Bad Headspace Gage?

I feel like I'm losing my mind with my 6.5 Creedmoor project. My Apache barrel showed up yesterday (:cool:) and I got all set up to install it:

I took the extractor and ejector out of the bolt and slipped my PTG Go Gage in like I've always done before.
I closed the bolt and spun the barrel in until it hit the gage, tightened down the barrel nut, and then pulled the go gage out and slipped the PTG no-go gage in.
And the bolt closed completely with no resistance. :o

I took everything back apart and wiped the gages off and cleaned the chamber and bolt face and everything I could think of and set it up again. Same result.

So I started experimenting. I put the no-go gage in the chamber and screwed in the barrel until it hit, tightened down the barrel nut, then pulled out the no-go gage and slipped the go gage in. The bolt wouldn't even start to close on the go gage.

I pulled both of the gages and put the calipers on them. The no-go gage is slightly longer than the go gage, just as I would expect. I dropped both gages into the chamber to compare and it is visibly obvious that the no-go gage sits further into the chamber than the go-gage.

I have a spare ER Shaw barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor so I dropped the gages into it's chamber to make sure I wasn't crazy and I got the same result. The no-go gage goes further into the chamber than the go gage.

I have concluded that at least one of my gages is flawed. I've never had a gage problem before. I am curious if anyone else has had this problem before?

Look closely at the shoulder height and shoulder angle, to see if they are the same, put them side by side and compare.

Dean

And this is why I use Manson Reamers headspace gauges for everything now. PTG is a major PITA to deal with in my experience.

If the gauges are visibly sitting differently in the chamber (especially on two different barrels) then obviously there's something going on. I wouldn't go any further with that project until you can confirm what the problem is. Maybe try using the Go-Gage to set initial headspace, apply 2 pieces of scotch tape to the case head, and then see what the result is? You could also try re-sized cases just to see how they fit in the chamber.

Id try the tape thing as well, just as winnie said. Ive never used a no-go gauge on any of my builds. I always use a piece tape on the back of the go gauge. Id try that and then try to chamber a round just to check.
Scooter

The only problem with the tape method, in this case, is you have no idea which gage is wrong. If the bolt closes on the no-go and not on the go-gage, which is right/wrong???? How do you define "right"??? I would return both gages and go with Manson.

When I got home from work today I decided just for giggles to try the headspace gages in my Ruger American Predator 6.5 Creedmoor. The results:

The bolt closed completely on the no-go gage.
The bolt would not close on the go gage.

I chucked these gages in the scrap bin and put the project on hold until I can secure a proper set of gages. This is the first issue I've ever had with PTG stuff but it could have been a dangerous mistake. I'm a little bit in awe over it.

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Originally Posted by dividingfire

When I got home from work today I decided just for giggles to try the headspace gages in my Ruger American Predator 6.5 Creedmoor. The results:

The bolt closed completely on the no-go gage.
The bolt would not close on the go gage.

I chucked these gages in the scrap bin and put the project on hold until I can secure a proper set of gages. This is the first issue I've ever had with PTG stuff but it could have been a dangerous mistake. I'm a little bit in awe over it.

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Seriously, PTG has gone down the toilet recently. Everything from their products to their CS has been awful - at least in my experience. I have more than 5 sets of Manson headspace gauges and I've never had a problem with them, their CS is excellent, and for the same price... it's a no-brainer. Sorry to hear, but update with progress once you get it sorted out!

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Originally Posted by WinnieTheBoom

And this is why I use Manson Reamers headspace gauges for everything now. PTG is a major PITA to deal with in my experience. .

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I'm with ya. In the last 2 years PTG has slipped so far on the Quality chart it makes your head hurt!! I have a box of reamers that need to be sharpened and they are going to Manson.

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Originally Posted by dividingfire

The bolt closed completely on the no-go gage.
The bolt would not close on the go gage.

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Mebby those gauges were made early on Monday morning or near quitting time on a Friday afternoon. :p From what you're saying they seem to be have been marked in the reverse.

If I were you I'd pull them out of the trash bucket and make two measurements, the gauge heads to their shoulders, preferably something on the shoulder close to .400", a socket, case or ??? kinda like this...

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2iw63x4.jpg

Don't be concerned with their actual lengths. You only need to see if one is .004" shorter or longer than the other. The shortie is most likely the GO, the longie the No Go.

Try that and report back.
Bill

hate to say it but i agree with you guys about PT&G...my first reamer and gauges went great the second one not so much.

id do what Bill said before tossing them because it sounds to me like they are just marked wrong...i would also try setting the head space with the nogo since it seems to be the go gauge then chamber a piece of new brass and see how it feels then add 1 piece of tape to the shoulder and chamber it and see how it feels.

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Originally Posted by LongRange

i would also try setting the head space with the nogo since it seems to be the go gauge then chamber a piece of new brass and see how it feels then add 1 piece of tape to the shoulder and chamber it and see how it feels.

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I would try this also. It's tough to put a project on hold!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dividingfire

When I got home from work today I decided just for giggles to try the headspace gages in my Ruger American Predator 6.5 Creedmoor. The results:

The bolt closed completely on the no-go gage.
The bolt would not close on the go gage.

I chucked these gages in the scrap bin and put the project on hold until I can secure a proper set of gages. This is the first issue I've ever had with PTG stuff but it could have been a dangerous mistake. I'm a little bit in awe over it.

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I have had a couple factory rifles that accepted no go gages. They say the headspacing is okay until they accept a field gage. Your no go gage may be good. The only way to know is to check the length at the datum diameter, like BillPa said.

You can also measure the protrusion when you drop the gauge in the chamber. I believe it is .123 or .125 sticking out for go gauge. Not home so can't measure right now

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Originally Posted by earl39

You can also measure the protrusion when you drop the gauge in the chamber. I believe it is .123 or .125 sticking out for go gauge. Not home so can't measure right now

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But he said ...

Quote:

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I decided just for giggles to try the headspace gages in my Ruger American Predator 6.5 Creedmoor. The results:

The bolt closed completely on the no-go .
The bolt would not close on the go.

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Two chambers, same gauges, same results. I still think the gauge lengths are correct but are marked in the reverse, the Go marked as the No Go and the No Go as the Go.

Bill

EDIT:

In the name of science I dropped the gauges into the barrel to measure protrusion. I can't find my good calipers and the cheap ones I have only measure to 0.01 inches. They both measured at 0.13 inches so it doesn't tell me much. I'll get a better measurements once I find my good calipers.

Whats actually stamped on the gages and what do they actually measure??

Edited my previous post due to my calipers being crummy.

These are the gages:

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...319_221205.jpg

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...319_221235.jpg

No measurements etched? Measure them for us. Use a 45 acp case deprimed and squared up if thats all you have. I don't think I'm ever going to buy anything from those folks.

SAAMI lists a maximum chamber length of 1.551 from the breech face to the datum line (.400 on the shoulder) and a minimum of 1.541.
Set your calipers to .400 and score the gauges, then do a rough measurement of the gauges from the head to the scribed line.
Post up your findings here.

Forster also makes gauges for the creed....

Bummed by this thread. I will be double checking the gages I ordered from PTG when they finally arrive.

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Originally Posted by Iowa Fox

No measurements etched? Measure them for us. Use a 45 acp case deprimed and squared up if thats all you have. I don't think I'm ever going to buy anything from those folks.

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Must be the Forster gages that are etched. You can see it in the link.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/345...-223-remington

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Originally Posted by Hotolds442

SAAMI lists a maximum chamber length of 1.551 from the breech face to the datum line (.400 on the shoulder) and a minimum of 1.541.
Set your calipers to .400 and score the gauges, then do a rough measurement of the gauges from the head to the scribed line.
Post up your findings here.

Forster also makes gauges for the creed....

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The Forsters seem to be less expensive than the PTGs.

My Forester gauges are marked with the cartridge, Go, No Go and length. The PTGs and Clymers only marked with the cartridge and Go or No Go.

Bill.

I was able to find a set of Forster gauges. The big brown truck dropped them off today along with a new set of calipers. I will go down to the gun room this evening and get to work taking some measurements on the PTG gauges as well as comparing them to the Forster set. I will report back.

The Forster gauges worked out much better for me. I set the headspace on the Go gauge and then dropped in the No-Go gauge and the bolt would not close. Excellent.

After setting the headspace with the Forster gauges, I dropped the PTG Go gauge in and tried it. The bolt would not even start to close on it. I then dropped in the PTG No-Go gauge. The bolt would not close on it either.

The only thing I can say for sure is that the PTG Go gauge is set longer than the Forster Go gauge. I can also say that the PTG No-Go gauge is set longer than the Forster Go gauge.

I did take some measurements of the gauge protrusion before mounting the barrel. I can't speak to the accuracy of these measurements because the gauges did have some side-to-side play in the chamber. It is a difficult measurement to make accurately. The results are as follows:

PTG GO GAUGE: 0.1350"
Forster GO GAUGE: 0.1235"
PTG NO GO GAUGE: 0.1285"
Forster NO GO GAUGE: 0.1305"

These measurements are confirmed to be possible by the results from the gauge test, with the Forster GO gauge being the shortest and none of the others allowing the bolt to close.

I took some (poor quality) photos of the gauges next to each other for comparison purposes. Someone may be interested to see these.

The Go gauges next to each other. PTG on the right, Forster on the left:
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...ichtoneHDR.jpg

The NO GO gauges next to each other. PTG on the right, Forster on the left:
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...ichtoneHDR.jpg

All 4 gauges. From left to right: Forster GO, PTG GO, Forster NO-GO, PTG NO-GO:
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...ichtoneHDR.jpg

Thanks for posting your findings. Glad the Forster gauges worked out better for you... My weariness of PTG has been confirmed and I'll be staying away from them from here on out.

Now post up some pics of the finished product :thumb:

It's nothing fancy. I'll try to take some decent pics this weekends.

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...ichtoneHDR.jpg

That's a pretty sleek looking rifle, nice work.

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Originally Posted by dividingfire

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...ichtoneHDR.jpg

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Very nice! Is that the Harvestor 30? That what I plan on getting once I move to NC this summer.

Yes it is the Harvestor 30. I love it.

I've been meaning to post this up, thanks for the reminder.
So that its available via the search function, in most cases:
SAAMI minimum is the length used for a go gauge.
SAAMI minimum plus .004 is the length used for a no-go gauge.
SAAMI maximum is the length used for a field gauge.
There are always exceptions, of course, and all are measured from the datum line (which is sometimes hard to find without the proper tools) and the cartridge base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hotolds442

I've been meaning to post this up, thanks for the reminder.
So that its available via the search function, in most cases:
SAAMI minimum is the length used for a go gauge.
SAAMI minimum plus .004 is the length used for a no-go gauge.
SAAMI maximum is the length used for a field gauge.
There are always exceptions, of course, and all are measured from the datum line (which is sometimes hard to find without the proper tools) and the cartridge base.

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Would you recommend LE Wilson case gage and a dial indicator?

I am still waiting on the PTG gauges I ordered 7 weeks ago and am thinking I should check them out prior to trusting them.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hotolds442

I've been meaning to post this up, thanks for the reminder.
So that its available via the search function, in most cases:
SAAMI minimum is the length used for a go gauge.
SAAMI minimum plus .004 is the length used for a no-go gauge.
SAAMI maximum is the length used for a field gauge.
There are always exceptions, of course, and all are measured from the datum line (which is sometimes hard to find without the proper tools) and the cartridge base.

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That is a simple explanation and in most cases right, but technically incorrect.
The difference from SAAMI minimum to maximum length is .010". The difference from a go gauge to no-go gauge is .005", with a tolerance of +-.001". The range of the go/no-go gauges have to fall within that .010" window of the min/max headspace length. This is called a geometric tolerance. So technically a go gauge could be as little as minimum length, to min. + .006". A no-go gauge could be as little as minimum +.004" to maximum length. Yeah, sounds confusing, but SAAMI specs are very wide, and most manufacturers use them as a "suggestion" then use what is called "voluntary industry specs" to keeps things in a more realistic realm.
Most of the general public believes that every manufacturer uses SAAMI specs in every aspect of chambers and ammo, and that is simply not the case.

Oh, one more thing.....SAAMI doesn't call out specs for a "field' gauge. That is a military spec, being ,.015" longer than a go gauge.

That's a bummer! I've had a bad PTG reamer and a bad Manson reamer. I don't have a lot of experience with reamers, but my PTG had a burr on the shoulder, so only one flute was cutting the shoulder. I caught it before I finished the chamber and finally figured out what was going on. I stoned down the burr and finished the chamber.

On the Manson (had it less than a month), I reamed a new barrel, but in my inexperience, I didn't realize that the pilot was too tight and I pushed the first 1" of the rifling out maybe 0.0005". The barrel is probably still okay, but I ordered a new one anyways. I noticed that the etching on the pilot was worn on the first .2" but not on the rest of the pilot. The pilot was about an inch long before any cutting flutes were present. I drug out a B&S micrometer and the first .2" of the pilot measured 0.30000" (a .308 M852 match reamer). The rest of the pilot was 0.2998".

I ended up chucking the reamer in a drill and used a very fine stone to bring the oversized part of the pilot to match the rest of the reamer.

I haven't had a lot of luck with reamers. I do have a 10-piece PTG headspace gauge set for 308 and it seems to work very well. I've verified headspace in SAI rifles and they seem to be accurate. Headspace on a new rifle was about 0.002" over SAAMI minimum headspace.

Tony.

I wonder if those gauges aren't for a 6.5 Sweed?