hate the trigger.... It breaks clean but its too darn heavy.... I think I'm going to get a light spring and see how that is, Ive read in a couple places that does the trick... if I could get it down below 4# I think I could do better....

We will see....

It takes some practice and honing of skills to be a consistent sub moa shooter, and lighter rifles that are in larger calibers are harder to shoot because of the flinch factor. It will all come together for you I'm sure. My A/E didn't really start printing tight until I got above 100 rds down the tube. It would shoot sub moa, but not sub .5 until I shot it a good bit. Both the 223 and 308 will normally shoot many thousands of rds. before wearing out a barrel, and the more you use it the better you'll become. Lightening the trigger will make a tremendous difference.

I just bought an axis/edge in. 223 and am very happy with it. I wouldnt consider it the edge of Remington quality as posted earlier. It probably will not set in the gun cabinet with my other 4 Savages because it will be in my truck. Topped it with a Nikon 6-18x40 Buckmaster i had in the safe and after about 20-30 rounds got it to group .65 at a 100 yds with Hornady 55gr v-max and 22.5 gr of H335. I own 2 model 11, 1 116, and a 110. Is it as nicely built as any of my other Savages? No. Does it perform on par with them? Yes, its a Savage. My. 02 worth.

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Originally Posted by bigtoe

...group .65 at a 100 yds with Hornady 55gr v-max and 22.5 gr of H335.

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I'm using 25 gr of H335 under 55gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and I'm getting just under .5 (7/16" to be exact).

I have some 55 gr Nosler Ballistic tips but havent tried them yet. Might be time to load up a batch. I did want to ask rez187 if he had ever shot the axis/edge as to why he thinks they are Remington quality. A 3" to 4" group does not indicate the gun is a lemon or that the shooter is at fault. Any number of variables could cause the gun to group that way. My 110 .270 hates factory Federal loads. Group was 3.5" to 5". Remington CorLokt shrunk it to a little over 1" group. Handloads made it a tack driver. My 116 30-06 loves factory Federal loads and Remington CorLokts but hates Winchester ballistic tips. Every gun is different. There are to many variables to check to just say the gun is a lemon or the shooter is at fault. Especially when the gun is not in your hands.

yea my problem could definitely be the ammo too, since I have only tried one type yet... saving my brass because I'm going to start hand loading this summer... Next time I go out Ill pick up a box of something different to try... It would be too bad if it was the ammo, I can get this for $12.99/box..... Remington in a green and white box.... I bought a bunch figuring even if its no good, I still have 80 brass cases to reload later... I wanted to go back and buy a bunch more next week, but now I might wait to see if my problem is the ammo or me, I'm going to have a couple other people shoot it next Sunday, one ex-army and one current army.... and I will be bringing a couple sand bags.... cant afford a nice rest, and dont want to get used to using one anyway since I wont have it out hunting....

This is what I use for a front rest - http://www.cabelas.com/product/MTM-F...oducts&Ntt=mtm

And then one of these (the rear one) for the butt - http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Shooting-Accessories/Benches-Rests|/pc/104792580/c/104769180/sc/104212080/Cabelas-Un-Filled-Shooting-Bags/733565.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshoot ing-shooting-accessories-benches-rests%2F_%2FN-1100226%2FNs-MIN_SALE_PRICE%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253BMMcat104792580%25 3Bcat104769180%26WTz_stype%3DGNU

Won't break the bank and makes for a solid enough rest. And buy up and shoot the cheap ammo. That's how I get my brass.

Dacaur, the Remington ammo your talking about in the green and white box is probably the UMC ammo. Herman is right on to buy the ammo and get your brass. Wally world used to carry a little gun vice that would fit your needs but aint nothing wrong with sand bags. Really you neex to try several different brands like you said and also a couple of different weights. Some guns like light bullets some like heavy. I would also check your scope and mount to make sure everything is good and tight. A loose mount gave me fits for weeks. I was about to sell the gun when I decided to try a differnt scope and found the mount was loose. Groups tightened up immediately and humbled me at the same time. Getting your buddies to shoot the gun is a great idea. Keep us up to date on your progress.

im lucky enough to have worked part time in a large gun shop and as such was able to shoot just about every gun we sold including many cooper models (i actually got to meet dan cooper) i agree there are tons of variables i own 6 savages and i just think savage did a poor job on the axis/edge. i am still a savage fan just dont think as this post started as whats better the axis/edge or 11fcns in my mind they are sooo far apart in quality that its obserd.

Rez187, I agree that the quality of the axis/edge is not near that of an 11fcns. I think the OP was not asking about which one was better quality but asking which one would better suite his needs with the list he gave. My reason for getting the axis/edge was to have a gun that I wouldnt mind getting scratches when its in my truck beating around the farm. I dont want to scratch up or tear up my. 22-250 while going through rutts and mudholes on back roads. I think these guns were made so fancy rednecks wouldnt mess up there favorite rifle. I do consider myself a fancy redneck by the way. LOL

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Originally Posted by rez187

if you live anywhere it get cold tell me how long you think an axis/edge magazine release is going to last? that plastic is not gonna last long as it flrxes and bends in cold weather. can you say design flaw?

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Had my Edge out in -22F weather while coyote calling and it held up just fine! Sounds like you have a thing against the Edge/Axis rifles for some reason?? Could it be because the $300 gun shoots just as good as your $600+ gun??

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Originally Posted by dmpowder

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rez187

if you live anywhere it get cold tell me how long you think an axis/edge magazine release is going to last? that plastic is not gonna last long as it flrxes and bends in cold weather. can you say design flaw?

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Had my Edge out in -22F weather while coyote calling and it held up just fine! Sounds like you have a thing against the Edge/Axis rifles for some reason?? Could it be because the $300 gun shoots just as good as your $600+ gun??

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Does it shoot as good? Most likely. With right loads I would bet that it could. However the first poster was only commenting on the Mag release. Will a plastic mag release last as long as a metal one? I highly doubt it.

Is it a design flaw? No. The Edge/Axis was designed to be an entry level rifle to compete with guns like the Remmy 710/770, and the Wal-Mart version Mossbergs, etc. Does it do that? Yes. Is it better than the competition in that class? Yes.


Unfortunatly to get all the features that the Edge/Axis has in that Entry Level Class price Range, some things were just not going to be made as well. Looks like the mag release is one of the things that suffered, and in my opinion so did the trigger, but again thats just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by bootsmcguire

Does it shoot as good? Most likely. With right loads I would bet that it could. However the first poster was only commenting on the Mag release. Will a plastic mag release last as long as a metal one? I highly doubt it.

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It depends on the particular plastic its made out of. Many polymers will far outlast metal in that type of application (mag release tab)
Just because its "plastic" doesn't mean its inferior.

People make many assumptions. One being that just because a particular feature is on an inexpensive rifle, and its not the way "everyone else" does it, it MUST be junk, right?
Just like the "new" poly trigger guard on ruger 10/22's. Its different from what it used to be so it must be junk, but those that have tried both with an open mind report they cant tell the difference, even on worked triggers.

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Originally Posted by dacaur

People make many assumptions. One being that just because a particular feature is on an inexpensive rifle, and its not the way "everyone else" does it, it MUST be junk, right?

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I am a logical kinda of guy, if it was better than metal and cheaper to produce (since plasitc parts are almost always cheaper to make than metal ones) they why did Savage only elect to put it on their "Entry Level" and not on all the new models?

Look at the Remmy 710's. They put a plastic bolt guid sleeve inside of the action. The bolt slides on plastic rails. When new they felt pretty good, after 100-200 rounds the bolt gets sloppy and drags on the worn edges of the plastic.

All I know is I have had several Plastic releases and trigger guards fail over the years and I have yet to have a metal one fail. Most plastics get brittle and crack in cold weather and won't take the abuse steel will at those temps. Thats all I am saying.

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People make many assumptions. One being that just because a particular feature is on an inexpensive rifle, and its not the way "everyone else" does it, it MUST be junk, right?

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Hey now, Savage lovers have been dealing with that kind of metallity from the Rem-chester crowd for years, so i hear what you are saying. "It's a cheap gun with an ugly nut. Get rid of that junk and buy a man's gun" is just one of the things I have been told at the range. They ussually change their story when their $2000 Custom gets shown up by a $600 Savage.

I think the Edge/Axis is a nice platform for those who want an affordable rifle that will shoot. I think that the trigger is a little stiff, but its not too hard to fix that now. These are just my observations and opinions. Not trying to start a pissing match, cuz frankly no one wins when that hapens, except maybe everyones bladders :D.

I have a 111FCNS and was thinking about getting an Axis that I would use as a semi-custom build project. You know, replace the trigger, stock, and recoil lug for starters, then T&T the action and see where we stand. Does this sound like a reasonable course of action or is the quality so bad that I can't get it's function/performance better than my 111FCNS? I welcome some first hand opinion before I possibly throw away my money.

looking for a budget 270. have held the axis and i have no doubt it can be a shooter but much like the 770 it is niot for me. i am going to go the used stevens route instead which is the axis price new at wally. i just like the feel of the 200 alot better.

Freese, Doing all that to an Axis is possible but I can't say that I have heard of too many aftermarket stock options for the Axis/Edge rifles. Might wanna check on that before making a decision. Just a thought.

Probably not a good idea right now to buy an A/E with the idea of much modification other than trigger work or polishing the lugs, etc. Do you want it to shoot good or look good?

You're better with what you have for that or pick up a Stevens to completely rework. On the other hand if you want a rifle than shoots excellent and you don't want a fortune tied up in something that you keep in your truck or even a light carry rifle, then consider the A/E.

I've owned dozens of rifles over the years. Some I have liked; others not so much. I have hunted with every rifle I have ever owned. That is why I buy them. I currently have two Edges; one a .223, and te other a .270. I like them and have no plans to throw them away like a Bic lighter. I have modified them to meet my needs, and hell, I may just buy another in .308. Say what you want about the Edge, but I'll tell you this: Though they are not for uppity connoisseurs and rifle gurus, for the average guy who likes to shoot and bring home game, they are cheap, they are accurate and they are durable. Soon there will be aftermarket stocks for them as well. I'm glad Savage came out with this Volkswagon beetle of rifles.
Don't bother flaming me; that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Well, here is my newest update....

Took it out again with 2 new types of ammo, some federal 150 grain and some Remington 180 grain. (the ones I used before were Remington 150 grain)

The 180 grain rounds didn't group well, I shot 8 of them and couldn't even see the holes through the scope, when I got the the targets I found they shot about 6 inches low so thats why I didn't see them, heh I shot two groups, each about 4-5 inches....
The federal 150 grain rounds did pretty well, the first two groups ended up at about 2.5 inches, grouping 3 inches left and an inch low, so after adjusting my scope I shot one more mag of the first Remington 150 grain rounds and found it was grouping at about half the size it had last time I was out (I only brought one mag worth of those) So I went back the the federal 150grain rounds and shot the final group of the day, since the range was closing... the first 3 went into under 1.5 inches, with the third widening the group to about 2.5 inches......

IMO not bad, since I was using a carpeted box as a rest, and resting the rear of the stock on my left hand.... most people there there were using gun rests/vices.... I took a look at their targets while I was in the pit and have to say, they didn't do any better than me, some much worse...

So Yea, I am happy with the gun....

See - you just needed to shoot some more and try different ammo. I'd be willing to bet your groups will continue to shrink with your next few outings as your barrel breaks in and you get used to your gun.

Took her out again this weekend.....

Very impressed with this gun!!!. With the original remington rounds it was grouping around 3.5 inches. before I left I shot the last of the federals (the ones it likes best) and got a group with 3 holes touching, then the 4th 1.5 inches down and right.... This seems to be a recurring theme here... it will shoot the first three great, then the 4th is down and right..... Is it just the bbl heating and I should wait longer between shots? right now I am shooting the 4 round mag with about 30 seconds between shots.

Could be the barrel heating up. Try waiting 5 min (or longer) between shots for 5 shots and see if that makes any difference. That should tell you if its barrel heat or not. I am sure it has already been said somewhere in these 4 pages of posts but, Be sure the barrel is free-floating also.