Out of true scope mount holes vs barrel?

So this question is an outgrowth of a conversation I just had with the owner of Stockade Gun Stocks. I was unaware but he indicated that a lot of older 110's had barrel threads that are out of true with the centerline of the receiver. I happen to have an old LA 110 that has a scope to barrel misalignment which I have always assumed was the result of the scope mounting holes being out of alignment with the centerline, but now I'm wondering if it's the barrel...

I guess my question is does it matter which it is and how would one easily differentiate between the two? Assuming it's the barrel out of alignment, is there any reason to not just compensate by using an adjustable windage scope mount to match the centerline of the barrel instead of the receiver?

Many thanks!

Like you have been thinking, I too would bet on scope base threads being off center before barrel threads. I guess it’s possible but hasn’t really been too widely talked about.
Either way, a set of Burris signature Zee rings with offset inserts should line it up. The inserts can be used for horizontal adjustment as well.

Regardless of which, it’s pretty much the reason for having a floating bolt head.

If you have a good straight edge you can find out. Just line it up on the side of the receiver on both sides and see if the muzzle is in the 'center'.

Will it still shoot? Probably, and might be as accurate as you need it to be depending on how far off it is.

Yep, been using zee rings to good effect for years on this receiver. I just don't like how fiddly they can be. The straghtedge idea also occurred to me this morning, but thank you for the suggestion. Glad to know I'm on the right track.

This is an older rifle that's pretty beat up and I've never liked the OG stock ergonomics, so it's slated for an overhaul into a 6.5 chambering that is yet to be determined (254 win mag?... 6.5-300 wby?.... Something crazier?... Decisions decisions!). But I'm going to put some effort into making sure the receiver is worthy of investing in before I start! If any of you have suggestions for other areas of wear or trouble that I should look at please let me know!

If it passes the 'simple' test, and if you want to invest a lot of money in it, like a high end barrel, then get the action trued. It is a fairly small price to pay for such an investment. The person doing the work can tell you if it is too 'wonky' to work with.

Has the barrel been removed before? It is easy enough to put a slight or severe twist in the receiver if done wrong. Managed to straighten the one I twisted.

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Originally Posted by Blue Avenger

Has the barrel been removed before? It is easy enough to put a slight or severe twist in the receiver if done wrong. Managed to straighten the one I twisted.

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It doesn't show signs of prior disassembly, but I literally bought it at a yard sale around a decade ago so who knows?. I'll check for twist as well. thanks for the warning.

I'm planning on pinning the locknut before removal so I can reinstall without adjustment if I ever decide to go back to 30-06... Any reason not to do that? It's been a few years since I checked into it, but as I recall that was a trick that some of the folks making DIY multi caliber setups were using.

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Originally Posted by charlie b

If it passes the 'simple' test, and if you want to invest a lot of money in it, like a high end barrel, then get the action trued. It is a fairly small price to pay for such an investment. The person doing the work can tell you if it is too 'wonky' to work with.

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Not investing too much. I have kids so all my hobbies are strictly on a shoestring budget! Basically just planning for a new stock, new optics, and new barrel/bolt head to accomadate a different caliber. It'll be the best that I can afford but if the build goes over $1000 including new dies I've done something dreadfully wrong.

Just curious what's involved in getting the action trued? I've done a bit of shadetree gunsmithing over the years and used to be a professional metalsmith. If it' doesn't involve a mill I may have the ability to do the work myself.

Pinning a Barrel Nut to each individual Barrel can work, but it’s impractical. You still need all the Go/NoGo Gauges and need to set each one initially. I’ve said this before: The Savage 110 is not a viable Switch Barrel setup. Yes, you can swap between barrels in the same parang cartridge family easily & even to another caliber/cartridge with completely different parent case as well. (granted it’s a bit more involved.) But it’s not a swap on the fly like a true Switch Barrel.

I hear you, I have at switch barrel T/C already, and honestly even that is a little bit of a pain because the nut is so big that the optics interfere with it and have to be unmounted. (I'll clearance the barrel nuts to fix that eventually). I was just channeling some old research and wondering if that would make future reinstallation easier. I'm not planning for regular swaps or multiple calibers so probably I'm just complicating things unnecessarily.

The Action still needs removal from stock & yes, optics, rings & rail need all need removed from the Savage 110 Action as well in order to swap the barrel. Looking to do things correctly, is much more important than looking to accomplish things quickly. ;)

Just some light viewing. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiTQHGEGkn0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoP-X9FknNk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22l-PWxqB4E

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Originally Posted by hal9000

Not investing too much. I have kids so all my hobbies are strictly on a shoestring budget! Basically just planning for a new stock, new optics, and new barrel/bolt head to accomadate a different caliber. It'll be the best that I can afford but if the build goes over $1000 including new dies I've done something dreadfully wrong.

Just curious what's involved in getting the action trued? I've done a bit of shadetree gunsmithing over the years and used to be a professional metalsmith. If it' doesn't involve a mill I may have the ability to do the work myself.

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You are money ahead to just shoot it and enjoy the rifle for what it is. Im not expert but last I heard a floating bolt head solves most issues.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Regardless of which, it’s pretty much the reason for having a floating bolt head.

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This ^^

The floating bolt head may help with offset. What about axial misalignment? If the firing pin is rigid, exactly how much can a floating bolt head help(bushing your bolt head might kill any benefit)? Looking further it only floats in one axis, perpendicular to the retaining pin. Seems to me that might help with even contact on the lugs...Then how much float can happen, Or does an modular bolt system reduce machining cost and reduce cost and inventory. Aren't we really talking about the loose tolerance in the bolt body to raceway allowing for some offset( but not of axis). Why do some rifles have a primer strike so far off center? Seems to me only the loose tolerances allow for any alignment correction. I'm not an engineer or an expert but those are my questions when I hear something like the bolt head fixes everything.

And then there is the progressive scope alignment issue with a barrel tenon that is not in the same axis as the action/scope mount screws. Floating Bolt head wont fix that either.

These are the reasons most custom action makers make everything parallel, perpendicular and concentric, even makers like Bighorn/Zermatt who claim a floating bolt head. Savages are probably accurate because of them straitening their barrels more than any other factor. Again just a layman's thoughts and beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

The floating bolt head may help with offset. What about axial misalignment? If the firing pin is rigid, exactly how much can a floating bolt head help(bushing your bolt head might kill any benefit)? Looking further it only floats in one axis, perpendicular to the retaining pin. Seems to me that might help with even contact on the lugs...Then how much float can happen, Or does an modular bolt system reduce machining cost and reduce cost and inventory. Aren't we really talking about the loose tolerance in the bolt body to raceway allowing for some offset( but not of axis). Why do some rifles have a primer strike so far off center? Seems to me only the loose tolerances allow for any alignment correction. I'm not an engineer or an expert but those are my questions when I hear something like the bolt head fixes everything.

And then there is the progressive scope alignment issue with a barrel tenon that is not in the same axis as the action/scope mount screws. Floating Bolt head wont fix that either.

These are the reasons most custom action makers make everything parallel, perpendicular and concentric, even makers like Bighorn/Zermatt who claim a floating bolt head. Savages are probably accurate because of them straitening their barrels more than any other factor. Again just a layman's thoughts and beliefs.

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Fair enough, I'm no expert either but I wouldn’t dump unnecessary money into a savage action that hasn’t been diagnosed with a problem.

If you pin it before removal I do not think you will get it off. I think things will be to wedged. It won't be the half inch of nut threads but the inch and a quarter of barrel threads in the action you have to turn.

There is that. Although it would likely be ok if you set it up under light torque. Problem there is,Barrel Nut Barrels respond better with more torque.

It’s just not a good platform for this. It’s not an AR!

Scope mounting holes NOT TRUE to the center line of the barrel on the older Savage rifles??? Say it ISN'T SO!! You just burst my bubble!!
2 piece scope mounts with a "rear windage" adjustment. Did that way back when. No more problems. Can you say shoots BUG HOLES? :cool:

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Originally Posted by charlie b

Just some light viewing. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiTQHGEGkn0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoP-X9FknNk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22l-PWxqB4E

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Thanks for those. Pretty basic in principle and easy enough to check for Being out of tolerance at least. I sold my lathe a few years ago but still have access to one of truing is necessary.

And the barrel could be less than straight.

A lot of the older actions were distorted from heat treat, typically banana shaped. Ideally, the biggest percentage were machined within tolerance, but with a heavy hand at the belt sander, the rear flat and the od were affected to the point of being out of whack.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

A lot of the older actions were distorted from heat treat, typically banana shaped. Ideally, the biggest percentage were machined within tolerance, but with a heavy hand at the belt sander, the rear flat and the od were affected to the point of being out of whack.

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...and we have seen more than a few that someone stuck a tool through the ejection and mag ports to support the action while banging on a barrel nut wrench. Then selling the twisted action/rifle to recoup their investment.

I have a new Savage 110 that shoots further to the right than my scope has windage adjustment. The rifle it a tactical model ln 6mm creedmore that came with a 20moa rail so I don't know if the problem is the rifle or the rail. I have been able to correct the problem by using Burris rings. My efforts to troubleshoot the problem was frustrated by my inability to find bases using 8-40 screws everything I've found has 6-48screws.

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Originally Posted by Tlf65

I have a new Savage 110 that shoots further to the right than my scope has windage adjustment. The rifle it a tactical model ln 6mm creedmore that came with a 20moa rail so I don't know if the problem is the rail or the rifle. I have been able to correct the problem by using Burris rings. My efforts to troubleshoot the problem was frustrated by my inability to find bases using 8-40 screws everything I've found has 6-48screws.

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There’s definitely a problem! No way should it outpace any scope for windage. Do you need 2-piece bases? I’d recommend going with a 1-piece Picatinny rail & rings. Easy to find & fits the look of the rifle better. I use Talley rails in 20moa.