Poor accuracy from 12LPV in 204

Hello all,

I recently purchased a model 12lpv in 204. I have been disappointed in the accuracy. I've tried Hornady 32 and 40 grain loads as well as Winchester's 35 grain moly coated offering. I'm getting well over 1 inch groups at 75 yards shooting off of bags. The 40 grainers are the worst and the 35 moly coated shoot the best, but all are pretty poor.

A little background on the rifle:

I purchased the rifle from a Gander Mountain on closeout for a very good price. I'm not sure the date of manufacture, as it has a blind magazine not currently offered on the Savage website. I'm guessing it's a few years old. I noticed before buying the rifle that it had a ding in the crown. Gander offered to send it back to have it fixed, but I was told it would take 3-4 weeks. I decided to recrown the barrel myself to save some time.

What I've done the the rifle so far:
When I got it home I took the rifle down to action and barrel only and chucked the action in a lathe, with the barrel in a steady rest. I noticed at the time that the bore was not concentric to the outer contour of the barrel. It wasn't off alot, maybe .005 - .006 TIR, so I didn't worry about it. I recut a flat recessed crown, and then carefully deburred the bore exit by hand with a 90 degree pointed steel rod and some lapping compound.

After a couple of range sessions I felt that something wasn't right. The groups have all been poor but with no vert or horizontal stringing. Tonight I tried to slug the barrel. I started a lead ball in the muzzle and was only able to get about 4 inches in before it came to a stop. I don't how small the barrel gets at this point, as I was unable to bush it through with my cleaning rod. Looking into the bore, the barrel looks great and it cleans extremely easily.

Where I am now:
Obviously the barrel has a tight spot about 4 inches into the barrel. I have no idea how tight it gets and if it really indicates a serious problem. My theory is that I'm getting some blow by after the bullet goes through this spot. I even notice some black residue clinging to the side of the bullet holes in the paper plates I was using for targets.

I don't know where to go from here and am just looking for some advice. Are these guns really picky about the ammo they like? Should I try to develop some handloads or do you think it's time for me to get in touch with Savage. Or is there something else I should look at?

Thanks in advance.

UGh......how many rounds down the barrel?

Have you cleaned it yet....I mean REALLY cleaned it?

204's can sometimes develop two nasty issues...carbon fouling or copper fouling...or both.

I have about 50 rounds through it and have cleaned it 4-5 times. It cleans very easily and doesn't take long to get a clean patch to come out of it. I don't think that I have any buildup in it. The bore is shiny after I clean it.

Try some naked 35g Bergers in it with BL-C(2) or benchmark.....be prepared to seat the bullets way off the lands too!

Shiny bore meaning what? Just looking through the breech end while pointing at a light source? Have you used any copper solvent on it like Sweets?

20 cals can be notorious for copper/hard carbon fouling!

My 204 VLP did not shoot well (1 to 1.5 inch 5 shot groups) until I got about 100 rounds through it. 32 and 40 gr V-max's never shot better than 3/4 inch. I tried 39 gr Blitz Kings, BR4, and H4895. Now it is sub 1/2 inch with very high measured velocity's. Keith

Yeah, just looking through it at a light. It looks shiny and the color is that of the stainless barrel. Good point though - I don't even know that you would necessarily see the fouling. I've only used hoppe's elite and the patches come out pretty clean after 3-4 wet patches and 3-4 dry one. I'll try something a liitle better for copper fouling and see if that gets rid of the tight spot.

This is the first center fire rifle I've owned so the obvious to some of you might not be so obvious to me! Thanks

kkeene,

Thanks for giving me some hope. I've been wanting to try the 39 gr BK's with some VVN530. I'm just getting into reloading. I'll try some better cleaning and some more range time and see what happens.

Any ideas floating around the forum on how a barrel could get that much better by shooting 100 round through it? I can see some improvement with the bullet smoothing out the tool marks in the bore, but your experience seems extreme - going from marginal to tack driver.

Take a bronze brush and some good solvent and scrub the crap out of that thing. You'll be shocked at the crap that comes out!

I use Shooters Choice solvent most of the time but brake cleaner (no residue stuff) has been used at times with the really nasty ones. Sweets for the copper.

Trappst,

I just reread your post and noticed that you are recommending seating the bullets way off the lands. Is that by necessity due to the dimensions of the chamber/bullet or is that the sweet spot for you? How far is way off?

I don't have any real world experience with this yet, but have read that alot of people prefer to almost touch the lands with their handloads.

Tim

Savage makes a great, usually very accurate rifle, but the barrels are a bit rough inside when new. An aftermarket barrel is often very good from the start but factory barrels are often not their best when new. Putting 75 to 100 rounds through the barrel often helps smooth it out and they often settle down. I will clean a new factory rifle with JB bore paste (a very mild abrasive) to speed the process. Use a bore guide and a quality cleaning rod.

The Savages tend to shoot really well due to the floating bolt head and factory pillar bedding. That being said, not all Savage varmint rifles are 1/2 MOA rifles as they leave the factory. I have 4 of them. 3 of them were great after nothing but a shooting break in. The 4th rifle took a little more work before it shot well.

Don't discount that part of the problem might be the nut behind the bolt (the shooter). No offense intended but I don't know your experience level. For example - on a good day I have shot several 5 shot 1/4 inch groups but on a bad day I have had trouble holding 1 inch groups with the same gun. Effects from how much sleep I had, amount of caffeine, mental attitude, weather conditions,.... Find someone with a good bench rest set up that is shooting good groups and ask for a little help. Have them look over the rifle / check the bedding bolt torque / have them shoot a group to see what the rifle is capable of.

If you have not bought dies yet I highly recommend Lee collet neck sizing dies. This is a product that is inexpensive but produces very, very good ammo!

Best of luck,
Keith

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Is that by necessity due to the dimensions of the chamber/bullet or is that the sweet spot for you? How far is way off?

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A bit of both. The 204 I had (sold it cause I don't care for the case) had a long throat but the thing preferred bullets seated way off the lands. Stand by for the OAL...gotta fire up the other computer that has all my reloading data on it. ;D

(elevator music playing)

sorry, it's an old and slow computer! Well gosh, I just used the factory OAL of 2.250" with a 32g Sierra. My best load was 28.4g Benchmark, Rem 7.5BR primer in Hornady brass. My notes don't show how far off that is but if I recall the 32's won't even reach the rifling without falling out of the case neck. **This is a hot load but showed no pressure signs in my rifle....work up to it, blah, blah!

Same experience as Trappst.

Both of my 204's prefer any bullet to be 0.050" off the lands....up to 0.070" for the best accuracy.

Keith,

Thanks again for sharing your experiences with your Savage rifles. I will do some more shooting and see what happens. I am definetaly short on experience when it comes to shooting tight groups with this gun. When I was younger I was obsessed with getting my Marlin 880 (.22 lr) to shoot good groups and spent alot of time doing it, but this is whole new ballgame. I do have a good set of bags and was shooting off of a solid bench though.

I'm excited about getting into reloading and have read alot of good things about the Lee collet neck sizing dies along with the cast iron press. Thanks for the recommendation.

Is there a recommended torque spec for the bolts holding the action? After taking the rifle apart I went about finger snug plus a quarter turn.


Trappst,

Thanks for the reloading data and cleaning recommendations.


I'll report back after I get a chance to shoot some more and do some reloading.

I sincerely appreciate the help.

Tim

Forgot to mention, the 0.050 to 0.070 off the lands is somewhat of a 204 specific item. Can work in other calibers, but the 204's seem to like a jump to the lands.

I have a torque screw driver but I don't bother using it on my pillar bedded rifles. I snug the forward bolt tight, probably 45 to 60 inch pounds. This is pretty tight with a small screwdriver handle or allen wrench. The rear bolt is less critical and I don't tighten it nearly as tight - 1/2 to 3/4 what I torque the forward one. If the rifle is properly bedded you can usually feel the front bolt making contact and then it gets tight without having to turn the bolt very much more due to the pillar bedding as you are not compressing / crushing any wood. If not you may have a bedding problem. The rear tang on a Savage is supposed to be free floated.

The 204 throats are typically cut very, very long! I was told this was to keep pressures down. Pressures can spike very fast when you are talking about the small bores. I started with one caliber's worth (approximately .2 inches) of bullet seated in the case and never looked back. It was not near the lands in my rifles and it shot well so I never played with seating depth. I sacrificed a case by FL resizing and then splitting the neck. Seat the bullet slightly into the case, measure COAL, and chamber it. Remove it and check COAL, compare to the original measurement. Hint - when removing it do not allow the ejector to drag the cartridge through the chamber. Put your finger against the cartridge to keep it centered in the chamber as you extract it. I could not reach the throat on my 204 rifles when they were new. I would check your throat, but I would not recommend trying to jamb a 204 in the lands.

Varmint hunters understand that "speed kills". Try H4895, 39 gr BK, CCI BR4 or MAGNUM primers. Near full case w/o compressing the powder. Good accuracy and fast.

Do not use standard primers with the 204! You need a heavier (thicker) primer cup to prevent piercing the primers! BR4 and MAgnum primers have thicker cups.

Keith

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Originally Posted by kkeene

Do not use standard primers with the 204! You need a heavier (thicker) primer cup to prevent piercing the primers! BR4 and MAgnum primers have thicker cups.

Keith

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..Never had a problem with 205M's with 30.1grs of BLC under a 39gr Sie...

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What I've done the the rifle so far:
When I got it home I took the rifle down to action and barrel only and chucked the action in a lathe, with the barrel in a steady rest. I noticed at the time that the bore was not concentric to the outer contour of the barrel. It wasn't off alot, maybe .005 - .006 TIR, so I didn't worry about it. I recut a flat recessed crown, and then carefully deburred the bore exit by hand with a 90 degree pointed steel rod and some lapping compound.

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Always best to try test shooting a new rifle first before doing any work on it gives you a base as to accuracy. I have 2 Savage rifles in 223 they both will shoot under .500 if I do my part one prefers bullet seated near the lands the other not, one required a break in period of about 100 rounds the other out of the box, its a mixed bag you never know. One thing about Savage if it dont work they fix however not sure with work you did on barrel if that would be the case.

I've had good luck cleaning w hoppe's #9 solvent and hoppe's BR copper solvent. I use those in no particular order, then follow up w kroil and then some rem oil if it's going to sit for awhile. I favor nylon brushes because the bronze ones can give you a false reading if you're using a solvent that turns blue when in contact w copper.

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Originally Posted by trappst

Take a bronze brush and some good solvent and scrub the crap out of that thing. You'll be shocked at the crap that comes out!

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Originally Posted by dcloco

Same experience as Trappst.
Both of my 204's prefer any bullet to be 0.050" off the lands....up to 0.070" for the best accuracy.

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I agree 100% with both of these gentlemen. Hoppes, and even Hoppes benchrest is a poor bore solvent. (Everyone complains that it is not the same as the old Hoppes, and it is not) You will never get the carbon out with it using a patch or even a nylon brush. There are so many good solvents out there, just look. Carbon is hard stuff and it needs a good solvent and a good bronze brush to remove it. I like GM Top Engine Cleaner, the original formula they no longer make, but you may find some old stock at your GM dealer, the new stuff is suppose to work as good but the cost went way up on it. Shooters choice is good and if I remember right one of the listed ingredients is GM top engine cleaner. You need to let this stuff sit in the bore and loosen up the carbon.

My experience with the 204 is this, They do carbon up faster than other rounds. The worse problem I found was there are few good bronze brushes for a 20 cal, the only ones I found that lasted more than a few strokes was Tipton. The other thing I have found with Factory Savage barrel is they shoot better dirty. When you clean them the groups open up until you get around 10 to 20 rounds down the tube.

My 204 would shoot lights out with many .3 area 5 shout 100 yard groups. (with either 32 or 39 gr rounds) The way I had best success with it was I would hardly clean it, actually the only time I did clean it was when it started to key hole rounds. When it would key hole I would give it a thorough scrubbing with JB bore past. It would take about 10 rounds for the barrel to season in and then it started shooting lights out again. This barrel even had a bad factory defect, it had a scratch that ran down the entire length of the barrel in one of the groves. Never affected it one bit.

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Originally Posted by 1Shot

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Originally Posted by kkeene

Do not use standard primers with the 204! You need a heavier (thicker) primer cup to prevent piercing the primers! BR4 and MAgnum primers have thicker cups.

Keith

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..Never had a problem with 205M's with 30.1grs of BLC under a 39gr Sie...

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205Ms are thicker than standard primers, but not as thick as magnums. I believe it goes std.=0.019", 205M only=0.0225", mag. or br.=0.025"........uh, I think?

Haven't had a problem w either of the solvents I stated. The BR Hoppes is much stronger though. It'll run you out of the room if you're not careful. People put way too much emphasis on cleaning techniques and solvents; pick your poison and go with it. A bronze brush and JB will surely remove the most fouling, and it'll remove the most steel as well. That's the reason I steer clear of it unless I've already tried everything else. To each his own.

I have found that practically all of my factory barrels shoot better dirty. They're wild after a good cleaning and especially so if I oiled the bore before storage.

Thanks for the cleaning suggestions from everyone. Maybe this weekend I'll find time to get something a little more aggressive than the hoppes elite. I think I'll try to track down some sweet's and get a brush.

Oldguy, I wouldn't have touched the rifle before shooting it, but the ding in the crown was too much to ignore.

Listening to you guys has got me really excited about doing some reloading. Another question though, all of the endorsements for seating .05-.07 off the lands has me wondering where the factory ammo is putting me in this respect. Any guesses?

BTW, great forum you have here. I never dreamed I'd get this many responses in such a short amount of time. I had no idea there were so many Savage enthusiasts.

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Oldguy, I wouldn't have touched the rifle before shooting it, but the ding in the crown was too much to ignore.

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I fully understand and it wasn't meant as criticism but passing along my mistakes I've learned over 50 years
of shooting, I simply bring them home, clean and shoot I won't remove them from stock(rifle) prior to shooting, in my opinion quality control across the board is not the best in modern manufacturing and I
like to know if mistakes are mine or the manufacturer.

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Originally Posted by HOEING8

Thanks for the cleaning suggestions from everyone. Maybe this weekend I'll find time to get something a little more aggressive than the hoppes elite. I think I'll try to track down some sweet's and get a brush.

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If you get Sweets make sure you stop by the auto parts store and get a aerosol can of break clean or carb cleaner. Sweets (And other coper cleaners) are hard on brushes. (You may want to use it outside or when the wife is out, it has a take your breath away ammonia smell) After brushing with them I take the brush and spray it out good with the carb cleaner. My brushes last a long time doing this. I would still say you need something to cut the carbon, Sweets is not the best on it. I would look for RB17, TM solution, shooters choice, wipe outs carb out, or something to get the carbon. I like RB17.

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Originally Posted by steveinwv

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Originally Posted by 1Shot

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Originally Posted by kkeene

Do not use standard primers with the 204! You need a heavier (thicker) primer cup to prevent piercing the primers! BR4 and MAgnum primers have thicker cups.

Keith

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..Never had a problem with 205M's with 30.1grs of BLC under a 39gr Sie...

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205Ms are thicker than standard primers, but not as thick as magnums. I believe it goes std.=0.019", 205M only=0.0225", mag. or br.=0.025"........uh, I think?

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Clahoun did the work for us:

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php


Manufacturer Number A B C
Cup Cup Cup
Thickness Diameter Height

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Small Rifle
CCI 400 .020" .1753" .109"
450 .025" .1750" .113"
BR4 .025" .1755" .109"
Federal 200 .019" .1757" .111"
205M .0225" .1744" .1075"
Remington 6 1/2 .020" .1753" .109"
7 1/2 .025" .1752" .110"
Winchester SR .021" .1750" .109"
Large Rifle
CCI 200 .027" .2112" .118"
250 .027" .2113" .118"
Federal 210 .027" .2120" .117"
215 -- -- --
Remington 9 1/2 .027" .2100" .119"
Winchester LR .027" .2114" .121"
Mag .027" .2114" .121"

A little update.

Made it to Bass Pro and picked up some shooter's choice MC#7 and their extra strength copper remover. Brushed the bore using the MC7 and a bronze brush, then followed with some patches of copper remover. I got next nothing extra out of the barrel. It appears that it was pretty clean before. I went ahead and pushed my lead slug through the tight spot (took a little extra oomph but it went through). Then I drove another slug in just short of the tight spot, took them out and measured both. They both measured in the .2036-.2038 range, depending on which groove I was measuring and how I held my mouth when I measured. So even though there is a tight spot, I'm no longer very concerned about it.

I also ordered some 39gr BK's, Remington 7.5's, and a couple lb's of VV N530. A Lee cast iron classic and some collet neck sizing dies (along with a bunch of other nickel and dime stuff that really adds up!) are also on their way.

I'll report back as soon as I have some results!

Tim

It's been awhile, but I thought I'd post an update. I haven't had a chance to shoot any handloads yet, but in the meantime I decided to bed the action of my rifle. I noticed that tightening the front action screw would lift the tang a noticeable amount. Tightening the rear screw would then pull it back down. I don't know if this was contributing to my accuracy problems but it couldn't hurt to have it fixed. While researching how to bed a Savage action I came across a writeup of a rifle on 6mmbr that had a barrel block. Looked like a good idea to me so I decided to make one for my rifle. Here are the results.

[img width=600 height=343]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/hoeing8/Barrel%20Block/BARRELBLOCK002.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 height=450]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/hoeing8/Barrel%20Block/BARRELBLOCK004.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 height=450]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/hoeing8/Barrel%20Block/BARRELBLOCK006.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 height=450]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/hoeing8/Barrel%20Block/BARRELBLOCK007.jpg[/img]


I don't know if this was a good way to go about it, but I'll let you know after I get a chance to shoot it.

Which Gander did you get this from?

when you aligned the barrel in the steady rest the run out was .006" - .008" tir was that ID or OD. the bore has to run true and the crown must be square to the bore if the id is running out the face is not square. There's no forgiveness in that area.

How did you break in the barrel?

I'd double check the the forward pillar and be sure its not below the wood at all. It must come in contact with the bottom of the action. Torque in my opinion also make a big difference. Using a cigarette paper (rolling paper) see if you have .003" - .004" clearance all around the tang and along side the action, it should be free. The tang can bind at the grip and thats NO GOOD. Check it again after you torque it. #30lbs works for me.

I got the gun at the Gander on the north side of Indy.

The OD of the barrel ran true in the steady rest, so the crown I cut is square to and concentric with the OD. I stuck a gage pin in the bore after indicating in the OD and saw the runout there. The bore isn't concentric with the OD from the factory. I put a flat, recessed crown on it to minimize the error.

I guess you guys are being polite by not telling me how awful it looks?

Just think - no one will ever accuse my Savage of being ugly because of the barrel nut!