think my brake is broken

didnt notice till I was shooting long distance at very small target. during recoil it jumps to the left every time. Just looking at the brake it looks balanced and timed right. I was trying to make sure I wasnt loading the rifle so it was getting pushed in that direction. Im sure I have a pic of it somewhere. My question is this. Can it be fixed; like enlarging a vent or port? I also was shooting off wooden table when I noticed it. Im going to do some more shooting of the ground but I still think some thing needs to be done.

1. so can it be fixed
or
2. scrap and start over

doc

I've shot several breaks and most jump one way or the other and that is the reason I only use the JP break now.

Unless the ports on one side are visibly larger than the other, there really shouldn't be that much difference. As LR said, most brakes will jump one way or another to begin with, and it's really up to the shooter to manager recoil and re-engagement. Shooting off a wooden table with a slide grade probably doesn't help tremendously either.

It will always jump to the left...it's called "torque". It's worse on faster twist barrels and lighter guns. A muzzle brake may tame rearward recoil, but it does nothing for torque. The only way to eliminate it is with a wider stock and heavier gun.

Performed this modification on 300 win mag when rifle was jumping to right.

BIASING
As produced, jp Compensators are "neutral"in lateral thrust, meaning they have no natural
bias to the left or right when firing. However, with just av ariable-speed hand drill,the
compensator can be easily modified to give a thrust bias into the support hand, which
makes the overall impulse of the rifle more linear for off-hand, kneeling or any position
shooting other than prone off bipod or weak-hand, in which case the modification will
actually work against the shooter.
Our original technique for biasing the lP Compensator was to drill a new hole through the
side of the comp on the flat area just behind the first expansion chamber. Since then,
we've found that it is just as effective, if not more so, to simply open up the two holes on
top of the comp as needed: the right ones for a right-handed shooter and the left ones for
a left-handed shooter.
Conveniently, this modification can be performed without removing the compensator from
the barrel. Simply lock the barrel securely in a padded vise so that you can easily access
the comp. The top holes of all jp Compensator models are 1/8"as manufactured, so begin
by opening the holes up with a 5/32"drill bit. Test the modification by firing a few rounds.
__ Then. incrementallv increase the_bore size, testing the rifle_after each increase until satisfied.
CAUTION: Muzzlebrakes by their very nature redirect high pressure gasses and can
blow dirt or other materials present in the shooting area back towards the shooters or
bystanders, especially at indoor ranges with enclosed shooting booths. Always wear eye
protection and ear protection when shooting or observing.
This device isconsidered a "compensator"by BATF, not a "flashsuppressor" and is not
designed or intended to be a flash suppressor.
THANKS FOR YOUR BUSINESS!
Visit us at www.jprifles.com
P.O. Box 378, HUGO, MN 55038- VOICE: 651-426-9196 • FAX: 651-426-2472

Can you give me more info about your set up. What biipod, stock/chassis, what brake, and weight of the rifle? It's possible some adjustments in shooting technique can help as well.

Have you read this article.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/0...tay-on-target/

Neat chart half way through the article.

Its good to read also that others have had similar problem, i.e. jumping left. Initially when I noticed it I tried to take out or neutralize any body forces and just allow the rifle to act the way it would act and it still jumped left. Maybe the barrel would move an inch or so but that is big at 300 yrds. I am glad to hear that there may be things that can be done.

Its a Remington 260 with bartlien barrel mtu taper so its heavy. Cadex chassis and prs butstock and harris bipod. The brake is a custom from smith that trued the action, three large ports on sides that seem to line up quite well, three top vents and a vent at the 11 and 1 oclock position at the back of the brake.

I guess I didn't notice it off of front bags. I need to go back and test it under more conditions. I did go to prone off the ground and didn't seem to jump left however I was only shooting 100 yrds and it wasn't as noticeable. I only had 5 rounds left when I went to prone so Ill have to load back up and try some of the things I have read here and other places.

I think one of the things that made it more noticeable first of all is that was one of my goals yesterday was to try and keep sight picture so I was really concentrating on it. And secondly, my wifes new rifle has a different kind of brake and it stays straight although it will have to be replaced because it kicks dirt every where. (radial brake)

I like the idea of "tuning" the brake to compensate for torque. But I want to be absolutely sure its torque and not some stupid thing I am doing. I would hate to have the brake drilled on and come to find out my form is off. Cant go back till next Sat but I will have lots of time to dry fire. Ill look through some pics I have and post one of what it looks like.

Are you new to shooting with a Chassis? They do take some getting used too and are not as forgiving on recoil management as a more traditional stock.

This is my observation after running an XLR Element for the last year. You have to drive a Chassis like a Ferrari. Your form has to be perfect as it exaggerates any flaws or inconsistencies in your form.

The traditional high quality stock like a McMillan or Manners type seem to be more forgiving to me. Kind of like a good pickup truck. Fit is easy and comfortable and recoil is taken up much more naturally. I shoot better with a traditional stock as it has been more natural for me. In the end it's all personal preference, but I just want to point out the adjustment period with shooting a Chassis.

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...204_192849.jpg

There are many theories on Muzzle Brakes and what works best. I think that's the most holes I have seen to date other than a radial though. I think a lot of it has to do with you adjusting to the new rig.

Last suggestion on my end would be when shooting off the bench using a bipod don't try to shoot it like a bench rest gun. Sit behind the rifle and not to the side. Pretty much like a prone position, but more upright. I like to pull the rifle into my shoulder slightly with my firing hand because it's quick and repeatable for any position I shoot from. When using a Harris Bipod I don't load it as it tends to "run away" or off to the side during recoil or bolt manipulation due to the way the feet rotate freely. An Atlas Bipod or similar type bipod on the other hand requires being loaded lightly for recoil management.

If your shooting with a bipod on a bench you will be apt to get muzzle jump.
Possibly something attached to the top permitting you to load the bipod would help.
Bipods are a wonderfull thing, but not necessarily for bench shooting.

Not new to chassis but new to a lighter weight chassis. The cadex is the lightest weighted rig in my safe. The barrel adds a bit more weight back but it does not compare to the savage 10 and 110's. Ive been shooting those for around 4 years. Its only been a few months that Ive had this rifle. Im just glad to hear its something I could be doing wrong. That means it can be fixed. Or at least minimized.

RPB.... So that adjustment Biasing was for rifle jumping to right? Im not going to change anything about the brake until I rule out shooter influence absolutely. But still good to know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doctnj

RPB.... So that adjustment Biasing was for rifle jumping to right? Im not going to change anything about the brake until I rule out shooter influence absolutely. But still good to know.

---

JP Industries doesn't define which direction. In my situation I concluded that by increasing the size of the right upper side ports would solve the issue.

The torque doesn't have anything to do with the brake, it's the fact that the bullet is turning to the right and the barrel is turning to the left...action/reaction. This starts as soon as the bullet leaves the case. When the propellant gases hit the brake, the bullet is already out of the barrel. Biasing a brake will only redirect gas after the fact.

^^^This!!! I wouldn't drill or grind anymore on that brake. If you want to throw money at it, try a different brake and see if it works better for you. My preference remains the APA Gen II Little *******, but there are many good brakes out there. Try pulling the rifle back slightly into your should with your firing hand first. I good reference for how much is what ever the rifle ways try to put amount that much pressure. I.E. if your rifle ways 15lbs, pick up a 15lbs dumbbell and that's what the amount of force applied should feel like.

It didnt help matters that I was having a hard time putting good groups together as well. I sometimes dont understand how you can go out one time and shoot like a laser beam one day then on another, you cant put together one really good group. So then when I couldnt keep it on target my confidence went in the crapper. This will be eating my lunch all week till I can get back out and figure out what is going on. I appreciate all the pointers.

The first thing I have to do is get out and shoot off front bag and see if it still flips left. I realize that a bag will probably minimize the flip but if there is none at all or very very little then Ill realize that the rubber feet on the hard surface may have multiplied the issue. I need to shoot at distance with the bag as well as off the ground at distance then off bipod and compare all three. If they are all three similar results then I have to look very closely at me then finally the brake. That at least for now is my plan of attack.

My wife needs a new brake so we may look at the apa little b for her. That way I can see it up close and see how it works. Does it use a timing washer?

It's all fundamentals. Breathing, focusing on the crosshairs, trigger control, and building the same solid position every single shot when group shooting.

If you need to for practice actually write down your mental checklist and practice it every shot until it's muscle memory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doctnj

It didnt help matters that I was having a hard time putting good groups together as well. I sometimes dont understand how you can go out one time and shoot like a laser beam one day then on another, you cant put together one really good group. So then when I couldnt keep it on target my confidence went in the crapper. This will be eating my lunch all week till I can get back out and figure out what is going on. I appreciate all the pointers.

The first thing I have to do is get out and shoot off front bag and see if it still flips left. I realize that a bag will probably minimize the flip but if there is none at all or very very little then Ill realize that the rubber feet on the hard surface may have multiplied the issue. I need to shoot at distance with the bag as well as off the ground at distance then off bipod and compare all three. If they are all three similar results then I have to look very closely at me then finally the brake. That at least for now is my plan of attack.

My wife needs a new brake so we may look at the apa little b for her. That way I can see it up close and see how it works. Does it use a timing washer?

---

i have those days all the time and quit worrying about them...it still bothers me but i know that if i can go out one day a shoot a few small groups and the next day they open up i know its me not the load or the rifle...if your constantly second guessing everything you will always be chasing your tail...trust me i know!...and also why i stopped shooting groups and looking for a perfect load for almost a year and went into full test mode to see the effects of changes in powder charges,primers,case prep,weighing and sorting bullets,trimming meplats and a few other things...i found things that work well and other things that didnt work or didnt make a big enough difference for the added work.

with all that said i found the biggest thing is trigger time...after all that testing and playing with different things i started filming myself shooting and found several things that caused more problems than any of the loading or rifle issues i thought was causing problems...and at the top of the list was rolling my shoulder forward into the butt pad...that one took me a LONG time to correct and every now and then i still catch myself doing it.

as LW said work on fundamentals and dont worry so much about one hole groups they will come later when you have better control.

Well id agree with what LR said, but my question would be are chasis type guns shot off bipods intended to be
used for shooting small groups from benches? Would the same gun in a benchrest stock using a proper rest show different results?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yobuck

Well id agree with what LR said, but my question would be are chasis type guns shot off bipods intended to be
used for shooting small groups from benches? Would the same gun in a benchrest stock using a proper rest show different results?

---

Only because it's easier to shoot off a rest on a bench than it is a bipod because the rifle is mechanically driven rather than shooter driven...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

Only because it's easier to shoot off a rest on a bench than it is a bipod because the rifle is mechanically driven rather than shooter driven...

---

Not sure I'm following you on that, but I'm assuming your saying the results depend upon the quality of the shooters.
To which I would concede, and ask that it always depends on the quality of the shooter dosent it?

I'm saying it's easier to shoot a BR set up off a bench (hence the reason it's called bench rest) due to the fact that you have a mechanical device to adjust and steady the rifle.

When using a traditional non-FClass type bipod it's up to the shooter to get into a good position that supports and steadies the rifle.

I'm not really impressed with accurate shooting with some of the crazy Bench gun or FClass setups that look like they take out every issue, but a wind call.

There was a guy that used to shoot our long range steel matches with a 35lbs 300WinMag F-Class Rifle using a mechanical front rest. He'd shoot the match clean almost every time with the furthest targets only being at 900yds. No one was impressed by it because any shooter on the line could win with that rifle/set up unless there was some really extreme wind or something. That's when the club starting running tactical matches more often and setup more rules about the set ups that could be used.

All I can say is that all you steel bangers could learn a lot by attending a real bench rest match and just observe. You may have the opinion that what bench resters do have no real connection to your discipline, and anybody could do it with that kind of equipment. Once you soak it in, you'll have a whole new way of thnking.
Every little accuracy improvement that is associated with precision shooting in the last 50 yrs., including bullets, barrels, bedding, powder, stocks, optics and other misc. gadgets and tools, can be attributed to a "bench rest shooter".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

All I can say is that all you steel bangers could learn a lot by attending a real bench rest match and just observe. You may have the opinion that what bench resters do have no real connection to your discipline, and anybody could do it with that kind of equipment. Once you soak it in, you'll have a whole new way of thnking.
Every little accuracy improvement that is associated with precision shooting in the last 50 yrs., including bullets, barrels, bedding, powder, stocks, optics and other misc. gadgets and tools, can be attributed to a "bench rest shooter".

---

Completely agree Fred! A lot has come from High Power/XC/and PRS type shooting as well. I'm just to young and hard headed to be confined to a bench or shoot all belly matches, but I do try many different practices as they all apply in some way or another to the style of shooting I primarily compete in. That's the best part of PRS is there's a little bit of everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doctnj

It didnt help matters that I was having a hard time putting good groups together as well. I sometimes dont understand how you can go out one time and shoot like a laser beam one day then on another, you cant put together one really good group. So then when I couldnt keep it on target my confidence went in the crapper. This will be eating my lunch all week till I can get back out and figure out what is going on. I appreciate all the pointers.

The first thing I have to do is get out and shoot off front bag and see if it still flips left. I realize that a bag will probably minimize the flip but if there is none at all or very very little then Ill realize that the rubber feet on the hard surface may have multiplied the issue. I need to shoot at distance with the bag as well as off the ground at distance then off bipod and compare all three. If they are all three similar results then I have to look very closely at me then finally the brake. That at least for now is my plan of attack.

My wife needs a new brake so we may look at the apa little b for her. That way I can see it up close and see how it works. Does it use a timing washer?

---

Everybody has those days. One day your the real deal, the next a lost soul.
agree with everyone else. Trigger time. Fundamentals.
There's days when I know I'm not one with the gun.from having a bad day to being just plain tired.
What's helped me is using snap caps for dry firing. That a long with simple 3" cross hairs I make using a red marker on a plain white paper. When I align the black cross hairs from scope to the red cross hairs on the paper, the red cross hairs disappear. If I move even the slightest horizontally or vertically during the process, the red cross hair reappears. Works for me.

As a family, we do a lot of long range shooting because it IS shooter sensitive. That brings out the competitive nature in our family. We had an opportunity to go to a class that used the f type rests and I/we totally passed. Thats not how we will shoot so really other than ballistics and verifying dope I dont think that would be as good as classes that use bipods and other means of support that relies on shooter skills and fundamentals of marksmanship.

I talked with a local smith yesterday and sent him pictures and measurements of my wifes existing brake so he can start the process of making her something that doesnt throw dirt in your face. I will say this about the radial brake thats on there now. Its the most neutral brake I think ive ever shot. But a face full of crap every time you pull the trigger is not worth it. So I will see what he spins up for her and how it works. She has a very similar rifle to mine so this is a pretty cool comparison when its all said and done.

This smith builds all kinds of custom rigs, but specializes in race guns where getting muzzle movement completely neutral with a brake is the goal for speed shooting. If after he gets done and I personally have similar results on hers I will feel a lot better about my own rig.

And as soon as I get my creedmoor and 338 back from Fred Ill put them together and compare muzzle movement with them. I do remember sight picture interuption, I just dont remember what direction they went. The reason I was hyper focused on this is when everyone says "see your hits". I dont know maybe 400 yrds is too close to regain sight picture to be able to see your hits?

For now I will not worry about it but just shoot.

if you can not see hits at all distances you have some work to do....i can see all of my impacts even with my long action 260 without a break but that rifle is just under 20lbs...one of the biggest things ive noticed when ppl cant see their impacts is they blink or flinch when shooting or both...both will cause you to come off the scope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

all i can say is that all you steel bangers could learn a lot by attending a real bench rest match and just observe. You may have the opinion that what bench resters do have no real connection to your discipline, and anybody could do it with that kind of equipment. Once you soak it in, you'll have a whole new way of thnking.
Every little accuracy improvement that is associated with precision shooting in the last 50 yrs., including bullets, barrels, bedding, powder, stocks, optics and other misc. Gadgets and tools, can be attributed to a "bench rest shooter".

---

ahmen.

You are absolutely correct there. I just read on another thread that if a rifle goes to one side every time it is likely the slant of the shoulder putting it there. I could have very well had my shoulder slanted back or just not square enough to keep it on target. On sat. I shot my wifes new rifle and I watched every round hit the paper and was really impressed I could do it. That is one big reason I was trying to do it with mine. I did/do still struggle with blinking but not so much on Sunday. But it wouldn't have mattered if I blinked because it just plain went left. I saw another drill to help get the shoulder square. Basically you get in position and with the right hand extend your arm and reach for the fore arm. Once extended you almost freeze you shoulder and just articulate you elbow and bring the hand back to the trigger. I may try this.

OK I am aslo going to tell on my self. Don't know if it attributed or not but I cant leave this out. It was a really nice day so I was shooting with out a shirt on. Could have contributed to the slip I guess. Im going to have T. video me from several angles so I can see my set up and shoulder angle. Going to do that with dry fire and then out at the range. I liken this whole thing to my trainer in body building. She is constantly yelling corrections at me for an hour because I slip into bad habits especially as I get tired. I think Im going to have a t shirt made that says "stop moving your neck".

you need to shoot in a relaxed position and bring the rifle to you not move into the rifle...if your moving to the rifle that will cause you to roll your shoulder forward..if your blinking when you shoot you are most likely flinching too...good positions to set a camera to see bad habits are directly over you with the camera pointing down and focused from your shoulder to the end of the muzzle...close up shots of your trigger finger as your shooting and close ups of your face on the opposite side of your scope eye(so left side if your right handed)then watch the vids in slow motion...if your tensed up it will cause twitching and involuntary muscle movement.

And stay focused on the crosshairs. All the way through the recoil pulse. It will help with both blinking/flinching.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

And stay focused on the crosshairs. All the way through the recoil pulse. It will help with both blinking/flinching.

---

+1.... To me?..thats one of thee most important factors.
"this" is the main reason I use home made cross hair targets. Cross hair on target aligned to cross hair at scope. It helps me get back to the basics. Sometimes (as Im sure other long range shooters do) we "at times" over think things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LongRange

if you can not see hits at all distances you have some work to do....i can see all of my impacts even with my long action 260 without a break but that rifle is just under 20lbs...one of the biggest things ive noticed when ppl cant see their impacts is they blink or flinch when shooting or both...both will cause you to come off the scope.

---

In general terms I don't agree with you on this. Not implying that (you) cant do as you say here.
But an average shooter or even an above average shooter wont be seeing all his hits at the closer distances.
Especially when using a bipod from a bench. Granted, the heavier the gun the easier it becomes.
But at 500 yds the bullet arrives as quick as we can blink, or maybe unknowingly recover from blinking.
Seeing the hit is important in long range shooting for sure. Seeing the hit in long range hunting,
is even more important because regardless of whats said, they usually dont just fall over dead.
Id recommend a team effort, with you spotting for your wife and vice versa. Its supposed to be fun, at least
for the most of us. When it starts becoming work, then it ceases being fun, but again for the most of us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LongRange

you need to shoot in a relaxed position and bring the rifle to you not move into the rifle...if your moving to the rifle that will cause you to roll your shoulder forward..if your blinking when you shoot you are most likely flinching too...good positions to set a camera to see bad habits are directly over you with the camera pointing down and focused from your shoulder to the end of the muzzle...close up shots of your trigger finger as your shooting and close ups of your face on the opposite side of your scope eye(so left side if your right handed)then watch the vids in slow motion...if your tensed up it will cause twitching and involuntary muscle movement.

---

If you go to a benchrest match and observe, especially where heavy recoil guns are used, you will see the gun setup and aligned with the target.
After each shot, the shooter will slide the gun forward to its original position on the bags, and realign himself behind the gun, and not bring the gun to him.
The modern way seems to be to use lighter recoiling guns with stocks that ride straight back on the bags. Then shoot all the shots as fast as you can reload without realinging the gun.
Ten shots in under 1 minit cant include much of anything but loading and sending it. I'm not sure if the current
world record group, the smallest ever shot with any gun at that distance, was shot in this manner or not.
But it was a 16.5 # gun and not a heavy version as is allowed in the heavy class. Had he shot this group with this gun, in a heavy gun match as many do, he would be holding both records today.
Point is that the discipline determines things as to how we shoot moreso than personal choice. And nowhere would that be more important than in traditional position shooting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yobuck

In general terms I don't agree with you on this. Not implying that (you) cant do as you say here.
But an average shooter or even an above average shooter wont be seeing all his hits at the closer distances.
Especially when using a bipod from a bench. Granted, the heavier the gun the easier it becomes.
But at 500 yds the bullet arrives as quick as we can blink, or maybe unknowingly recover from blinking.
Seeing the hit is important in long range shooting for sure. Seeing the hit in long range hunting,
is even more important because regardless of whats said, they usually dont just fall over dead.
Id recommend a team effort, with you spotting for your wife and vice versa. Its supposed to be fun, at least
for the most of us. When it starts becoming work, then it ceases being fun, but again for the most of us.

---

well i can see my impacts at every distance so i dont need a spotter and as a matter of fact when i shoot matches i ask the squad i get put with to NOT call hits or misses or call if i was low..high..left or right because i can see where my shots impact and(as i tell the squad)im not trying to be a dick but i dont like hearing all the chatter when im shooting all i what to hear is the next distance nothing else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yobuck

If you go to a benchrest match and observe, especially where heavy recoil guns are used, you will see the gun setup and aligned with the target.
After each shot, the shooter will slide the gun forward to its original position on the bags, and realign himself behind the gun, and not bring the gun to him.
The modern way seems to be to use lighter recoiling guns with stocks that ride straight back on the bags. Then shoot all the shots as fast as you can reload without realinging the gun.
Ten shots in under 1 minit cant include much of anything but loading and sending it. I'm not sure if the current
world record group, the smallest ever shot with any gun at that distance, was shot in this manner or not.
But it was a 16.5 # gun and not a heavy version as is allowed in the heavy class. Had he shot this group with this gun, in a heavy gun match as many do, he would be holding both records today.
Point is that the discipline determines things as to how we shoot moreso than personal choice. And nowhere would that be more important than in traditional position shooting.

---

but we are not talking about bench rest shooting off bags where the rifle slides straight back...if your shooting in positions or off a bipod and chasing your rifle it causes problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LongRange

well i can see my impacts at every distance so i dont need a spotter and as a matter of fact when i shoot matches i ask the squad i get put with to NOT call hits or misses or call if i was low..high..left or right because i can see where my shots impact and(as i tell the squad)im not trying to be a dick but i dont like hearing all the chatter when im shooting all i what to hear is the next distance nothing else.



but we are not talking about bench rest shooting off bags where the rifle slides straight back...if your shooting in positions or off a bipod and chasing your rifle it causes problems.

---

:deadhorse:

Poor horse.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hotolds442

Poor old horse.....

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fixed it.

Went to the range with lots of good suggestions and put many of them to work today. Did quite a bit of shooting at 400 so that coming off the target would be extremely noticeable. First thing that I changed was getting on to the ground and off the hard table. I made sure I was in a pretty good position and loaded the bipod. The mat we use has a sewn in strap that allows you to get a nice load. I concentrated on not blinking and what do you know? I actually kept the target in the middle of my sight picture. Not every time but much much more than ever before. My confidence is back, well... somewhat any how. When I did loose the target, it was in random directions and not always left so I dont think it is the brake just bad habits.

Now what do you think of this. I watched my wife shoot a nice tight group at 100 and I had a 1 1/4 inch vertical spread. This is a load that I did a ladder test on and it worked very nice when I picked it. Much tighter than this. But, I had to seat the bullet considerably deeper to get it to reliably feed from the magazine. That is the only thing that has changed from the ladder test. Oh, and lots of powder of course. Now the strange part. I then go out to 200 and shoot basically a 1 inch group. Then out to 300 and shoot a 3 inch group. then maybe a 3 1/2 at 400. I should be happy with 3 1/2 at 400 yrds right? This is the second week in a row that it was spread out a little at 100 yrds. I could be over thinking it and shanking a few but my question is this. If Im getting real nice groups out at distance I shouldnt really care what happens at 100 yrds right? I know.... if it doesnt start accurate it wont become accurate.... so its got to be me is my guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LongRange

with all that said i found the biggest thing is trigger time...after all that testing and playing with different things i started filming myself shooting and found several things that caused more problems than any of the loading or rifle issues i thought was causing problems...and at the top of the list was rolling my shoulder forward into the butt pad...that one took me a LONG time to correct and every now and then i still catch myself doing it.

as LW said work on fundamentals and dont worry so much about one hole groups they will come later when you have better control.

---

If I could go back and not waste time on searching for the perfect load for my first 10 years of precision rifle shooting I would have been much better off. I did enjoy load development and still do but spend no more than 60 rounds on it anymore.

To the original question....whomever mentioned barrel twist and the forces acting against it is correct. Most brakes of that design will exhibit some consistent side to side movement usually due to twist and design of the brake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doctnj

Went to the range with lots of good suggestions and put many of them to work today. Did quite a bit of shooting at 400 so that coming off the target would be extremely noticeable. First thing that I changed was getting on to the ground and off the hard table. I made sure I was in a pretty good position and loaded the bipod. The mat we use has a sewn in strap that allows you to get a nice load. I concentrated on not blinking and what do you know? I actually kept the target in the middle of my sight picture. Not every time but much much more than ever before. My confidence is back, well... somewhat any how. When I did loose the target, it was in random directions and not always left so I dont think it is the brake just bad habits.

Now what do you think of this. I watched my wife shoot a nice tight group at 100 and I had a 1 1/4 inch vertical spread. This is a load that I did a ladder test on and it worked very nice when I picked it. Much tighter than this. But, I had to seat the bullet considerably deeper to get it to reliably feed from the magazine. That is the only thing that has changed from the ladder test. Oh, and lots of powder of course. Now the strange part. I then go out to 200 and shoot basically a 1 inch group. Then out to 300 and shoot a 3 inch group. then maybe a 3 1/2 at 400. I should be happy with 3 1/2 at 400 yrds right? This is the second week in a row that it was spread out a little at 100 yrds. I could be over thinking it and shanking a few but my question is this. If Im getting real nice groups out at distance I shouldnt really care what happens at 100 yrds right? I know.... if it doesnt start accurate it wont become accurate.... so its got to be me is my guess.

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Different lot # propellant along with changed seating depths equate to change.
Its been my experience that load development results at 100 (to me) which are consistent with small tight groupings results in "tighter" groupings at distance.
I had a younger shooting buddy (mid 20s) who tagged along with me for a spell while shooting long distance. I worked up an accurate load for the kids rifle. Rem 700. heavy varmit 26" 1-12... I chronographed and worked out the ballistics for the kid. I frequently shot his rig and was able to obtain positive results from 300 out to 1K. With him behind the rig, the outcome proved to be inaccurate. I visually watched him work his rifle and realized all his short commings. I advised him on just about everything that shooters here in the sight have told you. the one thing I believe helped him the most was I made him purchase and use snap caps as to practice body position,s and dry firing with the scope cranked to full mag so he could see all of his movements magnified while going thru the motions of pulling the trigger. few months later I came upon him at the range and low and behold, the kids hitting his objectives. he showed me the snap cap he was using and Ill be darned if he didn't wear the dam thing out. Later that evening I went down to the local GS and bought me a snap cap and started taking my own advise lololololoololo..............

This 8 shot pattern that Dave (long range) acquired at 100 equates to tighter patterns at distance. You,ll win bragging rights when tossing them out to 1K. ( with proper wind dope)
Its been a while since Ive acquired an 8 shoot grouping like that. Most I can do is a 5 shot grouping like that.
My point?...... Nice and tight @ 100 = tighter groupings at distance.
Just my 2 cents
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Trigger time!!

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Originally Posted by LongRange

well i can see my impacts at every distance so i dont need a spotter and as a matter of fact when i shoot matches i ask the squad i get put with to NOT call hits or misses or call if i was low..high..left or right because i can see where my shots impact and(as i tell the squad)im not trying to be a dick but i dont like hearing all the chatter when im shooting all i what to hear is the next distance nothing else.



but we are not talking about bench rest shooting off bags where the rifle slides straight back...if your shooting in positions or off a bipod and chasing your rifle it causes problems.

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Well if you can that's wonderfull. But not everybody can, and everybody wont at every location and under all conditions and distances.
Like say 6" of snow or certain types of vegetation or ground cover where no dust or other indicators appears on the hit.
Id agree with not wanting lots of chatter going on from multiple spotters. Just one, experienced to offer advice if and when its needed.
My comments were intended as general in nature, and not directed at you or any other experienced shooters who obviously need no help.

I found it to be a completely new and exciting experience to have the target remain basically centered in the reticle after the shot.

I was playing around with the idea that I should re run the ladder test around the load I am shooting if the problem persists of me not being able to keep
a tight group at 100. Last week I couldnt seem to hit where I was aiming so I gave the rifle to my wife. She shot a few times and handed it back saying its dead on. Well I want to pursue that a little more and have her shoot it more than 2 or 3 shots and see if that is true. If she puts them all together then I indeed know its all me. I have too much form and technique issues going on to get to wrapped up in changing the load. When I was working up this load I shot off a front bag. Do you think I should check it off a front bag again to see if the changes to the cartridge have really changed poi that much?

I always do load dev and group tests the same way as I'm most likely going to be shooting the rifle. Recoil characteristics change when shot differently. Since the majority of my shooting is shot prone off a bipod and rear bag, then that is how I work load dev.