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I just got a new PT&G Savage Bolt body M#112 short action . Put the new bolt togather and now it will not stay cocked . The new bolt body is made thinner where the cocking piece is so do I need a new cocking piece that goes in the bolt ? If I push it all the way in it will cock one time then I have to do the samething over again .
Thanks Art
Do you have the Accutrigger? Did you check that you have assembled properly? Explain what you mean by: “if I push it all the way in it will cock one time then I have to do the same thing over again.” Can you explain a little more clear?
I have a Rifle Basix trigger . If I put the old bolt body back on it works just fine . I called the cocking piece and should have said cocking pin don't catch on the sear and will not cock . But push the push the cocking pin in it will stay cocked .https://pacifictoolandgauge.com/4087...-bolt-body.jpg
See the bolt body is a smaller Dia where the cocking pin goes . so I can push the pin in or put it out because of the body different dia . Yes I have all the parts right in the bolt body , because if I put the firing pin back in the old Bolt body everything works ok .
I think I may need a later cocking pin to go with this bolt body . I bought this gun new in 2004 and my bolt body didn't have the resessed section on the body .. would there be a difference in the cocking pins ?
The factory Savage uses a different diameter where the cocking pin goes in as well. Are you saying the cocking pin is coming out? The pin is held in place by the cocking sleeve. When exactly are you “pushing” it in? Before you rack the bolt? I’m sure it can be remedied, but without seeing it, it’s difficult to say what is happening.
Doesn't really matter. Obviously there is some machining difference. Contact PTG for a refund.
The bolt bodies that are reduced at the cocking ramp use a thicker cocking piece pin.
Oh… you have an older rifle with a bolt like this, huh?
https://i.ibb.co/qx2NbZZ/1-A23-ED97-...71-CDC4-D8.jpg
Opposed to newer bolts like this.
https://i.ibb.co/F0psDWx/56-F42-A9-E...76-ACF9569.jpg
Yes, it’s like Fred said. Sorry. I didn’t even think about that. Well, if you have trouble finding one, I’m actually going to machine a new one from Titanium. I’ll give you my factory part when I do. I might even machine several in Titanium. We’ll see
You could also use a shim under the one you have. Haven’t tried this, but the argument is sound.
I would do this. (If I wasn’t making a whole new.) use some shim material. You can measure the diameter difference of the two bolts & use shim stock as close to that as possible. Cut a piece and drill the appropriate pin hole size through it. Then epoxy to the underside of the pin. When is cured, you can file, sand the excess. Or if you have the means, chuck it in a drill and spin against a grinder, belt sander.
Where would you put the shim?
just buy the correct part for it now that you know there’s a difference? Probably the fastest fix.
Maybe Gunshack has it? If not Fred probably has hundreds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Yes , with a newer bolt body . I really didn't know there was a difference till I did some diggen .
I'll take your factory pin and could you make me a Titanium pin . Not asking for a freeby .Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Do you have a cocking pin that will work with a old style bolt with the new bolt body ?Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Guess I need a new cocking pin for my new bolt body that will work with my old firing pin . LOL LOL That is crazy LOL I hope there is such a animal . LOL LOL
This old gun shoots pretty good it will got in the 1's in one time out of 5 100 yrd targets , I just wanted to take some of the slop out of the bolt . My old bolt had a dia of .293 and the new one has a dia of .7000 and it works in the old action pretty good .
The Cocking piece has been the same all the way up to the newer 1-piece style firing pin that has the cocking cocking piece built in. So yes, it’s the standard cocking piece pin still used in the higher end series 110’s & 12’s. But finding one in stock is the problem. Gun Shack does not have them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtinNC
Numrich has this one, but I’m not certain if it’s the thicker style.
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1354170g
Edit: on looking at the schematics & cross reference, I do think that is the thicker pin. It should work. If it doesn’t, I’ll give you mine. Again, I’m making some new ones anyway.
The bigger bolt may feel better, but it won't necessarily shoot better. I've seen several cases of a larger diameter bolt body causing more flyers because of the fact it has removed some of the "float".Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtinNC
I agree. I’ll grab one at some point. Just haven’t up to now because there’s always something else, LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtinNC
Well I have ordered two new cocking pins for a later ( 2018 ) model savage and they are all the same as my old 2020 pin . Where can I order a new pin and get a pin with a thicker head ????
I just measured the head of both cicking pins and one is .024 thicker than the other . But the new one still will not work. I'm missing something here . Bolt bodies both measured the same , only defference is the dia on the bolt body at the cocking pin . The way I see it I need a cocking pin with the head .183 thick . No one has ever put a newer bolt body on a older bolt before ??
I posted a link in response #16. I’m not 100% positive it’s the correct one, but I believe it is. Check it out. I’m actually starting to machine a couple of these pins from Titanium this week. We’ll see how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtinNC
Yeah ,I have ordered one from Numrich the picture looks like it is what I need .
Thanks , Art
I started making a new Cocking Pin from 6AL4V Titanium today. Got the body turned down. I still need to shave just the tiniest bit off. Then machine the head to depth and cut it correct length. Love that Titanium, but man o man the stuff can be frustrating if you let it. A new level of patience is needed with it. Especially when no using the best of tools. Again, no Lathe for me, so all turning is done via Mil.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtinNC
https://i.ibb.co/cYqrtX8/E777-FD31-1...E4-E6649-A.jpg
How are you making these on a mill? If u need me to do anything on the lathe for you lmk. Any worries about the Ti not being hard enough? I assume the cocking pin is hardened steel. I know in the machine shop I have seen titanium have wear resistance issues.
Appreciate that…:tea: How do I turn things on a mill? Veeeery carefully, LOL! Seriously, the same way items are turned in a lathe. I can only do small items. And it doesn’t have very high precision of a good lathe, so I have to finish by hand. And also, I don’t make things which require precision to the Ten-Thousandths decimal. Oh, and nothing intricate. I can’t turn on a bevel or do threading. Just small pieces parts.. like this, or the Firing Pin I made.
No, I’m not worried. You said in the machine shop you’ve seen Ti have wear issues. Compared to what? The factory Pins are a low alloy steel & firearms parts aren’t as “hard” as people think. Certainly not to a custom Knifemaker like myself. I deal with many very high alloy Tool & Stainless steels which I heat treat & temper in the low 60’s HRC Rockwell. That’s HARD! And no gun part is hardened anywhere near that level. Firearms parts are heat treated in the low 30’s to 40’s Rockwell, typically. A 1911 Sear is probably one of the harder gun parts, and they are only maybe 43HRC. Now Titanium is actually harder than many people think. At least Grade 5 Titanium. That’s 6AL4V, denoting the chemical composition of 6% Aluminum & 4% Vanadium in the mix! It’s typically 30-34 Rockwell in the full Annealed state. Properly solution & aged treated Titanium will reach 41+ Rockwell. Work hardening can add another point or so. So the numbers are actually very close. I’ve actually played around with making titanium knives, and while it’s certainly not blade steel, it’s still pretty hard.
Oh, just for reference: Remember on the Rockwell “C” scale, a Diamond is the hardest substance at 100HRC. The Hardest steel used for cutting tools, like the lathe bits many people use, are maybe 65-67HRC. The hardest steel we can produce currently is REX 76 & 121 which will reach about 71HRC. That is CRAZY hard!
That makes sense, we have had a company have us make pins that were used in harsh environments mainly for corrosion resistance, they ended up having wear issues and going to a heat treated stainless. I can remember which one now it's been several years. But you are correct if it's not a hard steel there are no worries at all with ti. Also you must have some extreme patience to make these how you do. They look impressive, I don't like running Ti even with a 50k lathe lol
I do have some other-worldly patience… but also, I’m disabled & not on a clock. I can’t do much for very long. So I might do a little for 45mins to an hour and need to stop. By means, my patience is pretty much a given, LOL! Little projects take me days & days, or even weeks! If I was my old self, pre-accident, and machining full time or even very regularly, I would not be using Titanium much. It’s too time consuming, too hard on equipment & WAY to costly..both in material & tool usage! I can get away with it for little items like this because I’m slow & only making 1 or 2 of these small parts I make. Even the firing pin I machined was made from S7 tool steel, not Titanium. (Although I’ve thought of doing one in Titanium.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew863
Dave Hoback , I made custom knives for about 34 years had to quit because of my back I could never grind a knife setting down . Last year my hip got to hurting so bad I give my Boys in Ohio my mill and lathe . Now I'm a lot better and wish I had them back , but at 83 I'll just do with out . You can go to my FaceBook page and see some of the knives that I have made , there is about 3 Art Summers on faceBook so you have to get the right me .
Very cool! I actually don’t do FacePage or Tweeter.. or Instawhobody.. Hobby forums are the only form of social media I’ve been a part of since about 1999-2000.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtinNC
Are you a Blade Smiff, Hammer/Anvil & Forge? Or a Knifemaker like me? Take a piece of steel & remove any material that isn’t the blade? Forging is cool.. it’s fun. But it’s more for making “pretty” knives. I’ve never pretended with Knifemaking. I’m no artist, LOL! I make high performance cutting tools from high end materials. The steels I use are all modern PM steels. (Not powder metal, but rather Particulate Metallurgy.) A person could heat these steels as hot as can be in a forge & try to shape it with hammer & Anvil….and these steels will literally laugh! I hear you on the tools. I’ll never part with my equipment. My son can have everything when I’m gone. (He’s not the least bit interested though! Loves Firearms/knives, but he rather just buy them. Makes me sad.)
I did some Forging but mostly stock removal . As far as I'm consern stock removal is about as good as forging I know lot of people will disagree but when really put to the test not much difference . I used FaceBook to sale my knives the last few years I made them . All I can say I made lots of dirt .
Oh it’s not about one being better than the other. Not the process that is. It’s about the steel. In forging only simple Carbons are used. All the 10XX steels. A lot of 1080, 1084, 1095, & 1060. Then there is pattern welded or what I call Fake-mascus steel, LOL! Again, one of the simple Carbons mixed with 52N20 because of its Nickel content. And very popular one is 1084/15N20. Honestly… this stuff is JUNK! It looks pretty. That’s about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtinNC
I agree about all the pattern stuff. As decoration is is pretty to some. When I saw someone fold COPPER with steel I was horrified. And the trip hammer and heavy press have made the process too 'easy'.
I remember when a Japanese blade meant something special (and some still do). Making modern steel from things like meteorites and iron with hammer and fire. Folding just the right amount to make the core. Layering with softer steel on the sides and stiff along the back (I know there's a name for that). Heat treating with the clay tempering pattern. Even the handle was a work of art with wood base and sharkskin under the wraps. I had one of the more common swords for many years, brought back by my father. A zero had to land on their island due to damage and he got the sword. It still had a razer edge on it after 40 years. It is in a museum now.
You are correct Charlie. The availability of power hammers & presses to the hobbyist has made those things very easy. Craftsman are making all kinds of pretty steel knives & swords. Mixing copper & steel…using meteorite iron… even mixing Gold with steel! It looks nice. But the materials are different. They aren’t compatible chemically & never truly fuse. BTW: the layered steel using softer on the sides & a hard center, that’s called San Mai construction, which is a Japanese technique. Now on that note, about Japanese folded steel; while it was (and still is) good, it’s only real strength was in it’s cleanliness; the purity of the iron sand. The steel which the Japanese use for the very best cutting instruments is called Tamagane. It came about during feudal Japan. (12th to 17th centuries). While we have the stories of the incredible strength & cutting ability of the ancient Swords, it’s really just folklore. These same swords are still being made today in Japan, and yes, they are the most highly prized & costly; the work Tamahagane even means precious. Although it’s not for their cutting ability today. The truth is, swords made today from other modern steels are much, MUCH better than anything made at any other point in history. The Japanese swords were so good hundreds of years ago is the same reason the true Damascus steel swords of the Vikings, the legendary Ulfberht swords, made with Wootz steel, were good….Because of the steel’s cleanliness of the steel. How few impurities the steel had. The modern world of production has made it even better! At the end of the day however, those ancient swords & knives made from Tamahagane & Wootz Damascus are still simple Carbon steels. Any sword made now from say 1060, will easily match them. And by modern standards, 1060 is about the worst thing to use. The Steel we make today is better than at any other point in history.
I agree. Modern methods of refining, alloying and the ability to heat treat down to 10's of degrees or better has made it 'simple'. And steels today should be better than ever. 'We' have spent more than a century working on metal properties people didn't even think they needed 100yrs ago. And, I do love the modern steel in my hand woodwork tools. :)
My point was those ancient methods were done by hand in a coal fired, hand blown forge with materials they dug out of the ground themselves. In an age when many didn't have access to any form of steel they figured it out. The old saying, "We stand on the shoulders of giants." is appropriate.
FWIW, my 'best' kitchen knives are plain high carbon steel. They sharpen easily and hold their edges long enough to do a days work. A few swipes on the 'steel', a swipe of mineral oil, and they are back ready to go. 'Regrind' every now and then.
With regards to the OP's original question. If you have some calipers, measure from the front of the two bolt bodies to the cocking piece pin shelf at the rearmost of the window. If that shelf is closer to the bolt head end than the factory bolt body, that may be your issue. I guess the spacing for the crossbolt hole to the end or the shelf could be a potential non conformance making the sear not catch on the trigger. Another way you could tell is with it assembled and in the action see if the sear is in front of the trigger(sear) or behind it. When customizing a SAV2 to work on a bottom release I found this issue.
With my calipers from the front end of the Bolt body to cocking pin shelf it is 4.10 on both bolt bodys . Cross bolt to shelf new is 3.610 and the old is 3,640 . " sear is in front of the trigger(sear) or behind it." I don't understant that I'll have to do some checking to find that . I'll get back with you .Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
That’s ok ArtinNC… I don’t understand it either! :confused:
I still don't understand , But put the old bolt body on and it worked fine , then I put the new bolt body back on and it would not cock , Then I held the trigger forword ZZZZAM It worked , So for some reason it must be in the trigger . Just like someone said earler Trigger must be to light . LOL I just don't want to miss with the trigger but guess I'm going to have to . I'll let you know tomorrow .
Wait, do you have the correct size Cocking pin? I was under the impression the ones you got were the same one you have? The thinner head style? Did you get that Cocking Pin I posted the link for?
No I don't have the cicking pin from Numrich yet it is in the mail should have it by Monday ., that is what I'm waiting on and if that don't work guess I'll work on the trigger . I have the trigger set the way I want it and hate to chang it .
I wouldn’t touch the trigger. It’s already a fact the problem lies with the new bolt sleeve & older cocking pin. When you receive this other cocking pin you’ll know immediately if it’s the other style the same one you already have, simply by measuring. Should never alter another part with no assurance it will cure the problem. If when you you measure the new pin it is in fact the later style needed and it still will not function correctly, this would mean the bolt sleeve is out of spec.
One thing I question… you measured the two bolt sleeves having the same distance between the end & the pin shelf, but .030” different between the cross pin hole & shelf. This means the cross hole is drilled closer to the shelf. What I question is, does this not affect the Hokt Head fitting in the bolt sleeve?
No , the locking lugs fit the same as the old sleeve . The only thing that I see is the Cocking pin miss the sear because of the bolt body (sleeve ) is smaller dia at the cocking pin and the pin should have a thicker head . Wish that Pin would get here .
If the trigger will not catch the sear and you hold the trigger forward on close and it works, then you have a trigger spring preload problem. I just measured 12 cocking piece pins. It is not easy to get an accurate reading but it looks like .090" plus or minus .005".
Based on the diameter of the body(.690) minus the diameter of the relief(.635), .055 divided by 2(.0275) would be the extra thickness needed to maintain the same proximity from the cocking piece pin to the wall of the lug raceway. so the question I ask is your cocking piece pin close to .090" or closer to .062. Seems strange for that to be the problem since the arm of the sear that reaches up into the raceway is usually more centered and would probably bind trying to slip by when closing the bolt. These are real facts.
Try increasing the preload on the trigger return spring and test it. It would be good to know how that turns out.
I just got the new cocking pin from Numrich today . Numrich Part Number 1354170G said they had 4 left . And I put it in and it works I worked the bolt 12 times and had one no cock . So to make it safe I will have to increase the preload on the trigger return spring maybe just spray it with break cleaner . I have been shooting this gun as is for 4 years and no problem , I just use it for bench shooting . I really never liked the slopy bolt my old bolt body was .692 dia and the new one is .7000 dia , hope i don't have to go back to the old bolt body .
I'll let everyone know how it works out with the new bolt body and some targets .
Thanks for all the help ,
Art Summers in NC
You are very welcome. Glad it worked out. I was pretty sure that was the correct pin as the other cocking pin which they showed out of stock, was listed in the schematics for the Pre-‘66 guns. Good deal.
Eh… even a broken clock is right twice a day! :tea:
On another note, I finished the one I made in Titanium as well. It to functions perfectly. Also made a new trigger pin & the bolt Cross pin also in Ti. The pic below shows my bolt with both the Titanium Cross pin & Cocking pin.
https://i.ibb.co/zGyd5bp/7-AB628-D1-...085-BBBFCC.jpg
Looks good , I really miss my lathe and mill , I'm not a machinst but can usely make what I want .
That’s how I operate. I don’t do any of this as a profession. Im a hobbyist machinist. Same with gunsmithing/building & Knifemaking. Never done any of it as a profession, although my work in these areas can deliver some professional results.
Shot this today with my new bolt body . Gun shoots the same as always . better than me .
Picture