Is over penetration wasted energy?

A friend of mine shoots a 243 and I shoot a 30-06 with 200gr bullets. We got in a bit of an argument as he claimed the 243 as being a better deer cartridge. He said my 30-06 with 200gr has too much penetration. He said there is a lot of wasted energy passed out the other side of the deer and that I would have a small exit wound due to the bullet not expanding. I like this round because I can take a shoulder shot knowing the deer will drop where it stands. I dont think I could do that with a 243 nosler partition tip. Could I?

He said sometimes his bullets dont even go clear through the deer and that no energy is wasted. It is all expended on the deer. I have seen his deer, the insides look like they are blown up and mangled. He also routinely drops them where they stand.

How come a smaller round can drop a deer where they are at just as good as my 200gr 30-06? Does this have to do with hydrostatic shock? Would I be better off with a lower grain bullet? Is expansion an issue for me?

Okay now clear all of this up for me... please. I'm eager to learn and really want to know the answer to this!

Velocity.Your 200gr bullet will go through any deer,regardless of bone penetration.The 243 will expend all it's energy in the animal,and rarely exit(a nosler partition more often).I shot a Reh buck(45lbs) right behind the shoulder, broadside, with a 243 and speer 105gr going 3100 at 40yds and the bullet was in pieces under the skin on the far side.All energy expended in the animal,and he was dead before he hit the ground.That's what your friend is talking about.Now,
if an elk presented itself for a rear quatering shot,I want that 06 you have.Bullet placement makes most of the difference.

its gonna take x amount of energy to push given object through a given target regardless of velocity. Lets say it takes 900lbs of energy to push a 243 100gr soft point through a given deer. No matter how fast it is going its still gonna take 900lbs to push it through and the deer is gonna absorb 900lbs of energy. given the same target, it will take more energy to push a 150gr bullet through it, so by using the larger bullet you introduced more energy into the deer. So taking this information there is no way that the deer absorbed more energy from the 243. Heres the tricky part, hydostatic shock occurs when a substance, be it energy, mass, sound waves, or anything else is introduced into any target and has no way out. when the bullet passes through, most of the hydrostatic shock goes out the exit hole. but when it exits it creates a different killer, and this is vacuum. this is when velocity really matters because the faster a given bullet passes through the more vacuum it creates which is the exact opposite as hydrostatic shock, so you kinda have a push pull effect on tissue fluids. to sum this up the faster a given bullet is traveling the tighter the waves of energy are around it and the more damage they will do and there is more negative energy behind it which also does its own damage. so taking all in consideration they will both kill the deer but ill take the pass through.

when a high velocity missile strikes the body and moves through soft tissues, pressures develop which are measured in thousands of atmospheres. Actually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive temporary cavity, formed behind the missile. Such pressure changes appear to be responsible for what is known to hunters as hydraulic shock—a hydraulic transmission of energy which is believed to cause instant death of animals hit by high velocity bullets (Powell (1)).


In such meticulously selected cases brain tissue was examined histologically; samples were taken from brain hemispheres, basal ganglia, the pons, the oblongate and from the cerebellum. Cufflike pattern haemorrhages around small brain vessels were found in all specimens. These haemorrhages are caused by sudden changes of the intravascular blood pressure as a result of a compression of intrathoracic great vessels by a shock wave caused by a penetrating bullet

All good information, but an exit would leaves a nice blood trail (if you do have to track). Folks will say a good shot will not need to be tracked but...

Still - I think for whitetails you would be better off with 165 grain bullets. But if the 200s work for you - why change anything?

Why do you think the 165gr is a better choice over the 200gr?

For deer I've always understood it that a rapidly expanding bullet is best correct? As long as you still get adequate penetration. With the 30-06 I definitely would.

What is your guys favorite bullet style for 50-150 yard shots on whitetail?

I also prefer the 165 gr bullets. I haven't tried the 200 gr bullets but used to shoot the 180 gr Partition. The lighter bullets give me a flatter trajectory and are meant for lighter skin animals such as deer. The 200 gr bullets are typically meant for heavier game. 165 grain Sierra Game Kings typically give me 2 inch exit holes in my 308.
Having said that - "if it ain't broke don't fix it", if the 200 gr bullets are working for you the proof is in your freezer.
Keith

Yea I'm always looking to learn though. If one is more efficient over the other I owe it to the animal to use whichever will provide the quickest, cleanest kill.

When I hunt I want my bullet to do two things. Expand and penetrate.

I also want my bullet to do that at any range I expect to take game at.

At any range less than that, I expect the bullet to exit. I don't consider it a waste.

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My family waste more energy leaving the lights on in a room when they leave than I will ever waste on animals with fully penetrating bullets.

I drive V8s and V10 engines.

Ain't too concerned with wasted energy in bullets.


A little concerned about using anything smaller than a 375 on deer.

But the 460 Weatherby with a 500-grain Swift A-frame bonded-core partitions will stop small deer reliably.


As far as bullet expansion, think there is enough research to conclude that whatever expansion a bullet is going to do will start within the first couple of inches and be complete within six inches.


I prefer complete penetration on any game animal regardless of how far the bullet has to travel inside the animal.

I have spent all the time tracking after a shot that I ever intend to. I like holes on both sides that you can stick your hole arm through.


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The 165gr in the '06 has long been the favorite "single bullet". It gives the best of trajectory, energy and penetration. If using something like the barnes TTSX, the Nosler partition (none of which are NEEDED for deer mind you) or similar, then you have a cartridge/bullet combo that will quickly kill anything you're likely to hunt, and never have to change your load.

The TTSX, for example will give outstanding ballistics for long range shots, and based on personal testiminonies from others, even a 150yd shot on an elk was a pass through. That was from a 308 Win, just a little bit slower than the ole '06.

Back to your original question, that is a never ending argument, really. Personally, I like the pass through, cause even if it doesn't drop right there, you have a better blood trail, and you have positive proof that the bullet penetrated, at the ver least. The SIZE of the blood trail will often tell you how well it did on it's way through.

In my opinion, you are overgunned with the 200, unless it's the old round nose version. That (I'm pretty sure, maybe the 180gr) was what the Benoit's of deer hunting fame used most often. It gave superb penetration, and reliable expansion on a deer. The 200gr spire points are really meant for big bear, elk and moose.

In reality, you could load up a box of 165gr Rem core lockt's or similar, and have a better performing gun overall. Oh, and I would not hesitate to use the Rem on deer, elk or black bear either. For moose, I'd go back to the 180 or your 200.

By the way, since you don't seem to LOSE your deer, maybe just have to track them, do a comparison on ruined meat between yours and friends setup. I have both calibers and the little 243 is like a bomb. Now if you want a caliber that will make sure that coyote thats been after the chickens won't run off, the 243 will be a dream. Load that sucker with a 70-75gr light skin bullet, and he will never know what hit him out to 3-400yds, and with an 85gr, easily to 500yds.

Massive hydraulic shock can just basically liquefy internal organs and can ruin some meat too.

Personally I want a deer to drop in its tracks.
In that case you would want a bullet that imparts maximum shock to the system without damaging meat too much.

If it goes through like a drill, or does not have time to expand or open up, if it is a good shot it will still kill the deer,
but they might just walk away. I have had them do that to me. Just walk away like I did not even touch them only to find them later DOA.

A barnes bullet is pretty amazing on pigs if it opens up properly.
Every one I have shot with any caliber TTSX bullet, anywhere on the body either drops on the spot or it runs 20 yards and falls over dead.
Seems like it provides a massive hydrolic shock to the system.
They will pass through a deer, hog or any other animal..

Now just this last season I hunted with a 308 loaded with 208 gr amaxes.
A target bullet and it comes apart, but it has a SD of over .3

I was thinking well, I am probably going to try a neck shot and I doubt this bullet will have time to expand, wrong.

I shot a small deer in the neck at about 100 yards and the exit hole was 3" and it obviously dropped in its tracks.

Also shot a 250# boar with a 162 gr 7mm amax bullet running at 2600 at about 300 yards and it blew through him, no problem.
Exit hole was 2"

I think Ideally for a deer vitals/body shot, at least for me, I want the correct FPE at max range I will shoot and I want a fast expanding bullet, dont really care of it comes apart on deer as long as it penetrates, and I want a bullet that exits so I have a decent amount of blood to track.

For larger hogs you need a tougher bullet IMO like a barnes TTSX bullet or a jacketed bullet with a SD of about .27-.3

Maybe this will help you out.
Chuck hawks guide to bullets and game.
FYI CXP2 game is deer sized game.
A large boar hog - CXP3

Some people dont like his articles, but I think they are interesting.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/gun_game.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_bullet_guide1.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_bullet_guide2.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power.htm

In a 7 mm Rem Mag, I tried some 168 gr Bergers. Shot one buck with them. Pass-through shot that dropped him where he stood. My son uses a .300 Win Mag. Pass-through shots that drop them too. Bullet placement and adequate energy will do it every time. I also have a 30-06 that I shoots 168 gr Winchester Silvertips well. Usually drop deer with that rifle too. There are lots of rounds that will drop deer if bullet placement is good. And if they do run, a good blood trail is a wonderful thing. Especially if you shoot them at dusk. To me, the .243/30-06 argument is moot. Shoot what you like as long as you can shoot it well and it has the energy required at the longest range you expect to shoot. Main thing, shoot all you can, know your rifle/round, enjoy your hunt.

I personally feel that no animal I ever killed with a pistol or rifle, ever died from "Kinetic Energy" the animal dies from the damage done by that bullet and I always like to see an exit wound on the animal. It sure makes a tracking job a lot easier if there is plenty of blood on the ground. If I want an animal down in a hurry, I shoot to break both shoulders and in all these years, I have never had one go more than 20 yards tops.

Those light bullets traveling at high velocity often as not do give one a "bomb" type effect on the inside of the animal but it is NOT the energy that killed that critter, it was the fragging of all that bullet into the vitals and the tremendous damage done to those vital organs by said bullet regardless of an exit wound.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tracer

Those light bullets traveling at high velocity often as not do give one a "bomb" type effect on the inside of the animal but it is NOT the energy that killed that critter, it was the fragging of all that bullet into the vitals and the tremendous damage done to those vital organs by said bullet regardless of an exit wound.

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Try a barnes tipped bullet at about 3600 fps.
They dont fragment and produce massive damage.
I shot an 80# pig quartering towards me and the bullet exited his ham and blew out an 8" hole.
Basically blew out his entire ass and one ham.

All of this is very good information and some of it very scientific. I prefer a slightly different approach. Different bullets shoot differently in your gun. Different bullet weights shoot differently in your gun. Find the combination that will consistently print the smallest group on a target and most importantly find the bullet that you can place where you want it cold barrel or first shot.
Obviously, I am talking about bullets that are constructed for hunting purposes not target purposes. And if you have a hunting type bullet, that you can place where you want it, the deer will die.

I have shot many deer with a 17 Rem, where it's legal to do so, and it will drop a deer in it's tracks. So as you mentioned, a 243 will drop a deer, a 30-06 will drop a deer. Both with proper shot placement. A elephant gun with poor bullet placement will result in a deer running off and needing to be tracked.

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Prefer properly-constructed extremely-heavy large-diameter Mach IV-velocity bullets perfectly-placed for maximum-destruction and cavernous-exit-wounds. Followed-up rapidly and continuously by similarly perfectly-placed rounds until such time as an autopsy can be performed to determine the cause of death. Working with teams of large animal vets and biologists prior to the hunt can help map out three-dimensional proper-placement of bullets using conditional probability theory. Might also make use of a mechanical engineer, a hydraulics engineer, an electrical engineer, and of course an old fashion plumber. Game bullet wounds are basically a plumbing problem and a structural deconstruction problem with some electrical wiring getting rerouted.

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You don't really say in your situation, if you use that same rifle combo for any other hunting? That 30-06 was made for 200 gr bullets in my opinion. What a perfect combination. I would continue to use what works and ignore your buddy. You'll get a whole bunch of different opinions on this subject, and here's mine.

The high speed small caliber guns can work great on deer, or even elk. Notice that I said "can". You can't predict or control all of the variables when big game hunting. Target shooting, yes, but not hunting. Some of these variables can result in a "don't shoot" scenario if you're shooting a small caliber/high speed bullet combo. If the deer is very close, and/or going away, etc, you will have to pass on the shot, or hold off and hope it turns/moves/shifts, etc to present a better shot for that combo. A very close shot can cause the bullet to impact too hard on the surface, i.e., the bullet was going too fast for it's construction limits when it struck the animal, and the bullet blows up on impact, causing massive surface damage, but little deep vital trauma, leading the animal to run off wounded. I have witnessed this occurring more than once with my own eyes. Also, the higher the velocity of the bullet on impact, the more bloodshot meat you will have. I've seen guys that have had to throw away a whole shoulder due to bloodshot meat. This may or may not be an issue for you, depending on the circumstances, but I'm personally a "meat hunter", and this part matters to me.

You will not have these issues with your 30-06/200 gr bullet combo. I would also hazard that a 180 gr bullet would give you the same results, but the emphasis is on what works in your gun. My -06 does not prefer 180 gr bullets, so I don't shoot them in it.

I do prefer heavy bullets for each given caliber.

For big game hunting, I prefer a combo that I can shoot an animal at any point of the compass with. I mean that regardless of which way it is facing, I can get a bullet through to the vitals. That means if it's a "going away" shot, I can plow through the entire animal to get there. The bullet still has to pass through the vitals for a reliable kill. I also much prefer exit wounds. Not fist sized ones like Hammer does, but I have seen enough killed game to "prove" to myself the theory that exit wounds bleed more than entrance wounds. I have found this to be true. I have also found that deer and elk are deathly allergic to sunlight. The more sunlight you let into the deer or elk, the faster they die. I just try to keep that within reason, as I am a meat hunter, and you can't eat the sunlight portion of the animal.

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Once in deepest, darkest Africa came up on a wildebeest at a range less than 25 yards.

Perfectly placed a 300-grain Swift A-frame fired from a 378 Weatherby Magnum into his vitals.

The wildebeest did not move. He did not fall. He just stood there and stared at me.

From my steady rest, could look right through the wound hole, see what remained of his heart and lungs, and see the broken tree which had been standing behind the wildebeest.

Quickly fired a second shot which entered maybe an inch or two from the first round and basically just enlarged the existing wound even larger. Through the very large hole, could see there was no part of the tree remaining behind him. Could probably have read a newspaper through that hole.

He finally decided to fall this time.

Wish I had been using the 460 Weatherby with 500-grainers that morning.


Have killed wildbeest with a 30-06 before, but you are taking unnecessary chances that way.

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When I was growing up, lots of Southern whitetail deer hunters used 220-grain roundnose bullets in their 30-06 for yearlings. They worked pretty good.

One gun store in Tennessee did a brisk business in 375 H&H and 458 Win Mags.

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"Overpenetration"=good blood trail.

Ask any bow hunter.

If your original intent was to harvest a game animal with your "over penetrating"
bullet selection, and you accomplish that regardless of the "over penetration," what difference
does it make?

"Over penetration" or not, you've accomplished your objective; hopefully in a
humane and sporting-like manner; without damaging a whole lot of meat in the process.

Sure there are optimum bullet selections for any given set of circumstances but, -as an example-
you could have done all your home work and selected what you expected to be the right bullet for
the type of environment and ranges you'd be hunting, only to be presented with a shot 10 yard
shot immediately upon exiting the door of your truck as you arrived at your hunt site.

As I've stated; this is just a round-about example in a situation where you may have chosen a bullet more
suited for long range shooting type of hunt.

HollowPoint

One thing to ponder, is IF, and I say IF, your 200's are not expanding, then go for shoulder shots. Your deer will drop where they stand. There's not a deer made that will not have both shoulders broken and can run after that. Problem solved! You keep your load and the deer are easy to find ;D.

And as far as your friends opinion of "wasted" energy, if you have enough energy to completely, you have enough to kill the deer. If the bullet does not pass through, and the deer runs off, it leaves one to wonder if there was enough. As was said before, you can use your load on anything on this continent, and others as well. Can he?

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Does a '67 Chevy with a 427 and posi-trac have "wasted energy" ?

This is America !

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Oh, bad example there Hammer,

Should have used a PROPER example...

Like, a 69-70 Mopar with a 440 big block, 4 spd, 4:56 Sure Grip.




Chevys...

::)

.

Well, I grew up driving GM and Mopar.

In addition to the Chevys, Buicks, etc... Had Plymouths and Chryslers with 440 V8s.

No Fords.

Later, got into driving Fords with 460 V8s and later V10s in 3/4 ton 4WD farm trucks.

Properly made vehicles should have 60-gallon saddle tanks.


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i use 150gr GMX bullets in my 308 with a MV of only 2625. hornady says they have to be above 2200 to begin opening but all my shots ar under 150yrd which the velocity is well over that.

i have not had one deer run but im partial to neck shots. i have taken a head shot at a nice 125lbs sow and turned her inside out. all bullets were pass , including the pig head shot, and i think if i were to get a bad shot by chance i would rather have 2 holes instead of one to make tracking easier. JMHO.

Brian

What over penetration does via a 95 grain barnes bullet at 3600+....

[img width=562 height=450]http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z300/tammons3/Gory%20hunting%20pics%20-%20beware/exitbuckfieldhog27095grbarnes.jpg[/img]

(Is over penetration wasted energy?) Yes. But it also means you didn't need that much energy in the first place.

I hunting pigs for a while with a 375 ruger loaded with 270 gr barnes bullets.

Above the calculated energy on the pig should have been about 2250 FP which is not that much, but
weird things happen when you push barnes tipped bullets up in the mid 3000 fps and up area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keeki

its gonna take x amount of energy to push given object through a given target regardless of velocity. Lets say it takes 900lbs of energy...

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Energy is a function of velocity and pounds are not a unit of energy.

I really do sometimes wonder how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

uj

For me that would be how many Pigs can dance on the head of a pin

It has been a rule of exterior balistics for decades thet it is dangerous to purposely limit penetration on live targets.if you don't reach the vitals you just wound. Both velocity and inertia rounds kill. Just in differentr ways. I tend towards heavier bullets. Two holes make better blood trails.

i've personally killed deer, antelope, and elk with heavier 30-06 bullets 168 grn hornady sst's to be exact and let me tell you if they took any steps on impact it was because they were in mid stride. Now if i want to step up causing large wound channels for animals such as bears i will go to the slower velocicity and heavier 200grn hornady interlocks in my 35 whelen. All in all i agree with everyone else use what works best for you across the board. In accuracy, and most importantly in my mind confidence in your weapon of choice that it will get the job done.

Tammons all I can say about Barnes Bullets is simply that I tried them for over 10 years but could never get them to open up on big game animals or when shot into the stock tank. However, the biggest pain in the butt was trying to get them to shoot small little groups on targets at the range. I know I spent at least a 1,000 dollars over the 15 years I played around with those bullets not counting my time at the bench and the Range mind you. Perhaps it is just the fact that my rifles then were model 70 Winchesters in 243 Win, 270 Win, 300 win mag, .338 Win mag, 375H&H & 375-Wby! Now days I simply shoot Sierra on paper, Hornady for varmints/predators. Nosler Partitions, Swift A Frames and Woodleigh in my big bores.

Now I don't believe it is wasted energy but then again I am no phyics teacher! I certainly do like an exit wound on all big game animals. Blood on the ground makes for easy tracking and recovery of the animal. I have stated this many times over the years, an animal shot through both shoulders is NOT going very far at all.

Barnes bullets are tricky to dial in and they definitely dont group as tight as some other bullets.
I dont care for the non tipped versions, but IMO the newer tipped bullets are superb on game and more accurate.
They open up faster, but you still have to watch your shot distance. That is one thing that is nice about the 95 gr bullet.
It is designed to open at a lower speed.

"Is over penetration wasted energy?"


Absolutely, positively...NO! IT IS NOT WASTED ENERGY!

An exit hole is always a plus when you need to trail an animal and is something I always want.

Happy bloodtrails everyone!

This is just my 2 cents based on 20+ years of killing Im sure 100+ deer with everything from: 12Ga. slugs, 30-06 w/ 150 gr. tips, 300 win. mag. w/ 150 gr. tips, 7mm-08 w/ 140 gr. SGK, Nos. Bal tip, 250 Sav. w/ 100gr. SGK, .357 pistol w/ 140gr. xtp handloads, etc. (sure Im leaving some out) and then the much debated .223 w/ 65gr. Sierra Game kings.

Here is my non- scientific, yet very accurate observation: Everything except the .223- all deer that were hit properly (behind the shoulder in a heart/ lung shot w/ no major bone like shoulder or spine) being hit- 90+ percent of them, buck hard, and whatever way they are pointed or the impact spins them to, they dig their feet in and run flat out till all oxygen is gone and fall over dead- 20-80ish or so yds away. Hit a major bone- spine, shoulder/ s, they drop, maybe flop around till dead or you finish them off w/ back up pistol or whatever.
About 6 years ago I started hunting w/ my AR (18" bbl 1:7 twist, SPR- special purpose rifle configuration- collapable stock, full length gas tube, etc.) w/ in my opinion, one of the best bullets for thicker skinned game w/ a .223- the Sierra 65gr game king handload at about 3100fps at the muzzle. Killed 15 deer with it. Initially just took it for something new to hunt with and just to fill doe tags on the last day of our season here in NC. Here are the results, they amazed me: All but one neck shot were heart/ lung shots from 50-165yds. 11 of the 15 deer (including the neck shot) dropped right there like they were hit w/ a hammer. Layed still, then maybe kicked a few times and died. The others did exactly what all the others did w/ the larger/ heavier calibers, bucked, ran, died.
I have to draw the conclusion that there is something to the hydrostatic shock, energy dump theory, or whatever happens inside of something when that little bullet goes in and shreads everything in the chest cavity. Prob. 1/2 the shots didn't have an exit hole. Some of the exit holes were multiple smaller holes or they were large single holes. Either way, with our smaller deer here in NC, that combination of .223/ 1:7 twist, 65gr. SGK killed those deer in a way I have never seen- even w/ 12ga slugs or a 300 win mag at 40 yards w/ a proper hit behind the shoulder.
Would I take the AR on anything like a trophy buck hunt, hunt up north or in the mid west for a larger, heavier deer w/ bigger bones, etc.- No way since I have lots of other rifle choices. They all killed them, but I do believe that like the .300 Win mag, energy is unused as the bullet zips thru them, etc. But if a non perfect shot happened, large bone hit, etc. the larger calibers are the proper choice. They all died and in my opinion all would be very good choices for the ethical, responsible hunter. I picked my shot, etc. and am experienced, etc. so the .223 was devastating and killed in a way I have never witnessed in 20+ years of hunting

Savageboy much of what you posted is also my experience with deer and several caliber rifles in the past 30 years or better. I kind of think Uncle Buck summed it up in his post. I really does not make a bit of difference, I like exit holes myself. If it is a trophy animal, I have always aimed for taking out both shoulders and that keeps em in close by without having to track animals.