My new AXIS .308 Bolt Problem..

Let me apologize from the get-go for being long winded here, but this problem has gone on for two+ months now.
I bought this .308 because I have a .223 AXIS that is a tack driver.

On July 02 I purchased a Savage Axis in .308 caliber. The next day I took it to the range to sight in the scope I mounted. All rounds shot were store bought and not re-load. No sure of how many rounds were fired when I noticed the bolt was getting hard to open and eject the brass. After the second brass that seemed hard to eject I decided I would not shot anymore and contact Savage Arms. I took the gun home and proceeded to clean the gun when I noticed where the firing pin was it looked like chips in the face of the bolt, and a scratch going length ways of the lug. I also noticed it had “Smiley Faces” on the head of the brass. I boxed it up and sent it back to Savage Arms on the 16th of July.

This is the chips I found on the bolt face:
http://www.nettally.com/kwd/BoltFace2_308.JPG

And the “Smiley Faces” :
http://www.nettally.com/kwd/308_primer.JPG



They sent it back a week later and said they replaced bolt parts (don’t know what) and polished the bolt where the craters were, and test fired it.
I took it to the range and was sighting in my scope again and to try out two different brands of ammo and still have a hard bolt issue as well as the brass on the primmer end has a "Smiley face" which I understand is a head space problem.

Packed it back up and sent it to Savage for them to look at it again and to check the head space. I also included two of the three rounds I fired at the range. One being an S&B brand and the other being a Federal brand brass for their inspection

Got my .308 back from Savage on 9-13. The invoice they sent back was this:
1) Repair
2) Function Fired - PASSED
3) Head Space - GOOD
4) Polished Chamber
They also sent me the 4 rounds they Function Fired with and all 4 had the smiley face on the brass just as mine did.

Decided to take it to the range and sight in the scope and after doing so and about 10 rounds later the bolt would lift, but I thought at one time I would not get the bolt to open!! All brass has the Smiley Face on them also.

Have you any thoughts on this?

I don't know much about these bolt action rifles--but if I saw something like that on one of my AR's I'd freak and cease using it and have it professionally checked.

That looks alot like one of my bolt head / faces when it blew a primer out the wrong way & burned the bolt face with a permanant impression of the primer. I had bought a bag of Win brass & I believe it was defective or the primer pocket was too wide in diameter. It took quite a while to clean the soot out of the bolt & polish the bolt face to get the pitting out of it. It never did clean up 100%. The dark discoloration can be cleaned up with a little Hoppe's No. 9, a Q-Tip, a little steel wool & some elbow grease. Wrap a small piece of steel wool around the Q-tip cotton, dip it in the Hoppe's and polish it up nicely. The part that's leaving an impression in primers is pretty bad. The only remedy I can think of for that is to replace the bolt head. They cost around 25 bucks or so and pretty easy to swap out. If you do a swap out there's no need to do the other stuff.
I really don't think Savage will be of any help since that looks like a bad primer or loose brass let a primer leak or something case head / primer related. You'd be better off to buy a new bolt head & swap it out yourself.
You can try cleaning it up & polishing it but I think it's too far gone for that based on your photos.

The lift issue - did you apply a little lube where necessary? It may need to be shot a couple million times to break in & loosen up. I have an Edge that has a pretty tight bolt lift. Its starting to loosen up since its been used every weekend.

I'm sure some of the other guys will chime in here with their input. Good luck with it.

Frank in Fla

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Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

That looks alot like one of my bolt head / faces when it blew a primer out the wrong way & burned the bolt face with a permanant impression of the primer. I had bought a bag of Win brass & I believe it was defective or the primer pocket was too wide in diameter. It took quite a while to clean the soot out of the bolt & polish the bolt face to get the pitting out of it. It never did clean up 100%. The dark discoloration can be cleaned up with a little Hoppe's No. 9, a Q-Tip, a little steel wool & some elbow grease. Wrap a small piece of steel wool around the Q-tip cotton, dip it in the Hoppe's and polish it up nicely. The part that's leaving an impression in primers is pretty bad. The only remedy I can think of for that is to replace the bolt head. They cost around 25 bucks or so and pretty easy to swap out. If you do a swap out there's no need to do the other stuff.
I really don't think Savage will be of any help since that looks like a bad primer or loose brass let a primer leak or something case head / primer related. You'd be better off to buy a new bolt head & swap it out yourself.
You can try cleaning it up & polishing it but I think it's too far gone for that based on your photos.

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Do you think there's any reason to believe/not believe the gun might not be chambering properly? I would be expecting some funky misfire issues if they were primer related alone. I don't know if it ever happens in the bolt action world, but it's not too hard to blow up an AR receiver if it fires out of battery.

It would be pretty hard to fire a bolt action rifle without the bolt closed completely. I'm not saying it couldn't happen under any circumstance, like have an early detonation from who knows what but without the case pulled up tight to the bolt, the firing pin couldn't strike the primer. When this happened all kinds of soot & burnt powder residue went into the bolt & it left a circular burn the same shape & diameter as the primer. This was brand new Win brass. It wasn't loaded hot either. I had a total of 4 or 5 from the bag that did this.

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...a/DSC07320.jpg

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...a/DSC07321.jpg

A while back I had a box of WLR primers that were defective. Winchester made good on it by replacing 2 bolt heads & a new box or WLR. but the bad ones would burn thru the back right at the edge where it rolls to become a radiused edge. They had micro cracks along that rolled edge. They made a real mess of a bolt face. The cases & primer shown in the photos caused me to have to disassemble the bolt & clean all the ash & residue out of it. When I'd chamber a round I could feel the action of it was all scratchy & tight.
Frank in Fla

I just noticed something......

fla9-40 - Are saying this was bought in July of 2002 or July 2nd this year?.... It looks like July 2002 but it reads like July 2nd. If that's a new rifle that bolt face sure is a mess. It looks very much like mine did when the primer blew out the wrong direction. The hot gas & burning powder is hot enough to really trash out a bolt face. Since I had the issues mentioned, I keep extra bolt heads on hand for just such emergencies....

Frank in Fla

Here's what mine looks like now after they've been cleaned up. I don't have any pics of the damage as they're in another computer that went DOA last year.

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...ltfaces001.jpg

Notice the pitting of the faces on the first & third bolts. It took quite a while to get them cleaned up & polished. The middle bolt is the most recent victim of a bad case & primer. I still haven't finished cleaning it up.
Frank in Fla

I actually had a premium grade nosler factory round blow the primer cap off in my AR 10--so it can happen to anything. The reason I suspect a bad chambering of the OP is the off-center stamping he gets--but I'm just guessing. I have to admit I'm amazed Savage didn't at least replace the bolt head.

Thanks all for you input, sorry for getting back late.... busy weekend.

fgw_in_fla that was supposed to be July 02, 2012. Sorry about that. Also on the lube issue, I always store all my bolts after cleaning and spraying them down with gun oil in a plastic baggie inside a cloth bag. I also drop a couple of drops of FP-10 lube on all moving parts to store.

I have thought about, seeing Savage a has not fixed it, to buy a bolt head and try changing it out myself.
Do any of you have a link to aftermarket ones? I looked on Savage site and they do not sale them there, guess you have to call them to order one.

Someone suggested to me that it may not be a pressure problem causing the "Smiley Face" but instead the bolt being all my problem because of the damage it has suffered.

Here is the bolt AFTER it came back from Savage the first time:

http://www.nettally.com/kwd/Bolt-Face After repair.JPG


On all rounds fired the primers looked like the picture I posted in the original post. :confused:

Anyway thanks to all that has input suggestions here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thermaler

Do you think there's any reason to believe/not believe the gun might not be chambering properly? I would be expecting some funky misfire issues if they were primer related alone. I don't know if it ever happens in the bolt action world, but it's not too hard to blow up an AR receiver if it fires out of battery.

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thermaler that has crossed my mind, but I would hope that Savage would of caught that when they checked the head space....maybe not! =(

... Sorry thought I could delete this one

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Originally Posted by fla9-40

thermaler that has crossed my mind, but I would hope that Savage would of caught that when they checked the head space....maybe not! =(

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I think with a flexie stock and funky recoil lug--firing these things involves a bit of voodoo. If your firing quality factory ammo (though Federal doesn't fit that bill in my book) and you keep getting these results, then something may be wrong in the process of chambering and firing--which would cause me to cease using the weapon immediately--but that's just me.

Therm - there will be no voodoo involved when shooting a Savage rifle. It tells you that in your owners manual.... Even if you do have to just about rebuild the Flex - o - Matic stock so it doesn't wiggle off the benchtop. It's all in good fun. Besides, some of the tightest groups I've shot were with an Axis / Edge.... A little TLC, a little OCD, some epoxy & a few hours time & presto.... Instant sub MOA shooter.

Hey fla9 - the bolt faces you have look alot like mine after I cleaned & polished them. I would suggest replacement of the bolt face. it's real simple to do & you might even find one on the classified area. I got a few from Midway for about $25 I think. Good luck with it.

Later y'all.... I just got home from the range & before I sort brass, log in targets & clean barrels, I feel a nap coming on strong.

Frank in FLa

PT&G are doing savage bolt heads and bodies now if you want an aftermarket one.

Ryan

WHAT IS A HAPPY FACE? REALLY, PRIVI AND S&B AMMO ARE PRETTY HOT , ADD IN THE FLA SUN AND YOU COULD HAVE ISSUES . FROM WHAT I CAN SEE THE MARKS ON THE CASE ARE NOT HEADSPACE RELATED ,THE MARKS ON THE BOLT FACE ARE A RESULT OF AMMO PROBLEMS , WHICH
HAVE PITTED YOUR BPOLT FACE , GET GOOD AMMO , DONT LEAVE IT IN THE CAR OR HOT SUN ! IM PRETTY SURE YOUR PROBLEMS WILL GO AWAY
Hope this helps GARY

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

Hey fla9 - the bolt faces you have look alot like mine after I cleaned & polished them. I would suggest replacement of the bolt face. it's real simple to do & you might even find one on the classified area. I got a few from Midway for about $25 I think. Good luck with it.

Frank in FLa

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Hey Frank I looked on Midway's site and did not find one, do you have a link to their bolt heads?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gmac5

WHAT IS A HAPPY FACE? REALLY, PRIVI AND S&B AMMO ARE PRETTY HOT , ADD IN THE FLA SUN AND YOU COULD HAVE ISSUES . FROM WHAT I CAN SEE THE MARKS ON THE CASE ARE NOT HEADSPACE RELATED ,THE MARKS ON THE BOLT FACE ARE A RESULT OF AMMO PROBLEMS , WHICH
HAVE PITTED YOUR BPOLT FACE , GET GOOD AMMO , DONT LEAVE IT IN THE CAR OR HOT SUN ! IM PRETTY SURE YOUR PROBLEMS WILL GO AWAY
Hope this helps GARY

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Hey Gary thanks for the input here.
I agree it does get hot here in Florida but I never leave ammo in my vehicles and when we shoot it is under covered stations not out in the direct sunlight. The "Happy Face or Smiley Face" as it is called is the half moon indention seen on the head of the brass. In the picture I put up it is the mark that runs at about the 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock area.

Do you mean the rubbing of the brass buy the bolt head? If so thats normal! The case !after firing is stuck to the chamber wall, then as you open the bolt ,the bolt turns ,brass is still stuck ,now at some point prior to your primary extraction the brass starts turning withe the bolt and you get what i see in the picture . Where do you live? Im in west palm bch fl

I would say try here but it looks like they be outta stock. Try Numrich. Someone's gotta have them. They change out pretty easy, I mean you don't need an engineering degree or nothing like that.
Maybe some of the other guys will know of a place that has them, too.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/451...308-winchester


Frank in Fla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gmac5

Do you mean the rubbing of the brass buy the bolt head? If so thats normal! The case !after firing is stuck to the chamber wall, then as you open the bolt ,the bolt turns ,brass is still stuck ,now at some point prior to your primary extraction the brass starts turning withe the bolt and you get what i see in the picture . Where do you live? Im in west palm bch fl

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Really? I just broke out the bag of brass from the couple hundred rounds I fired through both my 308 and 270 in the past two weeks--I don't see anything like that though one or two had an almost imperceptible roundish glossy spot and my bolt faces show nothing like the OP's.

LUCKY YOU! TRY PRIVI OR S&b IN SOUTH FLA HEAT AN SEE IF YOU SAY THAT AGAIN! UNLESS IM NOT SEEING " the happy face"
DA STILL SOUNDS LIKE AMMO PROBLEMS NOT BOLT HEAD DA

I fired Winchester, Remington, Fusion Vortex, Nosler, Hornady and federal--not a one showed anything approaching an actual indentation. Is this really normal?

DA TRY PRIVI OR S&b DA DA dAAAAA

The ammo that caused his bolt face pitting was ammo problem period .if he wants to replace his bolt head for appearance o k but unless he changes ammo he will have another pitted bolt face! What do you think axis bolt heads are soft in the primer area and by replacing it you would get a better one?

You know the worst part of being sick is boredom ! You find yourself doing things you kick yourself in the azz for

If he does change the bolt ,dont forget he is gonna re headspace , which means gauges and a barrel nut wrench

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gmac5

DA TRY PRIVI OR S&b DA DA dAAAAA

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Why would you want me to try ammo you think might damage the action??

Also--I'm not sure--but do you mean Prvi partizan ammo (privi)? I've shot gobs of that stuff through my ARs and for the price I think think it's one of the all-around best value rounds there is. Never had a misfire and no cleaning issues any worse than any non-match grade production domestic stuff--and this is with direct-impingement guns.

BTW--what's the DA DA DA stuff mean?

I would say clean it up if you think it's salvageable and use ammo of known good quality, depending on what you're shooting it for - ie hunting, target, fun....

And keep it out of the sun. Especially if you're headed south for the winter.

Stay well & have fun

Frank in Fla.

Ejector rub marks on brass is normal. The privi and s&b wont hurt you action , only meant to try that ammo to see the happy face,( ejector rub marks on brass)

Does this hold true for Winchester brass as well? Savage used this to test fire my gun before they sent it back to me this last time and sent the fired Winchesters with it. They had the mark as well...

I have some reloads I am going to try this weekend, will have to check and see what brass I have on hand.

BTW Gary I'm in North Florida...Seminole Country! Around the Tally area...

This might be what Gmac5 was stating earlier in the thread, if so kudos to him!

I think I have found what is causing the Smiley Face on my brass. I noticed yesterday that on the face of the ejector pen ( I think that is what it is called, not the firing pin but the pin that is coming out of the bolt head next to the firing pin hole) that there was a nipple on the end of it standing proud of the pin. I tried last night to polish it with some lapping compound and polishing cream. I then put a round in the chamber and closed the bolt. When I extracted the round it had a "Smiley Face" on the head of the brass at that pin location! I guess I could still try and polish it more, what do you think?

This does not address the hard to open bolt, still a mystery on that one! Maybe it will get better with more rounds down the tube!

Im glad that you see that the ejector spring pressure is such that it must rub on the base of the cartridge in order to have positive ejection. A small burr on the ejector would scratch the cases but should wear smooth with normal use.
Sorry if I come across grumpy , Im not feeling to good, I over did it this weekend and im paying for it now.
GARY

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Originally Posted by fla9-40

This might be what Gmac5 was stating earlier in the thread, if so kudos to him!

I think I have found what is causing the Smiley Face on my brass. I noticed yesterday that on the face of the ejector pen ( I think that is what it is called, not the firing pin but the pin that is coming out of the bolt head next to the firing pin hole) that there was a nipple on the end of it standing proud of the pin. I tried last night to polish it with some lapping compound and polishing cream. I then put a round in the chamber and closed the bolt. When I extracted the round it had a "Smiley Face" on the head of the brass at that pin location! I guess I could still try and polish it more, what do you think?

This does not address the hard to open bolt, still a mystery on that one! Maybe it will get better with more rounds down the tube!

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When you say "hard to open" what part of the process do you mean? do you mean lifted the bolt lever up--or actually withdrawing the spent casing?

Sometimes both but now more often withdrawing the spent casing..... At first when I sent the first 20 rounds through it , around 8 or so it started to have a hard bolt lift. Now after two trips back to Savage the lift is somewhat better and the extraction is worse!

My gunsmith and I are planning on removing the barrel and lapping the bolt, polishing the ejector and setting the head space on it this weekend maybe. I gave Savage two chances to fix it and have given up on them....:mad: :mad: Seems like their not in a hurry to keep a customer!

Do not overlook polishing the inside of the chamber with steel wool a q-tip and a drill as a solution for the bolt lift and extraction issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fla9-40

Sometimes both but now more often withdrawing the spent casing..... At first when I sent the first 20 rounds through it , around 8 or so it started to have a hard bolt lift. Now after two trips back to Savage the lift is somewhat better and the extraction is worse!

My gunsmith and I are planning on removing the barrel and lapping the bolt, polishing the ejector and setting the head space on it this weekend maybe. I gave Savage two chances to fix it and have given up on them....:mad: :mad: Seems like their not in a hurry to keep a customer!

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That's strange--sounds almost like there is something "sticking" the casing in after firing. I sincerely hope your gunsmith finds the problem and solution--I too would be upset under those circumstances--hell, if Savage were smart they woulda just sent you a whole new rifle : )

OK--this is a real long shot--but I thought it's worth mentioning considering the OP's symptoms.

When I first got my 270 the front stock screw "seized" and I (as well as others) tried many ways to get it loose--we all failed and the hex head ended up getting stripped. I eventually cut the stock in order to get the bolt loose.

In the meantime, I ordered another stock from Savage, and since the bolt was a goner I went to a local hardware store and found a fine-threaded screw to use as a temporary replacement while I awaited a new one from Savage. I thought the temporary screw was the same length as the stock one, but I forgot to take into account the portion of the screw that was unthreaded though that was only a mm or so difference. Point is, when I tightened up the front screw on the receiver, the bolt became very stiff both in locking/unlocking and pull-back/extraction. A slight loosening, and everything was easy as it should be. I then grinded the screw down a bit, and viola, after tightening down the bolt operation was silky easy.

It may be possible that the extra length of the screw is impinging on the operation of the bolt--looking at the hole in the receiver it looks very shallow and is on top of the bolt, but may have an effect when the bolt rotates.

Another extraction thought. When you lift the bolt, is the angle on the bolt handle hitting the angle on the baffle to cam the bolt back a bit?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fla9-40

Sometimes both but now more often withdrawing the spent casing.....

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Kinda fish'n here , but have you checked that the ejector retracts flush or slightly below the bolt face? From experience many times you find burrs in the ejector bore, metal chips, gunk and other assorted stuff in there preventing the ejector from going at least flush with the bolt face.

A visual indication is a drag mark(smiley) on the casehead almost equal in length to the 90* bolt lift and depending on the amount of restricted movement can cause hard bolt lift as it drags across the casehead.

It may explain both issues your having, increased bolt lift and extraction/ejection problems.

Bill

WOW glad I checked back in, lots of good ideas still coming in.
I have not taken the gun to my smith yet, but will sure check out what all of you have pointed out!

I do appreciate all your input here, GREAT stuff!

As Gmac noted, the mark on the head of the brass is normal for higher pressure rounds - as is a circular dot from the ejector if/when you happen to get that as well. Combine high ambient temperatures, successive rounds fired one after another, and high pressure loads and you're going to get high pressure signs which are exactly what these are.

As for the bolt head, no need to change it as it's not the problem and the surface imperfection isn't going to hurt anything. As Gmac pointed out, changing it would also require you reset the barrel headspace as they can vary in both length and depth by several thousandths.

The filth on your bolt face is usually attributed to imported ammo and the filthy burning primers they use. You'll get the same filth from domestic primers, but usually not until you put several hundred rounds through the gun. Even my preferred CCI BR primers will filthy up a bolt face after running enough rounds through the gun without cleaning.