Load development and barrel cleaning?

Well first off let me say I'm fairly new to hand loading so take my limited experience as it is. After my last trip to the range I came home and thoroughly cleaned the bore of my savage 12 bvss 22 250 (almost new rifle) with hoppes #9 solvent until my patches came out clean to remove all my powder fouling. Then yesterday I went to the range to try out a new load I had worked up. I only loaded 10 cartridges because I simply wanted to see if it grouped well enough to justify messing with that load anymore. My bright idea was to shoot them first ( i had other loads with me) thinking the clean barrel would be a benefit. Well I set up my chronograph just to check out the velocities as I shot them. First shot around 3300...ok slower than I thought but if its accurate who cares right. Next shot 3330, no biggie. Then 3370, 3400... and so on until the last shot at just over 3500 which is about where I thought it should be and needless to say forget about a decent group with the ever climbing velocity. And no I shot pretty slow the barrel never got over "just barely warm". Well I continued to check other loads and after I got 15 or 20 total including the first load down the pipe guess what my velocities flattened out. Several loads tested were very consistent. Shot several sub .250 groups (at 100yds) with later loads I checked. So long post longer did I mess up cleaning my barrel before testing a load? Seems like my gun shot alot better fouled. This will be a hunting rifle not a bench rifle I'm just trying to figure out a good load for shooting groundhogs this summer. I see so many guys on other forums who apparently clean barrels all the time but I don't think thats working well for me. I just started using a chronograph when I started loading so I'm learning a lot and fast. Any input on this would be very helpful! Thanks!

You figured that out fairly quick. Every barrel I've ever worked with had to be fouled before it was consistent. This is normal.
If you think about it, the barrel condition changes after every shot until it reaches a point of being consistent. Your 2nd shot will never be the same as the 1st, etc, etc.
I don't clean my target rifles until accuracy starts to go away, usually about 200 rounds +/-.
When working up a new load, always shoot some "foulers" before you begin. If I clean my target rifles, I always shoot a few....or 5, before the next match.

Thank you! That's kinda what I was wondering. I guess basically as you foul the barrel you get a tighter and tighter seal until you get to the point you push out as much as you leave behind which basically equalizes? Well good learning experience and good excuse to reload and retest that load on my fouled barrel!

I isn't that a fouled bore shoots better, it is that mostly load development happens with a fouled bore; so the preciseness of that potential load is dependent on the bores specific condition at that time.

I used to always want a clean bore, and would take clean bore shot every day. So during load development, I'd push a solvent soaked patch then a dry patch through the bore after each shot. That way I'd have loads that would be precise with clean bore shots.

Now I just keep my bore fouled, until I either get it wet, or in high humidity, or when precision deteriorates, (which hasn't happened yet.) Usually, after I clean the bore, it will take a few shots to get me back to the fouled bore POI; but some loads have the same POI fouled or not.

Without fail, a dirty "fouled" rifle will almost always outshoot a clean barrel. I don't clean any of my barrels until accuracy starts to fall off. For hunting rifles I always make a pre-hunt trip to the range to verify my scope's settings and foul the barrel...I then do not clean the barrel until the season is over and the rifle is ready to be stored for the off-season. Most people over-clean their barrels, which will shorten life a much if not more than shooting.

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Originally Posted by 110_Tactical

I isn't that a fouled bore shoots better, it is that mostly load development happens with a fouled bore; so the preciseness of that potential load is dependent on the bores specific condition at that time.

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The first I've heard THAT reasoning! Not saying it ain't so, but I think there's other reasons for a fouled barrel being more accurate than that. I think it has more to do with allowing the carbon and copper to fill the scratches, tooling marks and flaws of the barrel. When I first started handloading I cleaned my barrel every couple shots and I had difficulty getting any load to shoot well consistently. If you are right, I should have been able to find a "clean bore" load and a "fouled bore" load. That never happened. All I have found is once I get a good load, it shoots more accurately after a couple fouling rounds, whether the barrel is warm or cold. :) and my factory Savage barrels need at least 5.

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Originally Posted by foxx

and my factory Savage barrels need at least 5.

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Five seems to be the magic number for my factory barrels as well. But, my Shilen barrels usually only require one...if any.

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Originally Posted by Texas Solo

Five seems to be the magic number for my factory barrels as well. But, my Shilen barrels usually only require one...if any.

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It seems to support the theory that the reason fouling can help is it helps correct for tooling marks, etc. Otherwise, higher grade barrels with fewer tooling marks, etc. would also need more fouling. Just my thoughts.

Agreed. Hand lapping by the pros is a wonderful thing, albeit expensive.

yo1. Go to 6mmbr.com and read what the bbl makers have to say about break-in and cleaning. It ranges from "clean after every shot" to "never". Could be a way to sell more bbls. However, most premium bbl makers say they have seen more rifle bbls ruined by poor cleaning practices (muzzle end, JB, etc), and rapid firing, than anything else.
I have a large collection of rifles and I refuse to shoot any bullets that haven't been HBN coated. Yeah, it slows the rounds down, but it's worth it.....

IMHO, flame suit ON!!!

ron

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Originally Posted by foxx

The first I've heard THAT reasoning! Not saying it ain't so, but I think there's other reasons for a fouled barrel being more accurate than that. I think it has more to do with allowing the carbon and copper to fill the scratches, tooling marks and flaws of the barrel. When I first started handloading I cleaned my barrel every couple shots and I had difficulty getting any load to shoot well consistently. If you are right, I should have been able to find a "clean bore" load and a "fouled bore" load. That never happened. All I have found is once I get a good load, it shoots more accurately after a couple fouling rounds, whether the barrel is warm or cold. :) and my factory Savage barrels need at least 5.

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There are no "scratches, tooling marks and flaws of the barrel" too fill with most of my barrels.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../howa4Bore.jpg

Here is a bullet fired from that bore while perfectly clean.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...0-06fmj150.jpg

And with the bores with flaws, if your assumption was correct, this bore would never produce a sub-moa load.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps808bd9d4.jpg

Because you are never going to get enough copper fouling to fill those flaws.
But it shoots wonderfully with minimal load development.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...LadderTest.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...gun/125moa.jpg

That is the best group I've ever shot, and is from a 90+ year old iron sighted rifle that has a bore which is extremely damaged.

After load development, the rifle usually produces groups such as this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...EddyShadow.jpg

That is with a WWI rifle.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...dystone320.gif

If your theory was true, there is no way I could fill those imperfections with copper fouling, and therefore the rifle would never shoot well.

I find that most people don't understand load development. I very rarely shoot more than 6 shots of load development before I find a sub-moa load.

Here is a clean bore group taken over 3 days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4167Ap5KsV4

That is a 3 shot .5MOA 300 yard group, each shot from a perfectly clean bore. Its simple physics.

Thanks for all the help everyone. I think I'm gonna go with the shoot it till it starts to lose accuracy idea or moisture ofcourse. I'm using the factory barrel so no custom barrel yet. Shoots great fouled but on a clean barrel it's 1 moa or slightly larger.

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Originally Posted by n4ue

yo1. Go to 6mmbr.com and read what the bbl makers have to say about break-in and cleaning. It ranges from "clean after every shot" to "never". Could be a way to sell more bbls. However, most premium bbl makers say they have seen more rifle bbls ruined by poor cleaning practices (muzzle end, JB, etc), and rapid firing, than anything else.
I have a large collection of rifles and I refuse to shoot any bullets that haven't been HBN coated. Yeah, it slows the rounds down, but it's worth it.....

IMHO, flame suit ON!!!



ron

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What is HBN coated? I've been playing with 50 g v max, 50 g moly v max, 50 nosler ballistic, and 53 g vmax.

So, 110, I did not intend to suggest a chewed-up and scratched barrel can't shoot well. In fact, I am sure it might actually shoot better than when new. I am saying some barrels (MOST all SAVAGE factory barrels) shoot better when fouled and it is not for the reason you stated.

I am not trying to pick a fight, just making a purely academic, moot argument. Why do you suppose Savage factory barrels have such a need (most commonly) for "heavy" fouling before getting good groups, and, just as commonly, cannot get a "clean bore" load and a "fouled bore" load. If your observations are correct, I should be able to do so, and I can't.

I DID say fouling and copper can smooth-out a bore... I did not say it is necessary to smooth out a bore. You can get lucky and have an accurate bore that is chewed up, but no one would attempt to make one that way intentionally.

Also, why does your barrel make your bullets bend so badly? :)

Finally, I get 1 MOA from all my factory Savages without much load development. Dang near everything I have ever loaded for them get 1 MOA at 100 yards, fouled or not. I simply have never settled for that. I generally expect 1/2 MOA or better from my Savage factory barrels and they must be fouled first to achieve it.

Correction: Obviously, not everything I load will shoot 1MOA, but it is not the standard I reach for and it is not difficult, at all, to achieve with my factory barrels. MANY loads will, however.

I've heard of some people's rifles taking 40-60 shots to start being consistent after a good cleaning and some going over 2000 rounds before accuracy issues. I'll keep the 5 shots in mind when I finally get around to shooting my new savage.

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Originally Posted by foxx

So, 110, I did not intend to suggest a chewed-up and scratched barrel can't shoot well. In fact, I am sure it might actually shoot better than when new. I am saying some barrels (MOST all SAVAGE factory barrels) shoot better when fouled and it is not for the reason you stated.

I am not trying to pick a fight, just making a purely academic, moot argument. Why do you suppose Savage factory barrels have such a need (most commonly) for "heavy" fouling before getting good groups, and, just as commonly, cannot get a "clean bore" load and a "fouled bore" load. If your observations are correct, I should be able to do so, and I can't.

I DID say fouling and copper can smooth-out a bore... I did not say it is necessary to smooth out a bore. You can get lucky and have an accurate bore that is chewed up, but no one would attempt to make one that way intentionally.

Also, why does your barrel make your bullets bend so badly? :)

Finally, I get 1 MOA from all my factory Savages without much load development. Dang near everything I have ever loaded for them get 1 MOA at 100 yards, fouled or not. I simply have never settled for that. I generally expect 1/2 MOA or better from my Savage factory barrels and they must be fouled first to achieve it.

Correction: Obviously, not everything I load will shoot 1MOA, but it is not the standard I reach for and it is not difficult, at all, to achieve with my factory barrels. MANY loads will, however.

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Foxx pretty much nailed it here...and most literature, professional/percision shooters, gun smiths and generally just about everyone I have spoke to on this topic and my experience agrees with the theory that in general, a fouled barrel will be more consistently accurate.

You're not reading, what I'm writing.

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Originally Posted by foxx

I am saying some barrels (MOST all SAVAGE factory barrels) shoot better when fouled and it is not for the reason you stated.

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My reasoning is consistency, that was the reasoning above. "until it reaches a point of being consistent"
A bore being cleaned before every shot, has "consistent" level of fouling... which is none.

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Originally Posted by foxx

Why do you suppose Savage factory barrels have such a need (most commonly) for "heavy" fouling before getting good groups,

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Short answer: "Consistency."
Long answer: "False premise." As I said before, most people develop a load on a fouled bore; it stands to reason that their loads will be tuned to that level of fouling. That doesn't mean those rifles "need" '"heavy"' fouling.

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Originally Posted by foxx

and, just as commonly, cannot get a "clean bore" load and a "fouled bore" load. If your observations are correct, I should be able to do so, and I can't.

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You haven't tried, you said, "I cleaned my barrel every couple shots and I had difficulty getting any load to shoot well consistently"
If your bore does not remain in a constant level of fouling, you'll not experience consistency.

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Originally Posted by foxx

I DID say fouling and copper can smooth-out a bore... I did not say it is necessary to smooth out a bore.

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"I think it has more to do with allowing the carbon and copper to fill the scratches, tooling marks and flaws of the barrel."
Sure sounds like you are backing off your premise.

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Originally Posted by foxx

I generally expect 1/2 MOA or better from my Savage factory barrels and they must be fouled first to achieve it.

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With scoped rifles i expect sub.5MOA and my cheap rifle gets it every time, with or without a clean bore.

Your whole reasoning is that your failure to develop an accurate clean bore load, provides us with fact.
My reasoning is that I've achieved that goal many times with many different firearms, (all my center-fire rifles actually.)
Your failures are just that, failures; they do not trump my achievements.

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Originally Posted by emtrescue6

Foxx pretty much nailed it here...and most literature, professional/percision shooters, gun smiths and generally just about everyone I have spoke to on this topic and my experience agrees with the theory that in general, a fouled barrel will be more consistently accurate.

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Well, when one abandons their original premise, then states the obvious...

went to the range today to retest that load with a fouled barrel this time. (6) 3 shot groups through the chronograph all real close to 3600, point is stayed consistent. Also between .250-.450 groups! Much improved

The last time I answered a question such as this was here.

how often do you clean a barrel? comment #26

If you'll notice, the comment begins with a link to a youtube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KRUAv3Byp4

In that video his graph shows the most "consistent performance" occurs between 60th and possibly 200th shot. He doesn't come right out and say that; instead he explains the theory of keeping the bore "as consistent as we can."

I agree with everything he says.


That is what I am doing, keeping my bore consistent with fouling, as well as the lack of fouling, (load specific.)

A benchrest shooter keeps his bore "as consistent as [he] can" by cleaning it every 25 shots or less; some only take 5 or so shots before cleaning. I just happened to clean mine after every shot, which is keeping the bore's condition consistent.

My initial comment was to dispel the notion of a bore needing fouling to be "consistent."

110, I am sorry but you dont know what you are talking about. I am saying that you cannot develop a clean bore load for Savage factory barrels that will be as good as your best fouled bore load. I believe your statement that most people just dont know enough to find a clean bore accurate load is b.s. your pics are certainly not savage factory barrels. I am confident that I could make my custom barrels shoot fairly well clean but not my savage factory barrels. And I am not backing off my original premise. You are not reading what I say accurately. Your pics do not address any of my statements whatsoever.

I am bored with this argument. I am right. And you do not know what I am talking about.

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Originally Posted by yotehtr1

went to the range today to retest that load with a fouled barrel this time. (6) 3 shot groups through the chronograph all real close to 3600, point is stayed consistent. Also between .250-.450 groups! Much improved

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Good to hear!

...sorry about the "debate;" I thought more information would be well received. :/

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Originally Posted by foxx

110, I am sorry but you dont know what you are talking about. I am saying that you cannot develop a clean bore load for Savage factory barrels that will be as good as your best fouled bore load. I believe your statement that most people just dont know enough to find a clean bore accurate load is b.s. your pics are certainly not savage factory barrels. I am confident that I could make my custom barrels shoot fairly well clean but not my savage factory barrels. I am already bored with this.

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You haven't any supporting evidence other than your failures. Then you come here to insult me and provide the anecdotal evidence whereas, Savage barrels do not apply to the laws of physics like other barres do.

It is not me that "[doesn't] know what [they] are talking about."

*ignores you further*

110, try finding an accurate clean bore load for savage factory barrels. Then find your best fouled bore load for the same barrel and report your results. After that, you'll likely see your annecdotal evidence of experience with non-Savage factory barrels is misleading you.

Just do a Google search on WS2 (Tungsten Disulphide) and HBN (Hex Boron Nitrate). These materials were developed for the space program and have the lowest coefficient of friction known. The WS2 is dark and messy. The HBN looks like powdered sugar. Both have particle size so small, it can get into the pores of your skin.
When 'impact plated' to bullet jackets, it bonds one molecule thick, because it can't stick to itself.

Lots of non believers dismiss this process, but I'll bet they can shoot as well as David Tubb!!!

I love it and NIB rifles shoot so well, most won't believe it....

Whatever....
ron

110

Oh absolutely I'm still very new to reloading and have really enjoyed reading the debate both ways. Thanks for all the help from everyone! Alot of good learning here for me. Seems to me the way you go depends on simply what works for your gun and your application. I'm fairly satisfied in saying my gun seems to like being fouled but I'm sure there are cases where a clean bore can be of benefit.

N4ue

I've never heard of that but very interesting! I thought I was high tech with my moly vmax's lol