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Hi new guy here. I have a Savage 12 LPV DBM, 26" fluted barrel, Accu-stock/Accutrigger in 204. Lately I have been having problems opening the bolt. Sometimes it opens easily and others I can raise the handle but have to bump it open with my hand.. Shooting hand loads, and have tried using minimum loads, but it still does it at times.. Haven't found any answers yet, so I am asking here.. Really no rhyme or reason to this but I'd like to eliminate the issue.
Are you full length resizing your brass each time?
Primary extraction?
FL or NS die makes no difference though I prefer a FL die sets. You need to bump your shoulders back a bit and check your brass length, bottleneck cases (most calibers) grow with each firing. With some dies, bumping shoulder back can be an issue, some are not. It all depends on the die maker and if you are using a bushing die or a fixed bore die, but any die can be 'made' to bump by modifying the base (the closer the base is to the sizing bore, the more 'bump' you can obtain). Myself, I like to bump my shoulder back 0.002 (measured with a Hornady Headspace gauge and calipers. No amount or degree of bumping will overcome a case that is too long. Cases must be between the nominal and maximum COAL (Case overall length, not Cartridge overall length to function properly.
That is your issue btw. The shoulder datum is to tight a fit in the chamber causing heavy bolt lift. Take a look at your bolt face as well. Telltale brass streaks on the bolt face is indicative of an headspace issue that bumping will eliminate in 99% of all cases.
My rule of thumb is I always use premium cases (Lapua or Norma) and anneal after the third loading with no exceptions and discard when the pockets feel 'loose'.
Because I use only bushing dies (and I machine my own bushings), I remove the expander balls from my dies entirely. No need to work the brass twice. An expended case had already expanded the case mouth so why run it through an expander ball, only to have the neck section of the die close it up again. Brass hardens each time you work it. I prefer to only work it once.
Thanx for the replies.. I full length size every time and trim to length. I'll check the face for brass.. To clarify: It's not that the bolt is hard to lift. It isn't. The problem is after the handle is raised the bolt will not slide back.. I thump it a few times with my hand and it opens.. I loaded some new brass and had issues still. Note, it's not every round.. Sometimes it doesn't occur for 15-20 rounds..
I read elsewhere that one fella had this problem and cured it by replacing the bolt handle.. On a whim I swapped bolts with my son's Savage 12 in 223. I fired close to 200 rounds today P-dawging and not one issue.. One box of reloads was on it's fourth reloading.. Now I am wondering if the issue isn't just the bolt handle.. FWIW there are a lot of people with this issue it seems, as I was googling ..
FWIW I am using a Redding competition die set. I am familiar with bushing dies, just do not own any
gets my vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Quote:
Originally Posted by olddav
Can you guys expound on this?? Please/
Ok just googled primary extraction.. Found a video on this site explaining it.. So now I need to replicate the problem and look for primary extraction. So if this is the issue what's to be done about it?
http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...ary-ExtractionQuote:
Originally Posted by zilla
In the Article Bill PA mentions his fix and many have used it.
Do you understand the primary extraction consisting of the bolt handle and the rear baffle relationship?
Redding is a good die, I have a few in pistol calibers. However the base on a Redding, just like an RCBS is long to the point where, even with an interference fit between the shellholder and the die base, it's impossible to bump a shoulder. There are 2 solutions, you can purchase (from Sinclair) a reduced height shellholder. The machined distance from the top face of the shellholder is less that an off the shelf (standard one and you can buy them in 2 thousands increments or, you can grind off the base of the die a bit, you can even do that with a grinding wheel if you are careful. I chuck mine upside down on a surface grinder in the shop. You need to check the bolt face for brass transfer that will be the giveaway as to a headspace issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by zilla
Typically, when I build a load for any rifle (I just happen to build loads for a lot of clients), I always start with a no bump situation on new sized brass and work up from there ascertaining bolt lift, drawback and brass transfer and then start bumping the shoulder to where the symptoms disappear and no more. That is typically 0.002-0.003 (measured with the appropriate headspace gauge).
I have no idea how hot (or mild) you load and don't care really, but, 4 reloads is pushing a case, especially if you are resizing with an expander ball on the die stem. That neck is getting brittle.
All my long range rifles and medium range ones as well have dedicated custom made die sets, made by John Whidden expressly for that rifle. I send John 4 fired cases and he machines the die to match the fired case dimensions or to a reamer print. I'm of the understanding that RCBS will do the same with their Gold Medal dies. That way, you size with a die that has internal dimensions exactly that of the fireformed case because every chamber is different, just like fingerprints and stock dies are made to SAMMI dimensions which probably aren't the dimensions of your actual chamber.
I do the same with my client's rifles. When I do a build I order a custom die and that dies goes with the rifle plus I do all the load workups using that one die.
Your bolt face will tell the story. Even faint brass transfer is a headspace issue. There should be none unless you are really running hot loads and then issues usually show up with the primer cratering.
People attribute all sorts of issues to everything other than inadequate headspace and headspacing is an easy fix. I know a guy who literally knocked his bolt handle off trying to get the rifle to come out of battery.
Iam sure I will flamed on this
but the last 3 that I had problems with , the bolt body was out of spec
the relief was not cut deep enought
Which can cause primary extraction issues also. Flame retardant is generously handed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by drybean
No this is all new to me.. Never had this issue with any fire arm before now..Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidecarFlip
Just looked at the bolt head. Using a jewelers loupe, no brass of any kind is present. As far as dies, what I have is what I use.. I'll look into the Sinclair shell holders..
Ordered the shell holder set. I'll give it a try..
Edit. Ordered the wrong thing and cancelled. I cannot find a reduced shell holder set at Sinclair. The one they have actually is thicker in .002" increments.
SidecarFlip, you have some good information in there. Johns dies are top shelf for sure. Definitely not the the expert on the matter but some things I have experienced in reloading. Annealing will solve spring back on hard brass. A case that has long head space prior to being fired will make it very difficult to close the bolt.
Drybean, What dimension/relief was out of spec?
zilla, To test the primary extraction you need a feeler gauge set. Otherwise you might try to anneal your brass. Sidecar is correct that the brass may be getting hard. If you are not experiencing a hard to close bolt, your case head space is probably not too long. Following sidecars advice and size for the .002-.003 clearance at the shoulder is always a good practice. Lots of tools to check that dimension.
So how do you check it?? Primary extraction?
Robinhood posted this earlier, ck linkQuote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
For a visual ck this out
http://youtu.be/x-1ddHYW6wA
I watched that. Now if someone can explain what is sgoing on. That is pretty much what happens with my bolt..
Update. took the rifle to the range to check my zero. Also took my son and his Savage 12 in 223 Rem. Decided to swap bolts to see what happened. His bolt works flawlessly in my Rifle. Mine in his is having the same issue.. Me thinks something about the bolt is FUBAR. Probly the primary extraction business. Not sure what to do about it..
The rear baffle has a cam at the bottom left hand corner, it acts in concert with the bolt handle to pull the expired case from the chamber. Converting rotational motion to lateral motion pulling the case rearward (freeing the case so the operator can pull the bolt back ejecting the spent round).
If the clearance between the bolt and baffle are too great the cam will not produce the needed rearward motion. You can shim the baffle (between the baffle and action) once you know how much is required (that's where the feeler gauges come into play).
Hopefully this makes some sense
Switch the bolt handles bolt to bolt then try both their actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by zilla
Bill
OK, will do.. Makes sense..
I may get flamed as well, but I have a different take on this.
I have two Savage rifles (3 now but have shot just the two, third this weekend). One is a long action, the other shot.
One is a year old, one is at least 6 years old, as much as 10 or so (used, shot little) .
Both exhibited the problem after some rounds down the tube.
I understand the primary extraction aspect, but to work fine then not with little wear is??????
I am now cleaning my chambers very specifically and carefully.
Since I did I have had little of it occur.
I do think that the bore guide keeps you from doing that so I go around it and do a chamber clean.
I do need to get the gauges with me and see what happens when if I occurs, but its turned into such a seldom problem and I have to find my gauges or bring them in from work. .
I think there is more to this than just a dirty chamber, but still puzzling over what the relationships are and causes, it may be marginal extraction pushed over the edge, but I don't think Primary extraction specifically is the issue. I am also looking at re-size new vs older brass etc.
I suspect Savage has pretty tight chambers contributing to this. Some and some (if true) , tighter chamber is a more accurate one as well.
Could be wrong, been there, done that, have boxes of T shirts. My spidey senses say there is more to this than sometimes is offered up as a flat covers all response and maybe more accurately, primary extraction issue is a symptom not a cause.
I just got back from the range.. Changed bolt handles. No problems with either rifle.. Gotta go back out tomorrow when the wind dies down and finish zero-ing.. We'll see how it goes.. I am waiting for the problem to occur again so I can look at the rear of the bolt now that I think I know what to look for..
Zilla, Take a feeler gauge set with you to the range. If the bolt sticks, start with a .010" between the rear baffle and the face of the action to see if the bolt will open fully and extract the case. Go up in .005" increments until it opens.
In this video the guy places the feeler gauge in the wrong location but it is an example of how to do it. the feeler gauge should go on the other side of the baffle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-1ddHYW6wA
you can also surface your shellholder measure the thickness with caliper or mic use a flat surface granite plate or glass, psa sandpaper 320 grit hold shellholder flat and start sanding. go slow because you can take .015 off quick but then you can adjust die to spec. That's how I do it to go deeper for bumping shoulders and you can shim under the case in the shellholder on ram if you only need a smidge
Always keep your chamber clean and spotless if possible and keep your cases clean so they will grip the chamber walls after primer ignition. greae your cam at the back of the bolt also this helps with lift also and your lugs
I kinda figured it would or at least for the time being. As the parts wear in it may or may not happen again but we'll cross that bridge when or if we come to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by zilla
Bill
That's my problem with purely primary extraction as the base issue. It comes and goes.
Other factors at play that look to be the base issue, seems to wide spread to be as simple as the cam.
Comment read at one times says current Savage but the used I got was at least 6 years old and SN range looks to be even older and it did it.
Primary extraction is there because cases don't always release from the chamber. If in the event you stick a case and you do not have primary extraction you put a rod in the bore and hammer it out. All things considered primary extraction trumps rod and hammer.
We seem to be talking at ends here.
Yes there is the extraction cam system, aka Primary extraction. there is no disagreement about that or what it does.
The $64 question is what causes the random sticky extraction issues?
Obviously the idea behind the gauge is to give it more length to the extraction, may even work
Is that the answer or is there a separate sticky case issue involved.
I can see a run of it, but same issue across two guns no fewer than 10 and more like 15 years apart as well as recurrent with others?
I don't think its the cam or its action, I think there is another aspect (or more than one) to it that stops the extraction from occurring.
If another aspect gets involved and the amount of force it has is not enough, you can make your lever longer, that does not explain the problem it may overcome it.
I just wanna shoot gophers...
In the mean time I am waiting for it to occur once again. This time I have a good idea what to look for..
To explain why it happens and why this one does and that one doesn't. It is all to do with stacked tolerances. When all the stacking is headed towards a problem then just a little more (sticky brass) problem and bang you can't get the brass out. If it is stacked the other way it pretty much means short of blowing the gun up it will extract all the time. Most fall somewhere in between. Bolt body has a tolerance, bolt handle has one, rear baffle has one and action has a tolerance, and don't forget the bolt and cross pin. Put all that together in the negative and you have an issue and you may not have to have all bad just some at the max or maybe something got past the checks. You are dealing in thousandths of an inch here. Not something you can just look at and say that looks to small.
I suspect Savage like every other manufacturer runs their chamber reamers to the end before discarding them.Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
Rough Chamber: Certainly a possibility. I don't see brass marks so am tentatively discounting it for my guns, hope to get a cheap scope and get a good look.
That does not mean its not a factor in others. I continue to think this has several aspects to it, not all of which apply to any given problem.
As for the following, while that can be a factor in precision fit, the cam action does not fall into that category IMNSHO
I don't have my gauges, but the at full closed bolt between the baffle and either side (frame or bolt) is around .050 to .060. The cam action itself is at least another .060 and maybe as much as .070.
That clearly is not thousandths, and it would not be a marginal issue for cam operation. You want plenty (though you don't want to rip the head off the case)
I have seen the stacked tolerance issue in the mfg process of cylinder sleeves and pistons, in that case the mfg elected to match up the looser sleeves with the large pistons and the spec pistons with the spec sleeves. One way to do it but certainly confused a very experienced mechanic as well as myself as a new to diesels mechanic (he did figure it out, we did have to dismantle what we had done to that point).
This by comparisons is not a fine tolerance aspect. Bolt fit yes, all the rest with the locking lugs engagement yes, but extraction is a pretty robust and rough business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl39
That is always a distinct possibility on any production firearm. Only one way to ascertain that however and that is with a borescope.Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
I had an interesting experience with a vintage Smith and Wesson imported Husquvarna small action Mauser I bought in unfired condition at an estate sale a while back, it would chamber a SAMMI resized round but would extract hard, not every time, just once in a while and that wasn't even firing it, just loading one in battery. Interestingly. there was never a mark on any case that hung...
I was puzzled so I took a 'look see' inside the chamber, paying close attention to the walls and especially the shoulder datum area. What I saw was a tooling mark where many years ago, the gunsmith who reamed the barrel either stopped the lathe before extracting the reamer or turned the coolant off prematurely and it left a burr in the datum area. It took some time to find and was even harder to remove because I wasn't able to use one of my existing reamers to 'touch up' the imperfection. I had to work the burr out with lapping compound and hardwood dowel rods turned to the approximate shoulder taper. Took some time but I got rid of the burr and the extraction issue.
I own a Gradient Lens Hawkeye as well as a cheap HF digital inspection camera and I actually like the HF camera better. It won't fit everywhere the Gradient will but I don't have to worry about buggering up a 700 buck scope either.
I read the review on here about the Lyman unit and while it's a nice utility scope, it's still 4 times as much as the HF scope is.
Not withstanding. my most frequent use of a cheapo scope is visually checking my cleaning regimen, especially breaking in a new tube, where building copper and timely removal of it is imperative. I've explored the mysteries of various 'elixr's' for copper removal and their claims and actual real time performance and how they impact shot placement, especially that first 'flyer'.
....and...Quote:
I've explored the mysteries of various 'elixr's' for copper removal and their claims and actual real time performance and how they impact shot placement, especially that first 'flyer'.
SidecarFlip: Great information, no to mention great patience to work the burr down. Phew.
I too am very interested in your results. Currently using Bore Tech Eliminator and Carbon Killer 2000, they work better than previous but don't have the tool to look down the tube so only going by what's coming out and how well they clean up.
Your right but when you only need 10-15 thousandths to have enough primary extraction then stacking 3 or 4 thousandths on each part adds up.Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
Using your own example if your sleeve is .003 to large and the cylinder is bored .003 small you are now .006 out of spec. Just simple math.
In a perfect world the brass would spring back and never stick to the chamber walls but the world ain't perfect so one needs enough primary extraction to overcome sticky brass and/or a dirty chamber. Keeping the chamber clean will help but unless you are cleaning the chamber after every shot you only have one shot with a clean chamber.
Something is not adding up, we aren't dealing with with .003, if the .015 is accurate then the .060 (or better) I am getting as above and beyond the baffle gap is more than enough.
I do fully get the not perfect world and a good force needed.
You are forcing me to take my feeler gauges home, fine, I will measure that free closed gap, then take the handle off an measure the cam distance and see how much the extraction cam distance is. I hope everyone is happy now. :frusty::cheer2:
.035 for primary extraction
All I know is that after swapping handles I haven't had the problem
The cheap (50 buck) Harbor Freight inspection camera will serve you well, I use one all the time. It's not a Hawkeye (Gradient Lens), but it's not 700 bucks either. One problem I encounter with BTE is a false copper reading even using a Dewey CF rod because the end of the rod is brass so I threaded an aluminum rod for the final pas of a patch puller, that eliminates any false reading. I've always used No. 9 for powder removal and the wife bought me a quart for Christmas last so that is what I use.Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
I had a customer give me a bottle of Sweets and I tried it one time and that was enough. It smells vile and while it does remove copper, it's had to get by the smell. BTE is odorless.
Be careful with BTE and ALWAYS use a bore guide. BTE will do bad things to trigger groups if it gets in there and is left in there. A good fitting bore guide is a necessity.
BTE sells nylon bore brushes (you have to use a nylon brush with BTE) for a price but you can buy the Tipton nylon ones a lot cheaper. Hard to find but I've found them on Amazon. I uses nothing but plastic jags and patch pullers.
If the rifle (with the burr) was an ordinary cookie cutter rifle, I would have traded it off. It isn't. S&W imported less than 1500 into this country in the 60's and the switched to a lesser quality Howa made design and the rifle is pristine and very collectable, plus it shoots very well as in MOA at 200 yards, not bad for a rifle that is 50 + years old. Chuck Hawks sure likes them....
I have some pictures of it but I have no idea how to post pictures on this forum....
Thank you, have to digest.
Have you tried or compared the Carbon Killer and Bore Tech to the BTE?
Orange smell with the Carbon Killer or none with them. Wife was having an issue with Hoppes smell and Hoppes was not as effective as I wanted for these guns.
I am one of those people that if there is glue tis everyone. Both the CK and BT are not attacking anything so for me that's good.
Mine went back and forth and lately none so a head scratcher though again cleaning the bore consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by zilla
Let us know if it comes back.
thank you, I thought I might get a response before I did something drastic!Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
That's a pretty good movement. What an odd phenomena and erratic as well.
Are you using a chamber guide when cleaning? My thought was perhaps some cleaning chemicals are remaining in the chamber and are causing the random stickiness.
+1 on the camera BTW. I have a Snap-0n digital borescope camera. Only about a hundred bucks on Ebay, used. WELL worth the money to be able to look into the chamber and throat. Also look into muzzle end and see copper build up quite clearly, or to verify your chemicals are removing the copper.
There are other fairly cheap 5mm endoscope cameras that will plug into your laptop with a usb port. I think I paid $18.00 for one that will fit down the bore of my 223. Got it on Ebay. Came with 15 ft of waterproof cable. Great for locating Crappie and catfish too.
Zilla a couple of things that ive learned is to after resizing the brass is to always check it by using a headspace gauge. Also don't use mixed brands of brass
I am using all Winchester brass.. Full length resize. Trim as needed. Not sure about the head space gauge, but I do have a Lyman cartridge checker that I use. I am anal about getting all the solvents out of the chamber.. Wipe Out is terribly sticky if not totally removed.. I just finished a very thorough cleaning and am ready to try again. Love to have a bore
scope but **** they are expensive.. If I do buy one it won't be the cheap one. I am looking at a hawk eye on clearance at Brownells now..