Matchking as game-taker??

OK--I know this gets into "ethical controversy land" but let me say from the get-go that I neither use nor advocate the use of target rounds for taking big game--but am intrigued to ask nonetheless and am interested what the collective group-think is.

I happen to know a professional hand-loader (meaning he does this for a living for match shooters, LE etc.) and he tells me he hunts with matchkings. He's been hunting probably longer than I've been alive--which is saying alot since I'm well north of 50.

His reasoning sounds absurdly simple. #1, he says the matchking is the most consistently accurate bullet he knows of across the wide range of calibers and ranges being used for; and therefore is the easiest to work up to a good load. and 2) He says he's DRT'd over 100 deer with it. When I asked about the problem of fragmentation--he says that's why he likes it--basically by fragmenting after impact 100% of the kinetic energy is absorbed by the tissue resulting in massive tissue destruction. We were talkin 6.5 caliber on up--so penetration and smashing through bone he says are not a problem.

if i were going to be using standard cartriges for normal type hunting id be using standard hunting type bullets.
my father always used 180 gr. round nose bullets in his 3006. while i wont advocate using those theres certainly
nothing wrong with using good hunting bullets for most hunting situations.
for long range shooting however things like shape and bc become far more meaningfull.
virtualy all long range hunters use match grade bullets including sierra matchkings.
theres no argument as to their ability for killing animals. those who think otherwise simply havent used them.

Sad thing is the game king and pro hunter are almost as accurate with jackets that are designed for hunting.

If you asked the guys at Berger what makes their hunting bullet so darn good, they'd tell because it explodes inside the animals vitals, expending all of its energy. And that sounds like what your hand loading friend says of the Sierra's. Berger hunting bullets are the exact same thing as their match target bullets but with ever so slightly thicker walls.

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Originally Posted by rattfink

If you asked the guys at Berger what makes their hunting bullet so **** good, they'd tell because it explodes inside the animals vitals, expending all of its energy. And that sounds like what your hand loading friend says of the Sierra's. Berger hunting bullets are the exact same thing as their match target bullets but with ever so slightly thicker walls.

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Funny enough--the same guy says bergers are the one bullet he won't waste time on--he says there's too much "voodoo" in getting them to behave consistently and predictably across a reasonable range of weapons--but maybe that's just bias.

I like the Hornady A-Max for it's target grade accuracy and for hunting. I've blown the deer's heart up with Hornady 168 hpbt match bullet's up to 500 yards. But I also get practice all summer long with the woodchucks LOL.

well berger does state on the box which are and which arent (reccomended) for hunting.
how many of us have disected the bullets to know for sure they arent the same.
sierra does not say anything on their boxes. on some of the 500 round boxes they state
the bullet was designed for target shooting with custom rifles. but it dosent say not for hunting.

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Originally Posted by DanSavage

I like the Hornady A-Max for it's target grade accuracy and for hunting. I've blown the deer's heart up with Hornady 168 hpbt match bullet's up to 500 yards. But I also get practice all summer long with the woodchucks LOL.

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My bud said a-maxes were also a good choice and runner-up to the matchkings IHO. He's not a big fan of Nosler--but for some unknown reason I tend to shoot well with them in my hand-loads, so I continue to use them. Go figure.

Nosler Ballistic Tips have been some of the most accurate bullets I've ever shot. And they are serious deer hammers!

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Originally Posted by goinssr

Nosler Ballistic Tips have been some of the most accurate bullets I've ever shot. And they are serious deer hammers!

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I agree, Nosler Ballistic tips are very accurate and a better all around hunting bullet, they have proven very accurate. The 165 Ballistic tip shot from .5" down to .2" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. The most accurate bullet in one of my .308 barrels is the Ballistic Silver Tip 168's and Varget. I don't shoot Nolser's much anymore because of the price.

I've got a bunch of 178 A-max's I'll try this deer season.

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Originally Posted by DanSavage

I agree, Nosler Ballistic tips are very accurate and a better all around hunting bullet, they have proven very accurate. The 165 Ballistic tip shot from .5" down to .2" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. The most accurate bullet in one of my .308 barrels is the Ballistic Silver Tip 168's and Varget. I don't shoot Nolser's much anymore because of the price.

I've got a bunch of 178 A-max's I'll try this deer season.

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+1 for the Nosler Ballistic tip!

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Originally Posted by thermaler

Funny enough--the same guy says bergers are the one bullet he won't waste time on--he says there's too much "voodoo" in getting them to behave consistently and predictably across a reasonable range of weapons--but maybe that's just bias.

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Bergers can be finicky because of the VLD's are very depth sensitive. Most prefer to be at the lands or jammed. With the length of them it can be tough to fit them in a standard length magazine.

Great bullets, but have a couple factors to work around when finding a load.

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Originally Posted by yobuck

well berger does state on the box which are and which arent (reccomended) for hunting.
how many of us have disected the bullets to know for sure they arent the same.
sierra does not say anything on their boxes. on some of the 500 round boxes they state
the bullet was designed for target shooting with custom rifles. but it dosent say not for hunting.

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Yes, Berger targets have a thicker jacket that hinders it's ability to radically expand in game. The hunting versions have a thinner jacket.

Deer aren't bulletproof, and if you can put a SMK where it needs to go it will certainly do the job.

But failures are likely more possible, especially if it gets into a shoulder.

The Amax is a better "match/hunting" bullet IMO, but most folks that say "Don't use match bullets" have probably never hunted with them to see their terminal effects, either.

Also, +whatever on the NBT..."deer bombs" just work.

Being a long range hunter myself and having used all the bullets mentioned at one point or another I can honestly say the bergers provide the best accuracy and performance of any of them. The sierra game king is my second choice, a finer hunting bullet is hard to come by. The match kings work when put in the right place but throughout my bullet testing expansion was unreliable. Some would pencil through and others would expand violently much like a berger. The hornady Amax has also proven to be a solid performer at long range providing excellent ballistics and terminal performance. Noslers perform well on game as well but lack the b.c. I desire for long range work. I have found the b.c. on Nosler bullets to be highly exaggerated. Great bullets but not my pick for anything over 400 yards.

Burger also has there hybred line, they dont mind being jumped so loading to the lands is not needed.
Lots of guys on the Long Range Hunting Magazine on line forum use the Match Kings.
The Nosler Custom Competition is another choice, just have not heard anything about there use on game
as of yet.
So many great bullets out there for hunting, target, and those that cross the line between the two.
Good luck, and let us know what you pick and how it works out for you.

I have pretty much all these bullets at my disposal--I was just wondering how much credence there was to the internal fragmentation/massive destruction theory--sounds pretty solid to me from what I gather here. Funny how I haven't heard many people step up and say anything nice about Barnes copper bullets which are supposedly known for their very significant mushrooming and very high weight retention.

From my reading about the anatomy of killing, bullets like Barnes are not my choice. A hypodermic needle gives great penetration, a baseball delivers high energy, but I am convinced a large wound channel is the way to go. On that basis I like Bergers, and also no problem jumping a lot off the lands. Yes there are many opposing opinions on this topic!

Lots of opinions indeed. I too personally like a bullet that will dump all of its energy into the animal rather than the ground behind it. As far as seating sensitivity goes for the Berger out off all my rifles only one has preferred the bullet just touching the lands. The rest are set .025 from the lands and shoot beautifully. I've not yet messed with the hybrids just because I have not ever had any trouble with the regular vld design.

My hunting requirements have changed as I have aged. I have more than enough nice racks to my name and now meat is my goal. I don't want fragmentation. It messes up the meat. I also don't want to track them any more. I want them anchored on the spot or darned close to it so a good solid bullet is required.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

My hunting requirements have changed as I have aged. I have more than enough nice racks to my name and now meat is my goal. I don't want fragmentation. It messes up the meat. I also don't want to track them any more. I want them anchored on the spot or darned close to it so a good solid bullet is required.

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What's your preferred bullet?

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Originally Posted by thermaler

OK--I know this gets into "ethical controversy land" but let me say from the get-go that I neither use nor advocate the use of target rounds for taking big game--but am intrigued to ask nonetheless and am interested what the collective group-think is.

I happen to know a professional hand-loader (meaning he does this for a living for match shooters, LE etc.) and he tells me he hunts with matchkings. He's been hunting probably longer than I've been alive--which is saying alot since I'm well north of 50...

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How often does your friend take a shot from other than broadside and into the vital zone?

The issue being that it does not take much to get into the ribcage from the side. The stouter bullets help give more margin for deeper penetration for quartering shots and the occasional shoulder impact.


PS Neck and head shots don't take much bullet either, but neither of these are reliable game-taking shots since the critical zone is so small and the animal moves its head more than anything else except for the tail. Alas, too many folks take these shots and brag when they work and say nothing about misses.

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Originally Posted by JASmith

Alas, too many folks take these shots and brag when they work and say nothing about misses.

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truer words have never been spoken. but that also relates to all the world record groups shot with hunting rifles.
we tend to hear good news quickly. bad news seldom finds its way out of the woods.

With my experience with the bergers the meat damage has been less than one that passes completely through as there is generally only damage to one side and the internals only. I also differ from most hunters and aim for the shoulder bone rather than behind the shoulder. The bergers have no trouble penetrating and breaking bone and making complete goo out of everything behind it.

Most hunters I know--if you get enough beers in 'em--well fess up to at least one that was poorly hit or for other reasons they could never find. Not something they generally want to brag about. I've heard a fair amount of "that bullet (bigger calibers than 223) I swear went right through the vitals and out the other side but I never had a good trail and couldn't find the deer."

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Originally Posted by thermaler

I have pretty much all these bullets at my disposal--I was just wondering how much credence there was to the internal fragmentation/massive destruction theory--sounds pretty solid to me from what I gather here. Funny how I haven't heard many people step up and say anything nice about Barnes copper bullets which are supposedly known for their very significant mushrooming and very high weight retention.

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The key to reliably bringing an animal down in short order (<~10sec) is opening the large arteries near the heart or the heart itself. The thing doing the slice does not have to be a massive lance. One can look at hunting arrows used over the last 7,000 years and see that. In fact there was a paper published in a refereed archeology journal with those conclusions.

These primitive archers took the time needed to make good broadside shots. In the case of American Indians, they even waited until the buffalo had started to step forward so the ribs would separate enough to give the arrow a better chance to enter the thorax.

With rifles, one doesn't need much bullet to get through the rib cage and yes, the more fragments one gets inside the thorax, the better the chances of causing the animal to quickly faint by cutting enough blood vessels to cause massive loss of blood pressure, . When they work, these explosively fragmenting projectiles work very well. These bullets, however, don't always get into the vitals when the shots are taken at quartering angles and through large bones.

The lead-free expanding bullets do so well by expanding modestly in the first few inches and then keeping their weight and shape for the rest of the penetration even when going through bone. A key factor, and not one that is well-understood, is that the copper alloys used are far more ductile than lead and the strength can be controlled through modern metallurgy. This is why they tend to routinely make beautiful mushroom shapes.

You can read more about wound channels, bullet weights, construction, and killing power in this note: Ideal Bullet Weight. One of the conclusions to be drawn is that the lead-free expanding bullets seem to show about the same killing power as a bullet of classic design weighing half-again or more as much. That is one of the reasons they are becoming more popular.

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Originally Posted by goinssr

nosler ballistic tips have been some of the most accurate bullets i've ever shot. And they are serious deer hammers!

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amen!

Year before last, I got my buck with my 358Win, 225grn Sierra GK, @ 165yds, through & through, 1" exit hole. It knocked him off his feet and he never got up. No bloodshot meat-I ate right up to the hole. That is bullet performance with nothing left to be desired ;-)

I have followed this thread and hesitated posting as I have heard the same discussion many times in the past. If you always wait for the perfect shot and have the necessary skill and a decent rifle you can kill a deer with any caliber and any bullet. Unfortunately my experience has been that the perfect shot seldom presents itself. Hunting bullets are designed to give you a tool to deal with the not so perfect shot where penetration to the vitals requires weight retention and the mushroom develops to maximize the wound channel. Match bullets are not designed to do this. The people who design them even say this if one cares to read their literature. Taking a point from an earlier poster, no one boasts about their failures but any of us who have hunted any amount have found them in the woods or had to put them out of their misery., legs shot off, jaws blown away, eyes missing, guts hanging loose or haunches rotting while the animal is still living. Just as I wouldn't use a ball peen hammer to drive a nail I don't use match bullets for hunting. As far as accuracy is concerned, as long as a sure killing shot can be made who gives a darn whether you were "Paper" accurate. Taking bad shots at distance beyond your skill level with the wrong tools marks someone as a irresponsible and not fit to be in the company of men and hunters. Sorry for the pulpit but someone had to step up with the shovel.

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Originally Posted by MacDR

Taking bad shots at distance beyond your skill level with the wrong tools marks someone as a irresponsible and not fit to be in the company of men and hunters.

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Agree completely.

So what's worse, a hunter that shoots his rifle with match bullets hundreds of times and picks his shot on game with those bullets...or the fudd with the '06 and a box of Core-Lokts from Wal-Mart with a "if its brown, its down" attitude that thinks he's good if he puts one shot anywhere on a paper plate at 50yd?

People that want enough gun for a texas heart shot are MUCH more a concern to me than a hunter using a SMK that knows how to put the bullet where it needs to be, and has the discipline to pass on marginal shots (not unlike bowhunters).

well i have the feeling that the comments by macdr were directed more toward those he feels break his rules.
that being taking shots longer than he feels legitimate. if im wrong im sorry but thats my take.
those type comments usually come frome those totaly ignorant about the subject they condem.

You guys better be careful here........rule violations will get infractions issued.

It wasn't my intent to start an ethics debate--I was just wondering if there was anything to the theory of using highly fragmentable bullets such as match bullets as an effective game taker. I'm not an experienced hunter myself but am looking to gather as much info as I can before going out. The variety of opinions expressed here actually reflect closely the variety of opinions I get from other hunters I've talked with. It seems to me most people will swear by whatever it is that works for them at the type of terrain/hunt they most often do--which is likely not to be the same for everyone everywhere.

What I find interesting is that it seems that the more high -performing a bullet is--it seems to me the more likely a hunter might take a demanding shot. For example, based on the anecdotal accounts I've gathered a bigger better penetrating bullet might lead to more of an inclination to take quartering head-on or away or down-angle shots where the likelihood of needing to effectively penetrate bone before hitting the vitals goes up. I've often heard about spine, neck and head shots as well--but these sound to me like low-probability shots or the province of expert shooters. My other main conclusion is as long as it yields a quick and "humane" kill it doesn't really matter what you use as long as you have the skills to confidently put the bullet where it needs to go.

The devil in the details seems to be what happens if things don't quite go according to plan. It occurs to me that a highly fragmenting round that imparts a widely -dispersed internal tissue damage pattern MIGHT (that's pure conjecture on my part) "compensate" for an impact that is off for whatever reason.

These have been great comments and have really given me "food for thought." Thank you.

Unfortunately discussions about hunting ethics seems to have taken a back seat these days. While I believe the vast majority of hunters still adhere to the traditional principles of humane killing and responsible harvest levels we seem unwilling to stand-up for those principles. When I started hunting when I was twelve I was fortunate to do so in the company of men who held these principles in common and by actions and words passed them on to us youngsters. Fifty years later I find myself now to be one of those old men. Many new hunters read these forums. In many ways the forums replace that gathering around the table in the camp. Introducing and re-enforcing the principles of ethical hunting should be at the forefront when discussions start putting game in the same category as paper. "Wow I hit him at 1000 yards but he got away" isn't something to boast about. Perhaps ignorant and old go hand in hand ;-).

There's a picture on SnipersHide of a pronghorn George Gardner of GA Precision got earlier this week at 1268yd with a 6.5 SAUM and a 130gr Berger - one shot, one cleanly harvested animal.

Is that "unethical"?

What if I told you George created that caliber, built that rifle around that bullet, and has fired well north of 2500 rounds of that particular caliber in the last year including placing in multiple PRS competitions and winning the SnipersHide Cup?

Is he any more or less "ethical" than the 50yd pie plate shooter I mentioned above that goes through a 20rd box of ammo in their hunting rifle every half-decade, and shoots deer up the rump because they don't have the discipline to pass on a marginal shot?

Well said MacDR!!!

This whole discussion may have just been trumped by the passage and signing of AB711 which will ban the use of lead-containing bullets for hunting across the entire state. The courts may determine that all or part of the law does not meet constitutional standards, but it is clear that the prices of hunting ammunition will rise.

Bottom line for the thread title is that, yes the MatchKing has been used as a game taker with some degree of success and NO, it is not recommended by either the manufacturer or folks who know how bullets work on impact and penetration. Purpose-designed hunting bullets should be used on medium game and larger animals.

well im now in my 79th year of life on this planet. i also started hunting at age 12 in 1947 in north central pa.
our method of hunting was by organised drives. you could sometimes follow the deer down the hillside by the
sound of the shots by the hunters shooting at him as he ran. rifles were often chosen by the amount of lead
they could put out quickly.
if you had 10 men in a group rest assured at least 3 were poor shooters. none would be good shooters.
we were deer hunters not target shooters. ethics have always been an individual thing. they were no better
among hunters in 1950 than they are today.

I apologize if I suggested somehow that long range hunters were unethical. Those with the required skills and the right equipment are definitely ethical. The neophyte with the semi-auto who peppers the air with shots using surplus military ammo hoping one will connect with a running animal, well you decide.

Yes Yobuck, somethings don't change but I believe society has become much too tolerant of bad behavior or maybe it's just the more aches I develop the more cantankerous I have become. To the original poster, I agree that match kings can kill animals but disagree for practical and ethical reasons that they should be promoted for hunting big game.

I've only harvested around 10 whitetail deer so far at 36 years old now I only had one issue that almost led to losing the harvest. The young swamp buck was 45 yards away when I first spotted him standing in a swampy area and he was looking right at me. I was stalk hunting in the woods moving very slowly on and old concealed logging trail. He was front first quartered away a little and I slowly brought up the .243 shooting 80 grain federal factory hunting rounds, and I shot him right in the brisket right into the vital area. Then he and 3 more deer that I didn't even see all took off running to the left. I knew I had to have hit it, and I looked everywhere for signs of blood and couldn't find anything. I found him over 100 yards away, and I looked all around and still couldn't find any blood. The soft point bullet penciled through the vital cavity and gelitized the organs. The exit hole a ways behind the shoulder was small. I just can't believe that deer had enough adrenaline to run that far away.
My favorite shot is behind the shoulder through the upper part of the heart and exit out the shoulder, it's a rather low shot into the vital area but it drops them instantly. But most of the time I'm just shooting for the heart visualizing right where it is within the deer.

this being a topic about bullets and match type bullets in particular i feel weve sidetracked the issue enough.
i will however start a new topic on the subject of long range hunting if there is enough interest.
i will out line exactly how we go about in in pa and the equiptment used for doing it. i could post pictures also
with some coaching.

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Originally Posted by rattfink

Berger hunting bullets are the exact same thing as their match target bullets but with ever so slightly thicker walls.

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That is just backwards Rat. Berger redid the match bullets with a slightly thicker jacket due to complaints that some bullets were being lost in flight due to them coming apart. After much testing Berger found that some bullets would come apart in flight if pushed to the extreme and started making the match bullets with a heavier jacket. The bullets now marked as hunting are the same as the original match bullets which were not designed as hunting bullets but just seemed to work very well. As stated about the Matchkings, Berger also started out saying not to hunt with their TARGET bullet. It was the reports of many shooters having such good luck with them that led Berger to reexamine their bullets for hunting.
I have used Matchkings for deer hunting but after a number of deer have stopped due to the lack of expansion. The bullet does a lot of damage but for the most part it is due to a tumble such as fmj's do in soft tissue. Lapua Scenar bullets have exhibited the same non-expansion with a tumble effect for me also. If i was going to use a target bullet to deer hunt with it would be the original Berger which is now called a hunting bullet. The A-Max is a good cross between target and hunting. Not the absolute best at either but good at both. JMHO

Why not just use a bullet designed for hunting like the gameking. Very accurate and deadly and cheaper. Problem solved

I contacted Sierra personally about using the 168 matchkings for whitetail. They stated they would definitely not use them for hunting, As the jacket is designed for target only and probably would not allow for any expansion on game.

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Originally Posted by sniper15545

I contacted Sierra personally about using the 168 matchkings for whitetail. They stated they would definitely not use them for hunting, As the jacket is designed for target only and probably would not allow for any expansion on game.

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Thanks for that. That is the official word and I will personally abide by that. But just to leave on a note of ambiguity--I notice your avatar is sniper--this might interest you: http://www.shootingtimes.com/2012/03...-mod-1-review/