Bolt is sticking like you would not believe.

I own a Weather Warrior 16/116 FHSAK in .308. Accustock and accutrigger. I have not broken the gun in - shot less about 100 rnds or so. When I shoot MagTech (crap ammo I know) i can get off between 3-8 rnds and then the bolt jams like you cant imagine. At first I can lift the bolt handle but to pull back the bolt i often need a screwdriver or something to pry it open. I am being very, very careful when i do this. After it initially jams, i can get about 2 more rounds through and then it is totally sealed. I have to wait for it to cool down.

In two days I am going to the range with it and I am going to shoot some better quality ammo along with some reloaded ammo i did myself. I did want to come here first though and ask what feedback people had for me. Is it really a case where this gun, being as precise as it is, simply will not cycle crap ammo?

I am not trying to be hasty here but I am very disappointed as my modest understanding of bolt action rifles is they are pretty much failsafe guns. And I cant shoot more than 10 rnds before the gun becomes a $700 club.

I'd truly appreciate any feedback - especially if you've experienced this yourself.

Is the bore and CHAMBER CLEAN and DRY?

I heard mag tech is pretty hot ammo....Does it do the same thing with other ammo..

Are the case heads showing bright shinny marks on them......Way too hot

I keep my guns meticulously clean so assuredly that is not an issue.

As far as the ammo being hot - i cannot comment on that. I know it is cheap. And that might be the issue. I suspect highly that it is. The Savage is a very accurate gun and this ammo is s***. I wonder if it only wants to be fed high quality ammo.

I am going to shoot it in two days and I am going to shoot four types of ammo through it - three high(ish) quality ammo brands and then my reloaded ammo - but I am using brand new brass, etc.

So with that info, i'll look forward to your responses.

Is there oil or cleaning fluids in the chamber? That can really drive up pressure.

I appreciate the clarifying questions but let me resolutely state that the gun as far as maintenance-based issues is completely free of any user defects. While i am not in the least bit pompous, I do have over 12 guns (not that this is any incredible number) and I am well versed in their care and maintenance. The likelihood that there is anything going on due to dirt, over oiling, etc is simply not a possibility.

Here's one possibility....If lifting the bolt handle is ok, but pulling back is hard, you could have an issue with primary extraction. Do a search for 'primary extraction' and see what you can find. Apparently, according to Sharpshooter, there are some bolt handles that are out of spec and don't provide the camming action against the rear baffle needed for proper primary extraction.

It is probably the brass...
I had a similar problem using federal ammo, their cheapest for my 7mm rm. I used that ammo to get in target and get an idea on how was the gun shooting. I did have a few instances where just like you, I could raise the bolt handle but will not back the bolt and I have to tap it hard with my hand. This is also a new gun from SSS, action trued, brux barrel. etc so I dont think I have an issue with primary extraction. I then shoot my reloads( working a load for this rig). The brass is Winchester and I had 0 troubles. I reloaded the fire-formed brass, both federal and Winchester. I only necked sized with a lee die. When I went to the range most of the federal brass will not chamber unless forced. The first 2 I thought I had just messed the oal and the bullet was being jammed in the lands.... It was easy to pull the bolt handle up but a biatch to pull the bolt back. After clearing the second jam I marked my bullet and case to see if that was the problem... well, without firing the cartridge it was jammed bad and when I cleared the jammed there was no sign of the lands touching the bullet or the bullet moving at all. An old timer told me that I was having this problem because of the tight tolerances in my custom barrel. I chambered (bot not fired) all of my Winchester reloads and I had no problems with it.
Went home, pull the bullets and the powder, did a full size (without mandrel) on the federal brass and then they did cycle with no problem even after fired. Needless to say, I will not use that federal brass unless fully sized... Use another brand of ammo and see if the trouble replicates...

Thanks Nandy. Admittedly, i was kind of hoping someone would say this as it is what my other research has suggested. I'm going to buy some good, but not match grade ammo (who can afford that for plinking?) and see how it goes on Thursday. God I hope it works. If I have a problem with my gun...then i'm screwed. Savage customer service has been absolutely horrible. And, based on that alone, I dont think I'll ever buy one of their guns again. Of course, maybe it is dumb of me to say this on a Savage forum and, make no mistake, I am aware that for the money this gun of mine is likely the most accurate rifle on the market, but so far owning it has not been very pleasant.

I wished you experience with savage would have been better. Maybe the problem is in fact the brass and then the blame will lay elsewhere. I am sure that if you become a paid member you will find someone to take this gun off your hands and not loose much if any.
Watch this video before you go shoot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-1dd...ature=youtu.be

Now, if you still get your bolt stuck do what he is doing. If the bolt opens easily as in the video then your problem is the rifle, more specifically the bolt handle. When he places that stick between the baffle and the bolt handle ramps in effect it does increase the primary extraction in the rifle to make it work on those rifles that the bolt is not up to specs. Im not sure what he is using to do this. I thought it was a feeler gauge but it looks too slim. Maybe a small fathead screwdriver will work. Make sure you place it between the ramps or the test will not be as successful.
An after market handle will definitely fix a primary extraction problem. You can also pursue it with savage but you will probably have to send the rifle to them.
If the bolt will not come open then your problem lays elsewhere including the brass.
Hope this help.

I think you're jumping the gun (pun intended) on blaming the gun. As was mentioned there are soooooo many ammo companies out there and some of them are crap. Ya get what ya pay for. Do not judge ANY brand of rifle from one brand of ammo, and cheap ammo at that. It makes no difference to me if you shoot Savage, Remington Winchester or whatever, just give the rifle a fair chance before you start dissing their customer service.

If you called them with this same complaint, it's no surprise they didn't seem helpful to you, but we do not know how you were to them. When dealing with customer services, I have found more often than not, THEY react to how I first begin the conversation.

Check the torque on your action bolts too, and for marks on the bolt.
Most likely is the poor quality loads.

Nandy, that is EXACTLY what happens to my gun and exactly what I have to do to open it. Thank you for showing me this. Like I said, tomorrow I will go shoot some very nice ammo and see what happens.

To handirifle, that is utterly unfair of you to suggest that. Ever heard the saying "you attract more flies with honey than vinegar?" Only a true fool calls into a place all pissed off and expecting any help and I most certainly did not. I opened with the fact that my overall family owns a number of savages, though most of them old, that I did a staggering amount of research as to which bolt action rifle I should get under $1000 and that I was so very, very pleased to purchase a savage. I complimented how there gun shoots, etc. Never once did I say anything rude or level any accusations. I explained my situation and asked for help. The first lady said this:

1. What is the serial number on your gun? (I didnt have it). Then she said, "well, I'VE never heard of this kind of problem so it is probably something you are doing. What kind of ammo are you shooting?" I told her "well...a factory load should cause you no problems. I guess you'll have to send it in." That is -it-. Now look, I dont expect to be blown by the people I interact with. But look, there was never a "sorry to hear about your problem" or "we'll make sure it gets fixed" or "here is how we can help you best". I dont mind what she said but there should have been some degree of customer care there. It is not like I am picking up $10 toy, I have a $700 gun - not a thing to brag about but sufficient that I should at least be treated with respect.

2. The second time I called apparently they routed me to a mentally deficient employee. I had the serial number but he couldnt tell me if it was still under warrant. ok, fine. How do I send it in says I. "Uh...I'm not sure. I know you take it to UPS". Okay....that makes sense. What do I ship it in? If it gets damaged or stolen that would be on me, right? "uh...well. you could put it in a box." Me: .... Uh....ok...ay. What about a gun case? That would protect the gun. "I guess you could do that". And that was the end of that. Again, NEVER a word of "sorry to hear that", etc.

If anyone thinks this is -good- customer relations, then please, become a customer of mine. I know I can get away with anything. Is it enough that I ran to a corner and cried about it? No, not really. I'm just disappointed. But IF, after I fire quality ammo through this gun, i find that it still jams - I'm done. I dont say this to be cute and I know that there is a level, albeit a small one, of disrespect in coming to a Savage forum and saying all this - but I dont think a single one of us hasnt had some experience in their life like it. And it was probably enough to break trust with the brand.

Assuredly, I want to love this gun. My god it is accurate. The trigger is so sweet. And if it was the ammo that was wrong - that is ALL on me. You dont put 85 octane in a Ferrari and expect it to go right, you dont put crap in a precision rifle like my Savage and expect good things either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nandy

...if you still get your bolt stuck do what he is doing. If the bolt opens easily as in the video then your problem is the rifle, more specifically the bolt handle. ...An after market handle will definitely fix a primary extraction problem.
Hope this help.

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Based on your comments, it is probable that you have a primary extraction issue or perhaps a rough chamber. Searching the forum for posts about problems similar to yours, those two issues seem to usually be the culprits.

A. If the issue is primary extraction, getting a new bolt handle will fix the issue if the new handle is correctly formed. This could be done through Savage or through an aftermarket supplier.

B. Here is something else you can do, bypassing Savage, but requiring at least a few tools and the appropriate skill. http://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?144-Fixing-Weak-Primary-Extraction

C. If it is a rough chamber, there might be marks on your brass (You could try putting sharpie all over the brass, safely chambering and extracting the round and then see if there were any scratches that might be caused by a rough chamber.) The fix would likely be either that you could send the rifle back to Savage and try to get them to replace the barrel or polish the chamber, or perhaps you (or a local gunsmith) could polish the chamber.

If you talk to the Savage customer service folks again, you could ask if they will send you a prepaid shipping label. It can't hurt to ask. Also, one of my techniques for getting good customer service is that I always make it a point to ask the Customer Service Representative to repeat their name and/or ID number at the beginning of the conversation. That lets them know that I am taking notes (which I am) and can provide their superiors with feedback on their performance (which I do on a regular basis...both good and bad) If things go badly, don't hesitate to ask to speak to a supervisor. You may be dealing with a brand new person (or perhaps an idiot - even good companies can hire buffoons from time to time).

Please don't give up. We're trying to help you. :biggrin-new:

Thomae, really appreciate it here. I want to keep this gun - there simply isnt anything else out there this accurate at this price point. We'll see what happens b/c the alternative is that I trade it in, get the $300 that I was offered for it, cough up $500 more to get a Ruger M77 Mark II and get a less accurate gun. Though I do love the appearance of the Ruger.

One other thing I desperately want to do is see if there is a Revolution Stock that fits my Savage Weather Warrior 16/116 FHSAK w/ accustock and accutrigger. I started a thread in the aftermarket stock forum but havent had any traction there. If anyone can comment on that here, you would find me to be very appreciateive.

One last word - I am very passionate and therefore often defensive about the things I love. I hope that I have not come in here pissing people off. I thought handirifle's comment was in a little bad form, but even then - not a big deal at all. I am just left reeling - and I truly mean that - as traditionally any facet of firearms is surrounded by some of the most polite people you will ever hope to meet. Call Kangaroo Carry concealed holsters. You can talk to their president - a truly nice guy. Walk around Cheaper than Dirt in Texas. Everyone says "excuse me" and is in a good mood. Go to your local gun range and most of them are full of people who will chat you up nicely.

Or call Savage and get two people who show absolutely NO INTEREST in generating a solution for me, dont give a **** whether or not my situation is fixed, and even start off the whole thing by firing accusations at me. This is what has got me so incredibly bent out of shape. God I hope this gun gets fixed (it is sounding more and more like a bolt handle situation) and if it does I will be quite pleased to retain this gun. If it doesnt - hell, I'd be happy to throw my gun in the river out of spite and go buy a Ruger.

If I do, I'll tell you guys which river.

Personally I feel Savage should adress the bolt issue and replace all the defective ones out there, you should not have to spend a dime(let alone $50-60)to fix thier problem. On the other hand some of the aftermarket bolt handles are far nicer than the stock ones.If your gun was blued I would offer you a handle for the cost of shipping to keep you on the happy side of the brotherhood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DreamTheater

I'm just disappointed. But IF, after I fire quality ammo through this gun, i find that it still jams - I'm done. I dont say this to be cute and I know that there is a level, albeit a small one, of disrespect in coming to a Savage forum and saying all this - but I dont think a single one of us hasnt had some experience in their life like it. And it was probably enough to break trust with the brand.

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Ok, I stopped back against my better judgement, but .....

Your not the first to experience this issue and I'm pretty sure you won't be the last! Trust me , I'm 100% on your side! It isn't my first parade with primary extraction issues, Savage or those other "Off Brands"!

My suggestion, contact Joe DeGrande (jdegrande@savagearms.com) and POLITELY explain the problem your having. Just tell him your action has a primary extraction issue, the lack of it and/or it's timing. My best guess he'll have you send the rifle back to be checked and the PE corrected.

BTW, where are you located? If your any where near the Lancaster-Harrisburg Pa area I'll be more than happy to check the rifle for you.

Bill

I'm telling you it is that **** ammo...My son shot some in his savage 223 and the cases all split around the web..I told him to throw it away befor someone gets hurt..Mag Tech is noted for hot ammo...If you aint careful your gomma blow the ejector pin way back in and then what you gonna do....It is the ammo.Stop using the **** stuff.

Is the ammo clear coated? Sounds like the ammo is glued in from the heat. Change ammo. Dont panic.

You might try polishing the chamber with some very fine steel wool wrapped around a chamber brush. I oil the steel wool and chuck a short cleaning rod in a SLOW drill motor. A variable speed motor works best. Keep the brush moving in and out, and don't overdo it. It will remove any plastic/polymer coating left by imported ammo. I suspect this may correct your problem, and would stress that once you have this invisible guck in a chamber, anything is going to stick. It's worth a try since there is no cost or risk involved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by criticalbass

You might try polishing the chamber with some very fine steel wool wrapped around a chamber brush. I oil the steel wool and chuck a short cleaning rod in a SLOW drill motor. A variable speed motor works best. Keep the brush moving in and out, and don't overdo it. It will remove any plastic/polymer coating left by imported ammo. I suspect this may correct your problem, and would stress that once you have this invisible guck in a chamber, anything is going to stick. It's worth a try since there is no cost or risk involved.

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May I suggest that if you do this, you use Bronze wool instead of steel wool?

It is available at Home Depot(http://www.homedepot.com/buy/homax-f...l#.UFyO71EQdAU)and other woodworking and hardware stores.

Steel wool, since it is steel and likely approximately equal to the hardness of the chamber steel, will put score marks/scratches (albeit, very fine ones) inside the chamber (think of the rub marks steel wool leaves on metal pots and pans). The marks may be very fine, but they will be there and will collect dirt, carbon, and whatever.

Bronze wool, on the other hand, is softer than steel so it won't actually scratch it. It is hard enough to remove whatever gunk might have been deposited on the inside of the chamber, but not hard enough to damage it.

I am hesitant to do any polishing and such myself. I, while confident in my gun cleaning and maintenance, am not so gifted in any areas outside of this. In fact, I utterly shocked myself when i was abel to install a number of components in my Ruger 10/22 like a comtetition hammer, trigger, etc.

Sadly, oh so sadly, I did not get to go shooting yesterday. But I have sent off a courteous letter to Savage and I'll see if I get a response. I will try hard in the near future to shoot some other ammo. Thanks for the continued responses.

Oh, and in closing, i would be insanely appreciative if anyone could answer my question about the Revolution Stocks fitting my particular rifle. I've sent Revolution an email asking them and, as many retailers of today, they wont answer me and make me work my ass off to give them my money.

anyone who does not answer an e mail from me about anything does not get my business...But I do know that
you have to give some places at least a week to receive your letterand to answer...Good luck..I am courios if it does the same thing with other ammo.Get a box of REM. or Win..

You don't really need to go to the range to check function. Just run a few rounds through it into the dirt......

Yeah - i live in the middle of Omaha though. I can probably try this out soon enough though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rrflyer

You don't really need to go to the range to check function. Just run a few rounds through it into the dirt......

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Noise pollution? Get cops called on?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mattm0812

Noise pollution? Get cops called on?

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Depends where you live

Before you blame Savage you need to fire some American made ammunition, Winchester, Remington, etc. The ammunition you are having problems with is made in Brazil and the cases may be on the soft side or be over pressure. A cartridge case should be hardest at the base and transition to the softest at the neck shoulder junction.

You should try and get base measurements before and after firing to see if the case is expanding in excess at the base extractor area.

Below is a exaggerated image that is caused by over pressure or soft brass.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...edp51/ann1.gif

Below is normal pressure and brass at the correct hardness.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...p51/deform.gif

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...sshardness.jpg

yes...what he said above..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Axtell3

Check the torque on your action bolts too, and for marks on the bolt.
Most likely is the poor quality loads.

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The 2 bolts going through the stock can definitley interfere with the bolt. Could be as heat is generated the metal makes more contact??? Just putting it out there as my front bolt (screw) in my new stock was impeding the bolt action from moving. had to use a shorter screw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BillPa

Ok, I stopped back against my better judgement, but .....

Your not the first to experience this issue and I'm pretty sure you won't be the last! Trust me , I'm 100% on your side! It isn't my first parade with primary extraction issues, Savage or those other "Off Brands"!

My suggestion, contact Joe DeGrande (jdegrande@savagearms.com) and POLITELY explain the problem your having. Just tell him your action has a primary extraction issue, the lack of it and/or it's timing. My best guess he'll have you send the rifle back to be checked and the PE corrected.

BTW, where are you located? If your any where near the Lancaster-Harrisburg Pa area I'll be more than happy to check the rifle for you.

Bill

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Bill,

It is nice to see you come back to help those here on the forum.

The forum has changed quite a bit in the last few years, but I remember the time you took out of your day to be helpful to others.

Glad to see a familiar face back.

Well, I have a significant update. I sent my letter into Savage, to the attention of Ron Coburn and I got a call this morning from Joe DeGrande. Joe was amazing. First he apologized for the treatment I had on the phone - which meant a lot to me. It was so strange to me that I got that treatment from Savage people because there is just no way that is their norm. He then asked me to send my gun in at their expense and they'll check it out.

Needless to say, my confidence has been fully restored and it is my absolute belief that my gun will be returned to me either fixed or with confirmation that it was the ammo I was shooting (though I do not contend that the ammo was crap and should not be fired again).

Also, I did get a phone call back from Revolution Stocks and it looks like I'll be good to order one of theirs.

I am quite pleased and I feel quite compelled to share my positive experience with Savage and I would now, again, happily refer a friend to them.

I'll update Savage's findings on my gun after I get it back.

Good news, please do keep us posted, I like to hear the end on this one...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DreamTheater

Well, I have a significant update. I sent my letter into Savage, to the attention of Ron Coburn and I got a call this morning from Joe LeGrande. Joe was amazing.

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Now you understand why I suggested contacting Joe in my previous post.


Bill

So Joe got my gun and has been amazing to work with. He contacted me himself after he and Savage's master gunsmith shot my gun with high quality ammo. He reported that it worked great and that there was no issue with the bolt sticking. I asked him to simply try some Magtech just for kicks and giggles and he said that they are no longer making it. While I admit that I would like to shoot my gun myself with high quality ammo before I put this thing to rest until the End of Time, I simultaneously know that Joe has forgotten more about guns than I ever will and I do not doubt his feedback on my gun at all.

So at this point I did want to come here, post what the findings were and share some thoughts (as I climb upon my soap box)

First off, thank you to all that posted. You were right about the Magtech. I can say that I bought it in good faith though simultaneously trying to save a little bit as all i was doing was plinking. And it is too bad plinking is so pricey now. But for me to have expected that I could put a turd in such a precision instrument and get any sort of performance out of it was a bit dumb...maybe a lot dumb.

Due to the fact that Savage is such a great gun, that I did not know Magtech was such crap, and that I had thought i understood bolt actions to be about as simple an approach to firearms as is possible, I could not believe that such a firearm could have issues. And i reacted very strongly to my disappointment. So any hyperbole or negativity I shared about Savage here I retract and apologize for. Assuredly when queried about my rifle, I will quite proudly state that it is a Savage and likely the most if not at least one of the most accurate rifles out of the box for $1000 or less.

I should get my gun back by mid-November at latest and will shoot it at the end of the month. I'm excited to do so with high quality ammo and to see what the gun is really capable of.

So again, thank you for your contributions and please, if you see any other noobs show up around here griping like I did, please send them my way and I'll kindly explain that you wouldnt buy a Ferrari and put 87 octane in it and you wouldnt buy a Savage and put crap ammo in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DreamTheater

So any hyperbole or negativity I shared about Savage here I retract and apologize for.

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No apology necessary.

Your not the first nor will you be the last, but to your credit you have taken the time and made effort to find a solution rather than plaster posts all over the net and do nothing but complain.

Now, shut up and go shoot some tiny groups!:p

Good luck!

Bill

Mr. Theater,

You did not think it was the ammo, what makes you think the next guy will :)

Were it me, the first thing I'd do is stop firing the Mag Tech.

Might seem simplistic, but if other brands of cartridges are NOT sticking; you can figure it out from there.

FYI, the next probable course of events from your rifle with that ammo are ones you do not want to experience. That sticky extraction doesn't seem to be a rifle problem -- the other brands of cartridges work fine -- but a pressure problem. (hard bolt lift, or difficult extraction indicate dangerously high pressure)

They're your hands, and eyes - do as you see fit.

(as others have mentioned, make sure your chamber is DRY {no oil}).

I had this happen with various ammo and plenty of hand loads. I won't have mine out to the range anytime soon but when I finally do get out there I will have a shim in place to help this. I will also try swapping a new bolt handle. I just got a new one in for my 110 so I can take a comparison picture of it up against my old one in my 10FCPHS that is having the problem. Stay tuned.

Well thats disappointing, I picked up a box of Magtech a few weeks ago-$35 for 50 bullets was impossible to pass up. THEN I read several reviews that people with Savages had pretty much the same issue across the board with this ammo. Im just glad I didnt go right to the range with it and end up thinking my gun had something wrong with it!