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Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
I was doing some reading over on AccurateShooter.com and from what I can tell Savage doesn't have much of a following amoung target shooters, whether it be 100 & 200 yard benchrest or 1000 yard long range....in fact under their section of "recommended actions by use" savage is only listed once, and that is under varminting.
So I thought this would be a good place to ask, just what is it about savage actions that fall short of being competition grade? Could a T&T target action from SSS come close to being competitive or does it fall a mile short?
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
That information is out of date and undoubtedly biased.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
From what I have heard Savage rifles and actions are among the best out there. And as far as an out of the box shooter they are at the top from what I have heard.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenwalker
From what I have heard Savage rifles and actions are among the best out there. And as far as an out of the box shooter they are at the top from what I have heard.
Hey man, no offense but I think he is talking about a higher standard of accuracy then "out of the box".
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
^^^^ Yes, indeed I am...perhaps not world class competition, but I certainly had regional events in mind where most shooters will be sporting at least some level of custom rifle.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
I have been doing pretty well at 1000yd F class w/ a mod. 10 action, T&T'd, Rifle Basix 2 trigger, Shilen barrel, sss lug, etc. However, I am doing what I consider to be my ultimate "big boy" target build: A brand new Target Action, T&T'd, EVO trigger, SSS bolt handle, PTG Oversized Fluted bolt, etc. W/ a No nut 6brx gain twist(8.7-8.3") barrel. All put together by record setting builder Mike Davis here in NC. He built Sam Hall's rifles, etc.
We are using his reamer that gives .112 or so freebore/ throating,etc. so it should be as good as it can get w/ a Savage Action. Using a SSS recoil lug, SSS LRBR stock w/ adj comb, Ken Ferrel Base, Burris Zee Rings w/ inserts and a Nightforce 12-42x NP2DD scope. W/ proper load dev. it should be all a Savage can be.
In hind site, w/ all the stuff I have done to this action, I could have done a Barnard, Stiller, etc. custom action for about the same money. I would have still had more in the stock and stock work w/ the custom action. But if I ever go to sell it, the custom would hold more value though.
It won't be done for quite a while though, but I will give a full report when it is done. I will be competing w/ my 260AI most of this year though.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
If you take a closer look, Savage is the only mass production action maker w an action featured in their 'custom action' page. No other mass manufacturer offers anything of the sort. The actions it is compared to cost about twice as much.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Well I will try to answer your question the best I can. To answer your question YES a Savage is more than able to compete with high dollar actions and be competitive in both short range, and long range benchrest shooting. To start out there is a difference in long range and short range benchrest and the equipment that is used. Most people that compete with a Savage compete in long range. This is a growing newer sport, that the shooters are more open minded, and willing to try new things.
The problem with short range IBS/NBRSA benchrest shooting is this is truly a monkey see monkey do discipline. If Tony Boyer does it everyone else has to. Tony Boyer shoots what is given to him. A factory Savage would be hard to compete with, but one that has been tuned by a quality gunsmith is able to do well. Until someone wins with a Savage, the naysayers will say that it can not be done, The problem is No top notch shooter would be willing to put beside there custom action to prove a point.
The main downside to this type of shooting (IBS/NBRSA short range) is the lack of quality aftermarket parts. Up until the last couple of years there was no 2 oz trigger available for a Savage, this was the main killer. Thanks to SSS there is parts to make the guns competitive, but unfortunately there is no other aftermarket parts makers doing the same things. Remington has had top notch parts for many years, and this is why they dominate the sport. Every custom action (Bat,Panda,Nesieka,Hall,Stiller,ETC) is a Remington 700 clone, and Dave Kiff makes all the bolts. The first benchrest guns were Remington's. For a Remington 2oz trigger you have Shilen, Jewel, Kelby, and many other makes. The other problem is lack of good stocks, but it can be done using an un-inletted Remington stock, and having it inletted by a gunsmith for a Savage.
The other reason you don't see a lot of Savages, is there is still the thinking that they are cheap junk among the gun communities. It wasn't until Savage released the accu-trigger that majority of people took a second look at Savage, and decided that the guns was a good design. For many years people never shot Savages but classified them as junk do to there low cost. Ever since the accu-trigger Savage's sales have sored, and the price has increased considerably, and people have now come to except the savage, even though very little has changed in the gun since its debut in 1958.
To finish your question SSS has built a few IBS/NBRSA competitive rifles, that in final form will rival against higher end custom actions. The tuned Savage will shoot just as good, and the actions feel just as smooth. For comparison, most people I shoot with shot Bats, I own a Bat. In comparison my SSS worked Savage is just as smooth, and has an easier bolt lift than my two lug Bat. I have a friend that owns two Bats, and a SSS built Savage all outfitted exactly the same, (Krieger barrel, TMBR stock, Leupold, comp 45 scope) and his Savage shoots just as good as his two Bats.
I end my thoughts with this. I have added a Target I shot a couple of weeks ago, with a SSS built 6 PPC Savage. The target measures at .307 with the flier. (.114 without the flyer.) This is a 5 shoot 100 yard group, just messing around, no wind flags used, and the target was shot in a hurry. The gun shoots much, much, better than this. I think this speaks for its self.
[img width=497 height=450]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/scan-1.jpg[/img]
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Patrick,
That's some pretty fine shooting. I think people make too much of the "accuracy" of an action. That's just balderdash! After all, an action is just the 'holder' for the barrel and trigger.
My friend Kent Reeve was the 2006 Long Range Champion at the National Matches at Camp Perry and he used a basically stock Mauser 98 single shot action chambered in .300 Win Mag. Here is a decription in his own words....
"Interarms single shot Mauser, cost $165 for the action back in 1992-1993 timeframe. Factory trigger. I think it was trued and squared (a benchrest gunsmith did original barrel) but can't remember for sure.
Current barrel is only the second barrel that has ever been on it. I mostly shoot a Palma rifle at LR matches so it doesn't get much use.
The barrel and bedding are more important factors on a LR rifle than the brand of action IMHO."
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
IMO, the worst thing going for the Savage, and probably the reason it isn't used more than it is, is the trigger system. It plain stinks beside anything else out there. Yes, it works, and in a lot of cases it works well. The trouble is that it is built from stamped parts w allowances for bad tolerance stack. It's great for mass production. When someone wants to get serious, it's a pain. The cocking button probably has a much broader range of location in the cocked position than say a Rem or Howa, etc. That makes it necessary to have a full T&T to get a good trigger (which is exactly what SSS has to do). Whereas, on other mainstream production actions the trigger assembly is much more modular and the cocking pins'/firing pins' positions are much more nailed down. That allows aftermarket folks to make equally modular, 'drop in' assemblies that plain rock out of the box. By the time you machined a Savage to accept some type of really modular trigger/sear combo for another rifle, you might as well just modify a Remmy to accept a floating bolt head because it would be cheaper/easier.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk
Patrick,
That's some pretty fine shooting. I think people make too much of the "accuracy" of an action. That's just balderdash! After all, an action is just the 'holder' for the barrel and trigger.
Dirk, Thank you for the compliment. (Your making my head swell.) When you have a gun put together right, I think anyone can shoot well, that gun is literally just point and shoot.
On the action, I could not say it any better. Past holding the trigger and the sight, it don't matter, the barrel and the scope are the two most important pieces. Then you have the people that worry about rigidity, and again the action don't make the rifle, it is the barrel. I would also say that the stock plays an important role, it makes shooting groups easier, but a bad stock will still shoot good, it just takes more concentration.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
if you are going to compete you will spend between 2 and 5k on your rig probably custom to boot.
sorry this is just the way it is. go look at the rimfire boys no one is shooting stock anymore!!!
sort of too bad
bob
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
I have no idea or knowledge about competition shooting but I have to throw my 2 cents in. My opinion is competitors think the most dollars they can spend the better the tools of the trade are.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwop
if you are going to compete you will spend between 2 and 5k on your rig probably custom to boot.
sorry this is just the way it is. go look at the rimfire boys no one is shooting stock anymore!!!
sort of too bad
bob
You didn't specify what type of competition. Don't just lump them all together. For f-class, for example, you can compete at an international level with an out of the box Savage F-class rifle for under 2K with the scope! Ask Monte Milinek.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwop
if you are going to compete you will spend between 2 and 5k on your rig probably custom to boot.
sorry this is just the way it is. go look at the rimfire boys no one is shooting stock anymore!!!
sort of too bad
bob
Bob is right, and points out another good point. Benchrest is an expensive game, once you bought a rest, scope, and rig your going to have some serious money into it.
My problem is this Savage is pricing them selves out of the market. For example, why can they sell a complete Stevens 200 for around $300 dollars but a target action that starts out as the same receiver and requires less machining cost $450 to $550 dollars? (Going by dealer selling price on gun broker, and NSS) Savage inflates the price of a gun with an accu-trigger by around $100 bucks, and if you look at an accu-trigger it should not cost them anymore money to make.
Lets say you wanted to build a low price benchrest gun, and you wanted something with a right bolt, and a left eject, It cost the same to build a Savage as it does to buy a custom action. I will show you what I mean, On barrel, stock and scope cost they would be the same because of the same components.
To start lets say you bought a dual port action from Jim Briggs (A person who his profit margin is so low I don't know how he makes a single cent.) at $475. ( I will not add shipping or FFl fees because that would also be included into any action.) Now this action will need timed and trued, and a better trigger, so you send it off to SSS for an evolution trigger and a T&t job at a bargain price of $300 with shipping back to you. Now you have $775 into the action. The action come with the BT bolt handle which is too heavy for a serious trigger, so you pop for an SSS at $40 bucks now you have $815. You will need small parts of a trigger guard at $22 bucks, a set of rings (let go with Talley's, they are about the only ring that is light enough to keep it in weight, and they are cheaper than others.) for $47 dollars, now you have $884 into your action. Now you have additional parts such as a recoil lug at $28 bringing the total up to $912, and you don't have a barrel nut, or action screws.
You can buy a Stiller viper for $900 and it includes everything you need, except the trigger and a Shilen is around $100 bucks, a jewel is around $170. Now lets say you want to tighten up the bolt in your Savage so that it feels like a custom you need to give Pacific tool and gauge around $125 bucks for a bolt body, and lets say you want it fluted like the custom action you will have even more money into it.
What it all comes down to is you can build a Savage for around $2000 dollars that would be competitive, but you can also build a Stiller, or buy a used Bat, or Panda for around the same money. This is why most people don't attempt to go the Savage route, the other way is proven. If Savage would lower the price of the target action it would make this option more feasible. Savage could also offer a competitive gun at a lower price that would fill this bill, but they will not because there bread and butter is hunting rifles. The prices could be better controled if the starting action was a Stevens, but you would not have a left feed right eject.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk
For f-class, for example, you can compete at an international level with an out of the box Savage F-class rifle for under 2K with the scope! Ask Monte Milinek.
Dirk is right in another point, it depends on what type of competition you are referring to. Yes savage has done very well in F class, with a box stock rifle.
I would argue that building a long range IBS gun (600 and 1000 yard) is cheaper than building a IBS/NBRSA short range (100,200 and 300 yards) gun. (Mostly due to weight differences, short range light gun weighs at 10.5 a long range light gun weighs in at 17 lbs.) I would say that it a person should be able to build a long range gun for 2k including scope.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
I think it's just that.The action leaves allot to be desired.Shooting sub 1/2 MOA groups isn't the only reason to own a particular gun.If you pull the trigger and it don't go bang,it matters little whether its a Holland and Holland or a JC Higgins from Sears.I have a new Savage LRPV .204 Savage.I scoped it,bore sighted it with the windage screws on the rear Burris base and shot it at 50 yards,with FED factory 39gr Sie.It shot 15" low.The elevation was checked to confirm it was centered,so I cranked it up to check the tracking,and it was fine.I installed the +/-10 inserts, front and rear and gained 10" in elevation,and finished with the scope adjustment.It shot a nice group and later shot a .333 with the Fed ammo at 100 yards.My reloads shot .178 after the cases were used a couple times.This was ,out of the box,no tuning,and trigger was 15oz.It only ejected 30% of the cases.The bigest problem was extreme cratering of the primers.No pressure,just a pin too small for the bolt opening.After corresponding with customr service and sending pictures of the factory primers (Hornady cases),they ordered UPS to pick up the gun the next day.I sent the paperwork with the two problems.They had their Palama shop install a new bolt head and check the head space.I had left the scope bases on,so only had to turn the scope on and check the windage.Shot at 75 yards 10 rounds to check primer strikes,and ejection.Primers were 95% better than before but it didn't eject (all parts new in the bolt head.There is less slop in the head recess and the ejector felt stronger.It ejected with authority,but only 3 out of the ten rounds.So I call Lisa at SSS and have her send a 1/2 doz .140 detent balls.That didn't take care of it.I called Effie at savage(very nice gal)and asked for ,and she would send me two extractors.I was disapointed that I didn't get them in the mail today,and I was getting ready to call Savage when the UPS truck pulls up and the guy has a fairly big box 12x8x3".I couldn't imagine it being from Savage,but it was.Well they sent two of each parts for the extractor and ejector,plus a nice embrosed leather rifle carry sling and two embroirdered Savage patches.I painted my stock after the gun returned and noticed that the action screws were barely finger tight when I removed the stock.They must have adjusted the trigger down to 9oz as I sent it set at 15oz.What would you think about a gun that you set up with quality mounts,shooting that low at 50 yards?I still need to solve the ejection problem,as it drops the case as soon as it clears the camber,regardless whether or not the bolt is moved slow or fast.To quote a local rifle builder,"you can make a zip gun shoot small groups"....OR Savage should lower the price to fit the quality.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
I agree on the price definitely.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
I believe a lot has to do with the "I drive a Mercedes" thought process. Chances are half the people that shoot custom actions can't out shoot a factory Savage in capable hands. But they "want" the best/most expensive, the most obnoxious paint schemes, blah, blah blah. Truth is, Savage has rather sloppy machining on my new 12F. The action has huge mill marks, and the OD of the action looks a lot like a golf ball. That being said, it still will shoot outstanding. Just not as pretty doing it. ;)
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe O
>>>>>>>>>>>>>What would you think about a gun that you set up with quality mounts,shooting that low at 50 yards?I still need to solve the ejection problem,as it drops the case as soon as it clears the camber,regardless whether or not the bolt is moved slow or fast.To quote a local rifle builder,"you can make a zip gun shoot small groups"....OR Savage should lower the price to fit the quality.
Pull the ejector spring and lengthen it, just a touch, by pulling on the spring.
Also, make sure the ejector travels in the bore of the bolt head freely, without the spring installed.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
DCLOCO,I'll put that on my ,"things to try list"Savage sent me two of everything,and I have a few more of the larger detent balls from SSS.Three different brass manufactures.I sure hope somethings works.Thanks.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 82boy
the shooters are more open minded
Open minded shooters ?
You jest. ;) ;)
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Here is something that is hard to put a price on- I love kicking butt and winning with my Savage! The first time they right it off as luck. Several times and they just get that look on their faces!
No doubt I will own a custom some day, but I am scrappy enough to enjoy this until then!
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
82boy convincinly showed you can make a competitive rifle cheaper with a custom action than with a savage....
yep, I know he is right. But I'm putting together (myself?) a 6PPC savage and you can't beat it for the experience. Learned how to headspace, already had learned how to bed (Devcon); made 220 Russian into 6PPC; tried two different methods (pistol powder versus expander/6mm bullet) -- learned more and more.
I'm having both horizontal and vertical errors, think it is my bag/technique/stock -- new stock almost here....
The charge/elevation data I got off the new Shilen barrel showed about a THIRD the sensitivity to charge that my 12FV varmint barrel had -- short thick barrel indeed better than long long somewhat thick barrel, and proof on my targets pasted in the notebook.
I think the main advantage of the Savage is the ability to LEARN about what goes into an accurate rifle. I can have each part of the equation done and watch the effects. Sure, I may end up getting something completely different, but I'm plotting a course that friends can follow far more cheaply than I have, and get a "club -level" accurate rifle for fairly cheap.
Loads of fun. Much more than buying perfection at a price.
gordon
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Hey Gordon, I did the same thing that you did, I built a custom rifle, and what I learned from doing so, is far well worth the cost of the rifle, and more so.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
So just what is it that makes those light weight benchrest guns so accurate..is it strictly caliber (6PPC) that gives them the advantage over long distance rigs when it comes to point blank (100, 200, 300 yard accuracy?)
I read about 10.5lb benchrest rifles firing 0.1XX, or 0.0XX groups in order to be competitive, yet 600 or 1000 yard guns possibly weighing 17lbs often fire closer to 1/2 MOA at close range....is that because of the twist rate, bullets, and caliber?
Would one of these long distance rigs with a slightly slower twist and some flat base bullets rival the benchrest guns at close range or is there some magic in the build of these benchrest guns?
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
The difference is mainly in the bullets. Short range guns shoot flat back bullets, that stabilize quickly. The long range guns mostly shoot boat tailed bullets that don't fully stabilize until they are out 100 to 200 yards. My long range gun (Savage 110 Shilen 1 in 8 twist barrel chambered in 6x47 lapua shooting 108 Berger boat tails) shoots just about as good as my short range gun. (in the .3's)
Something else very few short range bench rest guns shoot .1 or.0 groups, (In the .0 area it is called a screamer and you get a patch for it.) there is some freak groups that are shoot from time to time, but this is not the norm. Go to Kelby's super shoot and look at the wailing wall most groups are in the .5 area. Only a small percent are smaller, I would say a competitive gun shoots groups in the .2 area. Being consistent is the key to winning. As the saying goes "You don't have to shoot small groups to win, just don't shoot no big ones." Don't get me wrong Tony boyer usually shoots some .1 area groups, and may other have as well, but every time they go to the line there is a good possibility they will shoot a larger group.
Other difference between a short range (SR) and a long range (LR) gun besides weight. A SR gun they use a slow twist barrel so that the rifle doesn't torque in the rest, and stays on target. They use the slowest twist they can to just barley stabilize the bullet. In a 6PPC they shoot mostly 14 twist. In my area you will not see many 15 twist do to the cold weather, and the bullets will not stabilize in the cold, but they will in the hot weather. SR guns have short barrels because of the weight. (It is hard to make weight) You will mostly see fixed power scopes, fiberglass stocks, and guns chambered in a 220 Russian variant. (6ppc, waldog, ((even modified 6br)) Tall dog, small dog, and 30br.) All because this is what works. The main thing is for the gun to move as little as possible, and when it does move for it to go back to the aim spot quickly. Light 2oz (or less) triggers are used so that they do not disturb the gun. Depending on the conditions may state the way you shoot. On a calm day many will take their time shooting. On a day with fast switching winds many will shoot off there rounds quickly, trying to keep the same condition. In SR competition there is tons of flags used, depending on the size of competition and the range there could be a few hundred flags out. Funny thing is many people shoot light gun in heavy gun (under 13 lbs) class because a heavy gun shoots different. Look at the records the light guns usually have better and/or smaller groups.
In a LR gun, they need fast twist barrels to use heavier bullets to go the distance. The use longer barrels, to gain velocity and to help make weight. 17 lbs is a heavy gun. You will see a lot of laminate stocks used, variable power scopes. To get the weight up many people fill the stocks with lead. A heavier trigger (4 to 12 oz) can work because the gun is heavier, and harder to disturb. In LR good shooters shoot fast, and there are very few flags out. Shooters use trees, grass and other things to judge conditions. The guns are heavy so a heavy recoiling round doesn't move the gun as much, and it help the shooter by not beating them to death with recoil.
There is no magic in building a SR or LR gun, the same principles are there. Many LR shooters use the exact same custom actions that the SR guy use. (Bat, Panda, ETC) some use the bigger versions to accommodate the longer cases and bigger caliber.
I hope this answers all your questions.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
I think if you shoot F-class, Savage comes out better cost-wise, even if you don't buy their F-class gun. Target action for $475, time & true for $125 (I hear that SSS will sell you a T&T target action for less than $475+$125=$600, but don't know for sure how much less), Farrell 20MOA base $70, Seekins or other similar rings ~$110 from Liberty Optics, SSS recoil lug $28 (though I'm not sure how necessary that is for target actions, which seem to have machined recoil lugs from the factory). According to the Savage website, the trigger guard is included. That's $808 not including shipping or FFL. Add $300-$400 for a high end barrel, and $800-$900 for a Sightron SIII from Liberty Optics, and you have a gun that can run with anything made for $2,000 or so total.
Well, that's what I'm telling myself as I price out such a gun ;D
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Something else to add on bullets Short range benchrest shooters use exotic handmade bullets by makers such as Bart's, Uber, Fowler, Starke, Council, Zia, BIB, ETC. Long range shooters don't have as many options of bullet selection in hand made bullets. (The only one I can think of is JLK, and BIB.) So they shoot mass produced bullets from Berger, and Sierra.
I would also add this, both disciplines the guys seriously get into tuning the ammo. A Short range shooter is going to tun the ammo to do well at the given range, say 100 yards. A long range shooter is not concerned with how the gun shoots at 100 yards and they will tune their load for the best results at a longer range, say 600 yards. This may be what your seeing onto of the bullet design. There is also different techniques used in the different disciplines, for example long range shooters may trim meplat's where a short range shooter will not. Why because in theory the meplat doesn't make a difference with the wind at say 100 yards but it does at say 600 yards, and there is BC lost with meplat trimming, and this may make more of a difference to one than the other.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Thanks guys, very informative answers and better yet information that makes sence and has reasoning to it......as a side note, have you guys ever noticed how much more you need to learn about something when you're on a budget. A lot of guys with enough cash seem to walk into a smiths shop, lay down X thousand dollars and ask for the best rifles the smith can build for each event, while the rest of us can (or at least try) to do just about as well by learning how and why things work and finding cheaper solutions (its just a lot more work!)
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
well let me tell you a story. a friend of mine was an avid duck hunter he used an old lc smith he always limited out. his friend went with him used a remington or something couldnt hit the side of a barn. so he goes and buys himself a browning superposed guess what he still couldnt hit a duck. so no matter what the gun you still have to be able to shoot.
if you are a top shooter in b/r or anything else and want to stay there you will go the extra step and expense to have a top gun. when a shooter goes to the extreme of loading at the shoot in order to win then money wont be much of an object. no matter what the sport it always comes down to money money money.
the money invested will make a great shooter an even greater shooter.
good luck
bob
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
A number of the men who shoot at my clubs winter IBS HV league are using Jim Bordens rifles. Jim's relatively local and often comes to the matches. You can own one of his superb rifles for a paltry $3000.00+/- base price, less optics.
Of course this causes a problem for us lowly working class shooters. You see I've noticed a trend at these matches. Older retired gentlemen with plenty of disposable income and plenty of time on their hands. Me, I'm farther in debt than I am in profit so I find myself at work wasting perfectly good shooting time. Although I'm by no means hurting like some in this country it's still difficult to justfy expending so much in a "match grade" rifle even if it was a $2000 dollar Savage. I'm just "priced out" of the league to the point I don't much feel like trying and I certainly don't feel like giving someone with that much cash more of mine every week. Now if they offered a "handicap" based on your rig.... ;)
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdchuckhuntr
A number of the men who shoot at my clubs winter IBS HV league are using Jim Bordens rifles. Jim's relatively local and often comes to the matches. You can own one of his superb rifles for a paltry $3000.00+/- base price, less optics.
Of course this causes a problem for us lowly working class shooters. You see I've noticed a trend at these matches. Older retired gentlemen with plenty of disposable income and plenty of time on their hands. Me, I'm farther in debt than I am in profit so I find myself at work wasting perfectly good shooting time. Although I'm by no means hurting like some in this country it's still difficult to justify expending so much in a "match grade" rifle even if it was a $2000 dollar Savage. I'm just "priced out" of the league to the point I don't much feel like trying and I certainly don't feel like giving someone with that much cash more of mine every week. Now if they offered a "handicap" based on your rig.... ;)
Do you want a little cheese to go with that whine? It sounds like you just don't have that "competitors" attitude. Guys like you will always say to yourself "If I just had that kind of rifle" or "If I just had that brand of scope". In your mind, you will always need a crutch.
If you really were confident in your abilities, you would go and compete and at the end of the day you could say "I did my best" and be satisfied in your effort. It doesn't really matter where you place on the score board, just that you did your best that day and you try and do better the next time. But I guess if you need a crutch (excuse) you will never know what it is like, because you will always doubt your equipment.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Yeah, no sugar coating. Tough love! ;)
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
But it usually always works! ;)
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Do you want a little cheese to go with that whine? It sounds like you just don't have that "competitors" attitude. Guys like you will always say to yourself "If I just had that kind of rifle" or "If I just had that brand of scope". In your mind, you will always need a crutch.
If you really were confident in your abilities, you would go and compete and at the end of the day you could say "I did my best" and be satisfied in your effort. It doesn't really matter where you place on the score board, just that you did your best that day and you try and do better the next time. But I guess if you need a crutch (excuse) you will never know what it is like, because you will always doubt your equipment.
You know you're post pissed me off in so many ways it isn't even funny. Mostly the fact that you would make such a biased assumption about me based on the little information provided. I spend countless hours, even in these cold temps, at the range working on load development and shooting improvement. Once or twice a week I stop at the range on my way home to get off some rounds before dark in the 20 deg. temps. Come saturday and/or sunday I'm back at the range. Nearly every penny I have goes into shooting and hunting and the continued enjoyment of both. I've done all the work on my Savages myself and I'm damn proud of it every time I pull the trigger. It's the very reason I own them.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Oh there was PLENTY of info from you on why you don't enter competition in your post. If you are truly passionate about shooting, go to a match and compete! I think you are probably ready, but just need a little push.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
I am in the process of developing my 6.5x55 for F-class under some direction from one of the IBS HV shooters who also shoots 600-1000yds. As for IBS HV group, I don't have a rifle capable of reliable sub .250 groups and feel the competition entry fees can be better spent on reloading components.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Didn't realize that you couldn't be serious about shooting without competing...
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdchuckhuntr
I am in the process of developing my 6.5x55 for F-class under some direction from one of the IBS HV shooters who also shoots 600-1000yds. As for IBS HV group, I don't have a rifle capable of reliable sub .250 groups and feel the competition entry fees can be better spent on reloading components.
For a competitive F-class rifle, all you need is 1/2 MOA rifle. All F-class targets have an X ring that is 1/2 MOA. That's 3 inches at 600 yards. Go enter an F-class match with what you have and enjoy the experience.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by 82boy
Hey Gordon, I did the same thing that you did, I built a custom rifle, and what I learned from doing so, is far well worth the cost of the rifle, and more so.
\
82boy: incredibly helpful overview information you have given! Very helpful.
As to what makes it more accurate:
1. My experience: so far it isn't JUST the 6ppc. My new Shilen 6PPC barrel is not yet exceeding the groups of my .223 Savage -- even when I moved the Savage barrel to an ancient Sav110 that was RUSTY when I bought it. There is more to it than JUST the 6PPC.
2. The Shilen barrel is SHORT and STUBBY, on purpose, to reduce the "twang" of the long varmint rifle. Testing shows so far that a 2 grain change in H322 results in ONLY a 0.75" rise in point of impact at 100yards -- with the long .223 Savage varmint barrel, it was about THREE TIMES as much. So the short, FAT barrel is making a positive improvement. A combination of several groups plus a few shots with minimal horizontal error and very consistent vertical trend convinced me of this data.
3. My new stock has not yet arrived. Results above are from a tupperware stock bedded with Devcon, using the old (factory) recoil lug. Groups still not much better than 0.500 at 100 yards, 5 shots.
4. Next items on list: I Read the FAQ on bag technique on benchrest.com. I am doing it badly. Also: could be my scope. Will swap scopes in an experiment soon (maybe tomorrow). Also: could be the action; could be my load, probably IS related to the tupperware stock: although not making "two groups", the wide horizontal and nearly equivalent vertical dispersion suggests random error from one or more sources, likely the stock. I'm working on each item a bit at a time....I make lists of what I think I did wrong and want to do better. Once I forgot to perfectly remove parallax...wasted rounds... Current bag setup does NOT ride forward/backward well. Try powder (Suave) deoderant. With the thin forestock, my rifle cants too easily in front rest; get better results with bipod actually.
Loading: Unable to find "best charge" because my errors from other problems vastly exceed the powder errors. my variation in verticle due to 0.1 grain of powder is less than half a tenth ofan inch....but my horizontal is 0.5". So....(wilson) seat to the lands, load reasonably, and work on technique. Later, should beable to improve.
The reduction in torque from going from a 1:9" barrel to a 1:13" barrel is significant. That is helping me out somewhat. Still learning! Much fun. Did some "club" competitions last summer when off work, learned a lot.
gordon
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by helotaxi
Didn't realize that you couldn't be serious about shooting without competing...
If you are quoting me, get it right. I said "If you are truly passionate about shooting, go to a match and compete!"
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
So, if I'm passionate about "heing and sheing" I guess I need to be a porn star right?
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Well, if you've got the equipment..... ;D
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
KIRK This site tries to educate and share information in a FRIENDLY way. There are many other sites where you can brag about your superior knowledge and ability to insult others. You have no idea how many of us you are offending with your superior attitude.
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
That really added to the conversation. What have YOU got to add?
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Water Bill
KIRK This site tries to educate and share information in a FRIENDLY way. There are many other sites where you can brag about your superior knowledge and ability to insult others. You have no idea how many of us you are offending with your superior attitude.
+100,000,000. Go away Dirk
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
It seems we lose some civility and courtesy when sitting behind the keyboard. Negative posts and name calling have no value to this thread and stand to gain nothing. We owe it to 300magman not to hijack his thread and I apologize to him for my part in it.
Jeremey
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Re: Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions
Quote:
Originally Posted by nhm16
I think if you shoot F-class, Savage comes out better cost-wise, even if you don't buy their F-class gun. Target action for $475, time & true for $125 (I hear that SSS will sell you a T&T target action for less than $475+$125=$600, but don't know for sure how much less), Farrell 20MOA base $70, Seekins or other similar rings ~$110 from Liberty Optics, SSS recoil lug $28 (though I'm not sure how necessary that is for target actions, which seem to have machined recoil lugs from the factory). According to the Savage website, the trigger guard is included. That's $808 not including shipping or FFL. Add $300-$400 for a high end barrel, and $800-$900 for a Sightron SIII from Liberty Optics, and you have a gun that can run with anything made for $2,000 or so total.
Well, that's what I'm telling myself as I price out such a gun ;D
Excuse me for being a newby: but who is SSS?