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team, my 7mm rm brass has been shot about 5 or 6 times (Winchester brass) and I'm starting to have jams loading and unloading so I will full resize the shells but I wonder if this a good time to anneal. also if anyone can point me out to a good "online how to" that will be great.
thanks!
Here is some info on annealing. I anneal my 338LM brass about every 3 firings and sounds like you brass is starting to grow in length, so yes, this would be a good time to anneal and full length resize and push those shoulders back about .002
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
I anneal about the same.
I f/l size w/o the expander each loading then neck with a redding S die. Find accuracy was more consistent f/l sizing each time. Which seems to conflict with internet wisdom.
6 firings my brass is about how I like but primer pockets on the other hand...
I anneal every second firing and FL size every time...my FL die is set up to just touch the shoulder...i like a snug fit on my brass.
Theres a lot of different ways to anneal but get yourself a bottle of tempilac 750 so you know your not over or under annealing.
this is a pretty good jig/"machine" that is affordable and inexpensive. In some respects, it might be over priced for what it is, but then again, it works as advertised and SIMPLE.
I like it, anyhow. http://www.cartridgeanneal.com/anneal-rite-video.html
Since getting it about a year or two ago, I anneal every couple firings.
I anneal and FL after every firing.
I copied a setup from another fellow I found online. It's cheap, I think less than $75. It also runs as fast as the automatics.
Lee lead melter, Potassium Nitrate (stump remover), and some scrap metal I had laying around.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...alingdemo2.mp4
thanks everyone for their info.
GearGrinder, you care to elaborate?
Did you watch the video?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandy
Click where is says Salt Bath Annealing
I saw the video but outside of a couple of captions there is not much info.
interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by geargrinder
I anneal every time. Here's why. I believe that consistency is the corner stone of precision (accuracy) and I believe that neck tension is an important factor and that neck tension will not be the same with work hardened brass compared with annealed brass. Plus, I track too many factors already when it comes to brass. I shoot 2 rifles chambered in .223 and I keep their brass separate. Having additional categories for "not fired", "fired once", "fired twice", "fired three times", etc. would make my Zip Lock bag cost too high. Annealing every time is much easier for me than counting times-fired, especially with my home-made machine.
Here's a picture of the one I built. It's not very expensive, it was fun to build, it works great and is better than many of the factory versions plus costs a LOT less. It even has a case counter.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/728/2...1d2a6fa7_o.jpg_DSC3404
Mozella
Sir, you are a craftsman. Well done.
My opinion and that of many bench rest shooters is it is more work than necessary to shoot good. Most brass will give you between 8-10 firings with out problems(unless loaded over max) and even Lapua at $.88-$1.00 a case is only averaging around $.09 a shot. How many firings do you want? and are you willing to take the chance of a brass problem when in competition or hunting the buck of a life time. NOT ME.
100 cases last a full season plus, so when the next season comes around NEW brass start over.
Yesterday out of curiosity I asked 8 or 9 guys who are all top br shooters and they all said to a man " not me, it is just not worth the time or effort." Buy new brass for each new season and each one of theses guys shoot every weekend at a match some where between Maine and North Carolina and have been for quite some time. Personally I will go with their advice.
thats funny because ive heard the exact opposite of what you heard from the BR and F-class guys here...I shot a 600yd F-class with bob hoppie and bob lache yesterday...both anneal every time...bob hoppie shot a 595(through a dasher with 4k rounds through it with 1 set back)not sure on Xs...bob lache shot a 599 and I believe 45X out a 6.5 284 that he just got rebarreled and was shooting 2 different loads...1 load jammed and one .020 off the lands.
and I'm not arguing just stating what ive heard from the top guys here...I also know that if I don't anneal after about 3-4 firing I can feel the difference when I'm seating and my seating is inconsistent.
LongRange as I stated short range 100 - 300 yards, almost all shooting 6ppc, 6mmbr or 30br and none shooting over max load. The majority fl size after shooting and load by volume, some during the match others preload. Remember this isn't long range group type of shooting, it is one shot on each target at given range, 5 targets on a page per relay with unlimited sighters.
Almost everyone is using Lapua or Norma brass trimmed and most but not all neck turn.
The reason I was asking is to see if maybe after 40 years of reloading I was doing something wrong for this style shooting and the general consenses was no just keep doing it the way you are and practice, practice, practice.
All of these guys have been at this a long time and every one of them says you need a 1/4 minute gun to be at the top of the score list consistently. With 5 or 6 of these guys being record holders for score shooting I'll follow their advice.
I am not a competetor and never really was at least to the point of being serious about it.
I cant remember hearing much conversation about annealing even from the serious shooters
i knew well untill rather recently. In fact most of them including a few record holders never annealed cases.
Id think that today with record groups being as small as they are and the competition being what it is,
shooters are grasping at every straw they can with the hope of winning. I think in reality it always has come
down to a good shooter with an exceptional gun coupled with a good portion of luck for setting records.
I was by no means trying to sway you from what the guys told you or ruffle your feathers I'm only stating what I have heard from other top shooters here and what ive tested and know works for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtfroggy
you have about 30 more years of re-loading than I do so maybe I'm the one doing something wrong...but it seems to be working pretty well so far.
I agree about the shooter and gun and also agree that guys are doing and trying everything they can to reduce group sizes...everyone has their opinion on what works and what don't...because one guy don't anneal and one guy does or because one guy FL sizes and one guy don't but both are shooting tiny groups does that make one way wrong or right?...I read a lot and talk to a lot of old shooters...I take in what sounds reasonable and let the rest drift through...if something sounds reasonable I will or have tried it...annealing is one that I tried and it helped a bunch as well as FL sizing every time...I shot for almost 2yrs and never annealed or FL sized until I had to really lean on the bolt to eject then id size with a body die neck size and shoot...never tumbled,never cleaned primer pockets just load and shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
Speaking practical... with the 7mm rm the op referenced.
I shot 100 rounds of factory ww ammo saving the brass to reload. Of those I had 13 with spit necks.
I annealed the rest and afterwards no more split necks. Now I anneal all my bottleneck brass.
Keeping things consistent seems to be key.
I f/l size because it helps me be consistent and in a pinch can share some ammo between rifles.
Having a die that fits well keeps the bulge at the belt from forming. Took me a couple before I got one that worked well.
Doesn't seem to matter which method to follow as much as treating the cases exactly the same.
The auto feed annealing looks very cool. Still use the deep socket, pail of water n a torch.
The salt bath method looks more my skill level. May give that a try sometime.
I do believe annealing might help in improving case life. Especially with neck splits as has been mentioned.
Reshaped cases and old new brass seem especially vulnerable to neck splits. On large capacity cases the primer
pockets are the main cause of case failure and annealing dosent help that. It would seem to me the neck consistancy
argument is what might cause me to anneal for accuracy if i were a serious competitor. But that for me would be one of the final
pieces of the puzzel, after the picture of first me then the gun were complete.
First my apologizes to Nandy for taking this some what off topic.
Yobuck reading your posts and seeing we are about the same age I would venture to guess we were taught the same thing when younger. That being if you can hit a six inch pie plate 5 for 5 you are good enough for hunting deer, then it was hit a 4" pie plate, well you know what I mean. Personally I always felt that was wrong and started loading so I could keep all my shots 1" or better at 100 yards and being in Ct. never had the need for a long range load (still don't).
Then I foolishly started BR shooting and that changed the playing field, had to relearn reloading because now I have to chase the smallest groups possible so everything is measured and weighed twice before it is completed, it takes about 3 hours to load 50 rounds for a match.
LongRange no problems with the discussion we are both adults with differing opinions and ways of doing things. No one way is perfect or for that matter right they both are. Do what works for your style of shooting. I am going out on a limb here and will say I doubt any shooters shooting your discipline load during a match where as at short range not only do some load at the match they load for the changing conditions for the match. Some of them only bring 25-30 cases with them and load as they go, putting 6-7 firings on a case a day ( no time for annealing).
When I started this game 4 years ago I was told new barrel new brass, new season new brass and stubbornly didn't follow this advice until this year. The brass I shot this past Saturday has at least 7 maybe 8 firings on it, it has never been over loaded for higher velocity and when shooting for groups stays well under .3 for 5 shots@ 100, averaging 2890 fps for 105 gr. 6mm bullet.
Now the season is over and it will be relegated to brass for hunting loads. Next year I will be using a 6mm BR screwed on to my PTA and very possibly a 30 BR screwed on to my Mod. 12 single shot. Thinking about Hunter class for that one- 6x scope no heavier than 10 lbs. total, I will need a whole lot of practice for that one, I don't know if I can see that 1/2" circle or the 1/16 dot @ 100 with a 6x scope. I highly doubt it my eyes are old, it seems like the targets get further and further away every year.
Over all I guess what I am saying is there is no one way to load the perfect bullet but many ways to screw up a bullet, so what ever works for you go for it. I wish you nothing but good luck for all your shooting whether competition or hunting and seeing some of your posted targets it isn't luck that is needed.
what would you say is needed?Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtfroggy
For the other competitors to have bad days. lol
On a serious note maybe just maybe a small tweak on your seating depth or just a little less velocity otherwise they are very good for the discipline you are shooting. Remember I DO NOT shoot long range or your style of shooting so I could be way off base here.
In the style I shoot horizontal is typically seating depth and vertical is velocity( up too much, down too little).
LOL...agreed...the thing with me is i post the good with the bad i dont just post the one hole groups which both of my rifles will shoot and i am always looking to improve so not all my targets look like shot gun blasts believe it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtfroggy
after my F-open match saturday im going to play with seating a little first then neck tension...all my shot broke clean but were drifting high and low in and out of the X-9 and 10 ring.
my apologizes as well to Nandy for taking your tread off topic
Do a search but IIRC " if the sun is up aim low, if the sun is down aim high."
On Sat. with full sun I was a little high in the 10 ring when it went to full cloud cover I dropped 3 shots low just out of the 10 ring (lost the match because of it) ended up clicking 2 up and went back to dead center.
In comp. every little thing counts.
I know in long range outdoor target archery, on a bright sunny day, if a cloud happened by, it affected your shot left or right (can't remember which way). It seems hard to believe, but it's true. Tell that to a novice shooter that does well just to get 1/2 of his arrows into the 4 inch ten ring at 90 meters and you're gonna mess him up.
I also suspect that different rifles will need different annealing practices. If it's a tight chamber, the brass is less likely to get over worked, therefore it will not NEED to be annealed as often.
I say if you suspect your brass will shoot better after annealing, try it. If it helps, try it more often. If you enjoy it, anneal twice just for good measure. ;) Consistent neck tension and load development, etc. never hurt anyone.
it was over cast,cool and very very light winds all day...basically a perfect day so none of that came into play which leads me to believe one of 4 things...neck tension,seating,charge weight or primers...my ESs are a little higher than i like and i think it maybe the primers but i will start with neck tension + and - .002...then seating farther off the lands as ive already been closer...then a primer swap...if none of that improves my ESs i will work my change weight .2gs both ways...im 99% sure its one of the 4 and leaning more toward the primers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtfroggy
Well when i first tried joining here they told me i was too old. lol So next time i lied about my age. If the age listed for you is accurate, im affraid im 17 years your senior.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtfroggy
Years ago i shot hunter class matches in the old Issac Walton league at York PA. I liked that better than group shooting. Im not really disiplined enough for competetion in any serious
way.
Longrange one thing at a time, other wise you chase your tail. When I found the right load for this 243, my chrono was showing 2888-2892 for a 15 shot string and I was right at the mid point according to Berger, so I stopped right there, 5 shot groups @ 100 were 0.162-0.165 but now after 1000 shots they have opened up into the upper 0.2's. I only use CCI large rifle primer and IMR 4895, appears to work for me.
Yobuck when I catch up to you, God willing, I hope I can remember how to get into the safe never mind how to shoot.
while i havent been loading as long as a lot of you guys i have things figured out...i know one thing at a time...i went out last night after work and shot 15 rounds over the chrony...1 5 shot group and one 10 shot group with BR-2s and still higher than i like ESs so that eliminates primers for the most part...next will be neck tension..then seating depth...then powder charge...if it dont shoot well enough ill go back to H4831sc...im playing with H4530 right now which has never shot as well as 4831 in any of the barrels ive shot but i have about 17lbs of it...if it dont produce saturday ill trade it off.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtfroggy
[QUOTE=rjtfroggy;
Yobuck when I catch up to you, God willing, I hope I can remember how to get into the safe never mind how to shoot.[/QUOTE]
Well look at it this way, you already have answers to things many others will spend years looking for.
As for the safe, you will be just fine so long as a 30 year old isnt standing behind you humming while your concentrating on opening it. lol
Years back the max scope power for the hunter class score matches was 6x. Is that still the case?
I used a Weaver T6 on a tuned up Rem 700 varmit in 6mm rem.
Yes 6x scope and no more than 10 lbs. for the entire set up.
Sorry, I've been away elk hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandy
There's not much to elaborate on. Lee lead pot, molten salt (potassium nitrate), a gadget to hold the necks at the proper depth in the salt.
I use a high temp thermometer to get the salt set at the proper temp. Then I just get into a rhythm that gets the neck to the color that makes me happy. Makes my brass look like factory Lapua.
did you got one????Quote:
Originally Posted by geargrinder
Back to the gadget....
Keep in mind I am trying to recreate what you do..
What is the proper temp for the molten salt? do you go use 750?
No, they were a little scarce. I saw 5 bulls in a week and a half. The only one I saw twice was about 365" but wouldn't let me inside 400 yards. Way outside my muzzleloader's range.
Gadget:
Mine is a little more simple than the one in the video.
I used a large flat plate that covers the top of the pot. It has two opposing holes sized for my largest case. In the middle is a small hole for a long machine screw that holds another plate submerged into the salt. I use a wing-nut on top of the top plate to adjust how far the lower plate is submerged into the salt.
You want the top plate to cover the salt as much as possible. Pretty much to act as a heat shield.
Yes, I heat my salt to 750 degrees.
I can use my bare fingers to place and remove all but my shortest cases- 300 blackout I use a pair of needle nose pliers. The case heads aren't annealed, they are just too close to the super hot top plate.