Check out my annealing job..opinions wanted

Ok, I did some test runs today. Basically what I did was found a long socket that the case fit down inside of snugly but loose enough so the case falls out when tilted. The socket was used to shield the rest of the case from the open flame. I chucked the socket into a drill to spin while heating the exposed area of the brass.

I tried both MAP and butane torches. I like the MAP because it heats really, really quickly. I can hold the case by the rim with my bare hand right after the neck is done like in the pictures. It is a bit hot to the touch but not so hot that it blisters, brass fired from an AR is hotter.

Using the butane the base gets very hot by the time the neck starts to change color because it heats so slowly. It takes over 5 seconds for the brass to change colors with butane. where the MAP gas does the same in 1-2 seconds and is glowing by 3 seconds but the rim is still able to be touched even after getting the neck red.

With these I heated them in bright light and just as the brass started to discolor I removed the heat. Then I tried heating the brass in dim light, removing the heat as the brass started to glow. I could see very little difference in appearance between the two methods.

Here are some pictures of some practice brass:
These are just some practice pieces that were just annealed and nothing else.These won't be loaded for other reasons.
Inside the 3/8" socket before annealing:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2401.jpg[/img]
After annealing, slightly pulled out of socket:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2402.jpg[/img]
Pictures of brass after annealing:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2405.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2407.jpg[/img]
Using the socket as a shield leaves a nice uniform height on all of them and again the rim is no hotter than when fired from an AR.

Here are some 7.62x39 that have been annealed then polished:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2375.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2388.jpg[/img]

If anyone thinks this might not work please let me know what might need to be done better. I am thinking of making a taller "socket" out of aluminum for the 223. This way it acts as a heatsink and moves the annealed area a little higher up the case.

Thanks for all the responses
Dolomite

I certainly like this method as opposed to others I've read about as it seems like it would be quicker and easier than water trays, etc. I've never annealed cases but have always been curious about its benefits. I have hundreds of winchester .223 cases that have been loaded 5-6 times, trimmed once and have been neck sized the past several loadings. I figure they may benefit from the treatment but have no idea what conditions would indicate the need for annealing.

How does one know if the brass is becoming hard and in need of annealing? Does .223 brass tend to need this treatment?

I was full length sizing using dies that sized the neck the same time. The die would squeeze the neck down to a small diameter then pull a mandrel through the neck stritching it to the correct size. This squeezing and expanding work hardens the brass a lot more than just neck sizing where the neck is squeezed to the correct diameter only. It is bending a copper wire, easy at first then gets brittle and breaks.

I have noticed that I would get approximately 4 loadings using the FL sizer before I started to see random case neck splits upon firing.

Dolomite

I use the same method, but I made my "socket" out of aluminum with a 3/8 shank to fit in a drill. works very well. I never thought of using an actual socket though. Very creative.

Steve

Clever idea! Thanks for sharing.

And I thought I had a good way to anneal! They look great... After a few loading you can feal the difference when it is resized - harder. The necks have more soot than usual, split necks, even more resistance when seating a bullet. How often to anneal? I have gotten into the habit of annealing after 3 or 4 loadings. Have some brass that has been loaded over 20 times. Depending on how hot it was loaded of course. But I do water quench it after annealing. If you can hold the brass by the head after it is removed from the socket for a few seconds you should be ok. It does not need to be soft. If the brass glows and then turns a sickly spotted brown - chunk it! Good luck. Looks like you are on the right track!

Dolomite,
I use the socket trick also, but with a 4" socket extension attached which I turn by hand. I hold it loosley at mid-shaft (letting it slide through my fingertips of my left hand while turning with my right hand). I can't see anything on your cases that look like a problem, but you may want to rethink the fast/slow approach with the different torches. If you have 1/2 second reaction time, that half second is may more meaningful when it takes 1-2 seconds to "get it right" with the MAP torch than it is over the 6-8 seconds with the propane torch. Remember, the reason you're doing this is to eliminate case to case variation and make all cases equal. You may be seeing the effect of this in the pics- i see a few with "longer" annealing marks - either they got hotter or you put them in the flame in a different position. That's why I settled on the propane - it's more forgiving of the human-induced error that you can't eliminate unless you go to a machine......Cases look good. If you don't like the anneal signature, it'll polish off in a vibrator. I leave mine on most of the time.
ELkbane

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hunter2

.... But I do water quench it after annealing.....

---

Is it best to water quench rather than let the cases cool slowly?

Water quenching does nothing for brass annealing.

Don't quite agree - If is gets very hot, longer period to anneal, it will get to the head of the brass FAST! That part needs to stay the same. That is the reason Hornady has the heat sink. Anneal, drop into water,shake them out good, lightly blow dry or set over vent from furnace. Doesn't take too long and seems to keep primer pockets tight longer....It just works for me...

If your heat is making it to the casehead, you need to refine your technique. I like to dip mine in a bucket of icewater too but it does nothing 'materially' to the annealing process of the brass.

I like the idea of the MAPP gas heating quickly but it sounds like the margin for error is small and quick reactions are necessary. My reactions seem to be slowing down lately :)

I contacted a machinist to have a custom "socket" made to help me anneal 223. We are still prototyping as well as deciding on what material or materials to use. I think I have a decent idea that hopefully makes annealing easier for me.

Once I get a few different designs to test and find one that works well I may send out a few for people to try to get their input.

Dolomite

Read this good info. Not for the machine but for the info.
http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm

Thanks for the link, very interesting.

Not sure if you linked that because of the machine or not but my design is more for low production / individual users.

I had looked at a few annealing machines and decided against it because I do not shoot enough right now to warrant it. Another reason to have an annealer is if you are making bras for one caliber using brass from another caliber. I use standard calibers on a small production basis so the cost of buying an annealing machine isn't worth it.

I have decided to start paying more attention to brass prep recently so especially now trying to speed up the whole process is counterintuitive. I might bave been interested before when I wasn't as worried about uniformity but definitely not now.

Dolomite

Brass has to hit 650F to begin annealing. The case head should never exceed 450F or you will separate when fired.

When the case body at the shoulder reaches 650F after 3-4 seconds sheild the flame and remove the case from the holder and the case head will not have over heated. The question is how do you know when the temps are correct?

I place a thin 450F Temilaq ring 1/2" from the case head and a thin ring of 650F on the body diameter at the shoulder. When the 650F ring melts I wait 3-4 seconds and block the flame then remove the case from the holder. The 450F ring should NEVER melt if it does trash the case you worked too slow.

One thing to remember when using Tempilq it must be mixed/shaken/stirred completely as it separates significantly when it sets for even a short while (a day) and will not be accurate. Iv'e use this method successfully and get really good uniform neck pressure and very low SD's and really have done away with fliers caused by fluctuating chamber pressures.

Also the Tempilaq stains the case and I clean it after wards with a piece scotchbrite with just a slight twisting of the case. Could be a pain if your doing thousands of cases. I do about 100 cases after each match so no big deal.

I never had much success using the sticks but that's just me. I tried them and they have their place but dont seem to work well when annealing brass. One more comment if you see glowing red its way to long in the flame

I have actually done quite a bit of testing using temperatre sensetive indicators. I have held the heat on the case mouth long enough for it to cherry and with my annealing setup the case head is still pretty cool. I am able to bleed off the heat before it gets to the case head.

I am still debating on applying for a patent, my wife seems it is worth it.

Dolomite

Dolomite,
I have the Ken Light Annealer set up for 223 Rem and lots of brass to play with. I would be glad to try one of your devices and compare the results to the Ken Light machine. From your photos it looks like you are on the right track.
Charlie

The Ken Light is way out of my league. Mine is more for smaller batches and is basically something for newer annealers to ensure they don't mess things up. The Ken Light is for doing a lot of brass where mine you couldn't even come close.

Dolomite

Dolomite,
The Ken Light machine cannot necessarily do a better job of annealing than your method or anyone else's. What it can do is anneal pretty fast and very consistently. Consistence would be the thing to compare not speed of production.
Charlie

Dolomite

Been spinnin em in a deep dish socket for awhile now. Only method I ever tried. Never considered standing them in water and playing the flame on them. :P

Heres a tip for you quenchers. If you feel the need to quench but hate the idea of drying brass try this.
Put some old rags (towels, sweat shirts, t shirts etc) in a bucket. Add enough water to saturate the rags but keep the water level well below the top layer. Make that top layer as flat as possible. I squish it down with anything flat to compress the rags flat. Remove water if necessary.
Anneal em and drop em in the bucket.
You'll get *some* of the rapid cooling effect of quenching without soaking the inside of the cases. Roll em on a dry rag after removal and they're done.

The only brass I fully quench is my 6PPC or 6BR's due to the shortness of the case and the extreme pressures they operate under.
I feel safer taking absolutely no chances with them little buggers. ;)

I use a propane torch with a drill rod in the primer pocket, spin them by hand in a darkened room. When they glow, drop them in a bucket of water. Shake the water out of them and put on a cookie tray in a 200 oven for an hour or so, turn the oven off and the cases are dry in the morning. I use the same drying method when I clean in the ultrasonic.

If you have an air compresser you can take an air nossel that will fit down it the case and blow then stand them neck down in your loading tray they will be dry by the time you are ready to reload

Check out this machine...

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com...neck-annealer/


Pete

I submitted benchsource an email two days ago (on their website form) asking how to purchase the above unit. They have yet to reply. Guess I'll have to try calling them.

Was going to purchase the Ken Light machine, but he doesn't take plastic (it is 2010 right?), so hopefully benchsource want the funds.

A little ironic about how so many manufacturers want to gripe about "the economy"--then make it difficult to do business with them. But, that's probably a whole 'nother thread.

I'll post a review of the benchsource unit if I can get them to sell me a unit.

Just picked up some Mapp gas and a new torch head. Found a deep 11mm socket and stuffed some steel wool in the base to keep my .221 Fireball cases sticking out enough. Took about 15 minutes to do about 75 cases. Worked real slick.
Loaded up a test batch of 10 cases and I could "definitly" tell the difference in neck tension. Did a few .223 cases first to get the feel for what I was doing.
I needed a new cordless drill and torch head anyway so it only cost me about $15.00 for the gas. Only used about 1/4 of the canister.
My main concern was changing the neck tension and the annealing job made a big difference. A good range trip will show for sure. ;)

bench-source looks like a nice unit, to bad for me I'm cheap! may have to quite doing that some day. any one make an economic automated system?

Been kicking around a few ideas on the subject. Just waiting for the right parts to appear from an old machine we may take apart or demo some day. I got my eye out for it.

When I was researching annealing machines I came across a few "build it yourself" concepts. Try Googling annealing machines and see what pops up.
Charlie

dolomite, great post. Photos most helpful. I've been annealing for a number of years now. Your coloration looks good! though a bit uneven in length. I agree w/elkbane. For me propane is more controlable. I use a bernz-o-matic and regulate heat by adjusting the length of the inner blue cone to 1 and a half inches.(give or take depending on cartridge length/size) I agree with hunter 2 on water quenching but only do so on tiny cases like .223 rem. For me, if I'm annealing a larger/longer case (6mm AI, .243 win.) I don't quench. I pluck the case from the holder with a welding gloved left hand and set it in a home-made wooden loading block mouth up. This way the heat is rising upward and away from the base. I've never had a problem with softening case heads using this method as long as I keep the torch dwell time in the 5 to 7 second range by adjusting the cone length. I prefer to anneal in bright light because I'm red/green color blind and can detect the subtle color change of the brass going blue.(can't see the dull red 'til it's too late!) A great "holder" for .223 is a 3/8" drive Allen wrench. Chuck the Allen portion into your drill and drop the case into the square 3/8" drive end, a real nice fit with minimum wobble. I'm not in favor of heat sinks and have never seen one on an automated annealing machine though I may stand corrected on this. Again GREAT post!

Looks mighty fine to me.