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I just picked up my first rifle, savage 10 in 6.5 creedmoor. Looking through load data, almost everyone uses h4350. The only bad thing about that is none of my local stores carry it. They have all sorts of other powders from hodgdon and others. If I order powder online the price almost doubles because of the hazmat shipping.
What are some alternatives? Or should I ask my local store to order some 4350?
Reloader 17 would be the next powder I'd try, followed by IMR4350, AA4350, Hybrid 100v, H414/WW760.
All of those are relatively close in burn rate to H-4350.
Thanks! I won't ask for recipes because that's half the fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotolds442
I'll see if they have any of those and if they can order H4350
IMR4350 will work but is more temp sensitive. The new Enduron powder IMR4451 is in the same burn rate and is temp insensitive like the H4350. it will be much more readily available as well.
4451 is also supposed to match H4350 performance.
If neither the h4350 or imr 4451 are available locally should I go with 4451?
I was playing with 4451 in my 260 last fall for a while. Velocity wise it was within 50-75 of the lot# of H4350 I was using. Accuracy was the same.
Bill
You mean if you have to order powder? Order the 4451 and the main reason is supply. You will be able to find it easier down the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by nhyrum
Yes, if either me or the local store had to special order itQuote:
Originally Posted by Rob01
4831SC is good sub...
Remember the "temp insensitive" business is MOSTLY marketing.
Extruded powders can only be that way, when used in the application they are designed for; it is NOT a universal application. If they don't tell you what cartridge and bullet it was designed for, then you shouldn't believe the rest of the fluff.
2700/414/760(same powder) does work very well. RL-17 works very well, and Superformance is phenominal. Superformance in canister form, was designed around the 30-06, so not surprising it works with heavies in the Creed. That powder is temp stable with 140's, and is VERY progressive in burning curve, RL17 is somewhat progressive. So what that means with Supr, is that you can run about 50fps off max, but operate at 50,000 psi!! Pretty cool.
Imr 4350
The local place has rl17 and imr4350. I think I'm gonna get rl17 first and try the imr later
Hodgdon web site shows allot of different powders to use but superformance is not one of them. Varget, xbr8208, 4166 just to name a few are on there. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
Varget and the similar burning 4166 are a little fast for the 140s. They will work well in the 120 range though.
I just picked up a 6.5 creedmoor but haven't started researching reloading for it yet. Will shoot hornady 140 match for a bit to build up some brass then start my search on powders and pick up some dies.
Shooting the 140grn bullets the H4350 burn rate is where you want to look go get really good velocity and accuracy. IMR4350, IMR4451, RL17, etc. Some use 4831 but I think it's a little too slow to get good velocity. You can get good accuracy from other powders both slower and faster but you usually lose some velocity. The round was developed around H4350 so it is a good place to be.
What rifle you get? Also check out the 6.5 Creedmoor forum at http://www.65creedmoor.com/ Lots of good info.
So the lighter the pill, the faster burning the powder needs to be? Makes sense. I haven't decided on a bullet weight yet. I wish I could buy a half dozen different bullets and ladder test themQuote:
Originally Posted by Rob01
i got the savage 10t from Cabela's. I haven't actually gotten it yet, they had to order them from savage, but he called me yesterday saying it got in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob01
Doesn't need to be but the faster powders will work better with the lighter bullets than the heavier 140s. You can use 4350 rate powders as well as the original 120 AMAX load was 44.5grns of H4350. It was changed a few years in to Varget for a little less recoil as the round was used mostly for shorter range matches.
Cool. That rifle should do you well.
Varget works just fine with 140s, but you'd sacrifice 50-100fps compared to H4350.
May try both and chrono them to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
At least that much velocity especially with longer barrels.
Been using varget with 178 gr bullets with great success in my 308. Better than 4064 that I started with. Now I stock up on varget every time I see it on the shelves, which isn't to often. that powder is like gold.
Really? What was your powder weight?Quote:
Originally Posted by bearcatrp
I use Varget with my 308 178s also. Been using it for years and it's my go to .308 powder. Depending on brass used I use between 44-45grns. Most find their higher node in the 43-45grn area. Hodgdon lists 42 as min and 45 as max with the 175/178 and Varget.
Now to primers. What do you think of cci br2 benchrest rifle primers? Will there be a difference between those and their large rifle primers?
Don't use either so can't comment but in the Federal 210M vs 210 I can tell you there is no performance difference in any of the cartridges i have tested them in.
So it's most likely not going to be worth the extra 4 cents a primer? That sounds silly and neglegable, but is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob01
In the Federals it isn't but don't know about the CCI. Buy one of each and try them out. Load the exact same loads and shoot them over the chrono and for accuracy. That's how I tested the Feds.
Not enough to warrant the price...I shoot all of the primers mentioned and several others...the CCI200s are great primers and are my go to when starting load development. Once I find a load I will load the same charge and try different primers to see if things tighten up.Quote:
Originally Posted by nhyrum
Thanks. The 200s are found locally tooQuote:
Originally Posted by LongRange
Thanks for the link. Forgot about them. Savage finally released a 10T in 6.5 creedmoor at cabelas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob01
For the 178 gr hornady match, 43.7 gr of varget using lapua brass. For the 178 gr hornady ELD, 43.9 gr of varget using lapua brass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Do you have chrono data with your 44-45 gr of powder? I thought I was pushing the higher limits with 43.9. Barrel bounces enough to lose scope site on each shot. Didn't see any pressure signs getting to 44 grains but my best groups were with 43.9 with 44.0 a close second. My ballistics app tells me it goes subsonic a little over 1000 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob01
Using Hornady brass and 44grns I am getting 2730fps from a 22" barrel and 2690fps from a 20" barrel. With Winchester brass and the 45grns the numbers were similar.
Make sure you have a good solid shooting position behind the rifle to control the hop as much as possible.
Hodgdon also lists much of their data in CUP, when it has been known for several decades that CUP isn't accurate when used over about 45,000psi.Quote:
Originally Posted by bearcatrp
Pick-up your Hornady manual, and you'll find plenty of data for Superformance in the Creedmoor. Or you can look at any of the Pressure Traces I've posted with it in the Creed.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...ff1293591e.jpg
Well I bought rounds, powder and primers. They only had the rem's I plan on using cci but this is all I could find.
The factory ammo is also just to get me to the range and to give me brass to reload.
Next pay check is going towards a hand primer and another box of ammo
Superformance looks to be ok but reloader-17 looks the best. Never used that before so will start looking for it. I looked at possibly reloading for 243 using superformance but only up to 80 gr bullets. Have a boat load of 243 ammo so don't need to reload for that any time soon. Did order some Hornady 140 gr ELD match since I can't find any around town. Got a free hand gun case for the order. Grafs has it in stock if you need some ammo.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkker
Just picked up some reloader-17 when I was in town. H4350 seems to be like varget, hard to get. I use varget for my 308 bolt. For those of you who have tried varget, did you have to push the limits to get good performace or just not that good of powder to use? Same with superformace, you folks pushing the limits?
To each his own, by all means, but Superformance is much more flexible if you need velocity and not pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by bearcatrp
If you want to try Superformance, it is DIRT cheap from Bruno.
I have 2 lbs I got cheap awhile back. Never used it yet. Flexible? How hot can you push this powder? I know Hornady is cautious when listing loads in the book compared to other books or Hodgdon web site. Is it a clean burning powder? When I start load developement, will start in the middle as usual and work up to see how far I can go.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkker
indeed. I sometimes wish I lived in Phoenix AZ. I frequently go the Ph Az for visits to family members. Walking into that store is deadly. I walk out with massive amounts of components but my wallets been bled dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkker
Has to be done though. I save (at times) upwards of 20% when I shop there as opposed to buying local in southwest Texas.
simple answer...there is no substitute for H4350 LOL...try the RL-17 and super performance and go with what shoots best.
What other rifles use H4350 that its hard to find due to folks hoarding it? Its as bad as varget for the hoarders (i'm one of them).RL-17 and Superformance is all over the place. How about IMR 4451? This is one of the newer powders Hodgdon developed along with 4166, which worked ok in my 308 but nothing spectacular.
most 6 and 6.5mms as well as several others...what i find funny is you guys on the east side have none and its everywhere out west...at least where im at.
another big strain on 4350 is most of the PRS and comp shooters use it.
Crikey!! Lets get you some real info to keep you informed properly here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bearcatrp
1) I find it insanely flexable, as I said. It is an incredibly progressive burning propellant, so flexible is kind of what it does. Last year... maybe that was 2 now... anyhow went to Phoenix and did a bunch of Pressure Trace testing with MZ5. As far as temp stability, it was every bit as stable as H4350, and actually was a little more mild temperamented in the Creed. Remember when someone begins to parrot the "It's an extreme powder" business, an Extruded powder can ONLY be made such under specific conditions. NOT a universal property. Dr. Bramwell has tested this many times.
2) .... As over pressure as you want??? As you know, Very highly calibrated copper crushers used in very carefully controlled test systems with tightly regulated reference loads will "report" pressure swings on the order of 15-20,000 psi; when tested above about 45,000 psi. A random bloke who bought a reloading kit, using off the shelf powder, in a production rifle, using an unknown alloy of brass; ain't magically more accurate at "reading" pressure by staring at the primers. Velocity is what tells you where you are in terms of pressure. Or you can buy a Strain system such as the Pressure Trace II system and see for yourself.
3) No, they really aren't; and Hodgy doesn't do much of their own testing, it's farmed out or calculated. ALL of the ball powders that Hodgy re-sells, come from General Dynamics. Hornady's head ballistician, Dave Emary was a powder creator for GD. He knows what the powders can do and what they are. It's no surprise they have data that Hodgy doesn't know about, or that they began to use piles of GD's powders with high speed, low pressure factory ammo.
4) I don't know what exactly you want here, so lets discuss fouling and you decide. Any of the powders from GD that have always had copper cleaning tin compounds (748, 760, et al) tend to produce very heavy sooty fouling. easy to clean however. Then you have the coated extruded fouling, such as Varget. That fouling "looks" clean, while in fact begin to accumulate Hard Carbon fouling, extremely quickly in small bores. Supr is more like a traditional extruded powder to me. But I also don't clean bores, until accuracy degrades, so take that for what you will.
5) Don't do that. Several reasons, and it ties to the notion of some books being "conservative". No one since the very old A-Squared manual, lists lot numbers of components being tested. Hodgdon has only ever been a surplus blender/reseller, and refuses to list any form of nominal variations of the things they sell. They will only list the caution to "Drop loads 10% when switching lots", there is a very very good reason for that. One of them being moisture. There is a very good article in the newest Norma manual about how radically moisture change(even from a sealed container) can affect burning rates.
As I said, Supr is very progressive. So what that means is that the burning curve will change dramatically with pressure. A traditional or non-progressive powder will have the same burning curve across it's happy pressure range; only the peak or total pressure is different. Not so with Superformance.
To give you a visual, look at the following pressure traces. These are NOT an indication of consistency of the powder. These are for looking at curves and velocities. There was ZERO load work done! This is so you can see the premise only.
4350: within it's happy pressure range, this gets taller or shorter, but doesn't change shape.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...psv6lwcels.png
Superformance at "low pressure" notice the curve and the velocities
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...psvfj221vz.png
Superformance at "high pressure". Again notice the shifted curve, and how little the velocity changes
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...psrbt4dqfy.png
Another point of not pretending that you can "Read" pressure signs. Which case do you think was the high pressure load??
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...psj7wyleqv.jpg
If you said the one on the left is "high pressure", you would be incorrect. Left is from Trace #4. The one on the right is from Trace #2.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...psmopqcu83.png
Appreciate the detailed information. And I did pick the brass on the left as over pressure due to a flatter primer. Everything I have learned on reloading to look for pressure signs is flattened primers and case swipes on the brass. Not the case with the pic you just showed. Please elaborate more. If I am reading your charts right, It seems H4350 to be more consistent. Wrong?
You know Dark, it's funny that those 2 pieces of brass you have there show something I have seen in my 243. Hornady and Winchester brass run the loads I've worked up to without issue, but the RP brass prepped and loaded with the exact same charge, bullet, and primer combo showed heavy bolt lift. I shot a few more in the Hornady brass after the first one with no signs or issues, then another piece of RP brass and the same thing occured. I've sworn off of RP brass for use in the 243 now and only run Hornady or Winchester. Lapua is still to expensive when I tend to lose brass now and again at some of the matches I shoot.
The last company to actually list alloys and hardness specs was Olin in the 1950's, when they were still producing 30-06 brass. They used Olin alloy C260, with a hardness spec of 80,000-ish psi tensile strength. They gained a reputation for having "stronger brass than the others". Where currently have I heard that...... Anyway what that meant was about the time you would see case stretch, or swipes you were approaching it's tensile strength, or the range of 80,000 psi. Not good when shooting a 60,000 psi case next to your face. With cases and primers that won't list spec's, "signs" are better than nothing, but absolutely no better than that. Starting at the start range, and chrono-ing up will let you know when you reach max pressure. Most book data is in SAAMI min spec test equipment, not a looser tolleranced mass produced rifle. The Creedmoor is only about a 2700 fps cartridge(with 140's) if you are going faster, you are over-pressure. So far in the Creed and a 308, it would appear that MOST brass in currently produced rifles; will "show signs" once you get to the 75,000 psi range. Always exceptions of course, but as a general rule of thumb it has been quite close.Quote:
Originally Posted by bearcatrp
No 4350 isn't more consistent, or at least not on face value. Like I said, the traces posted were randomly selected out of the series to show pressures/velocities. The 4350 trace happens to be on an accuracy node, where the Superformance traces are not on a node. If you were to do proper load work-up, you will find a few nodes. The funny thing about nodes: When you have a "stable" powder, be it extreme or otherwise, when the temps and loads are compensating, you will see some very interesting traces, regardless of the results on paper. As Rocky Raab used to say, a Pressure Trace will debunk many things that you thought you knew, unfortunately, it can leave more questions to answer.
Remington sure can be a bit hit-and-miss. The only thing I flat refuse to load is stupid Federal. They have VERY soft cases! Nice in that it seals the chamber very quickly, unfortunately the heads are also typically soft. I've blown apart several cases/extractors from that very thing. We had one blow apart at the 50,000 mark. Not exactly an over-load in the 308:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneWolf
Darkker, besides looking at the case after fireing and looking for case swipes and flattened primers, what do you recommend to add to help us young reloaders. I know I am a little close using 43.9 gr of varget and hornady 178 ELD bullets, but after you showing that pic, Am a little nervous now.