What size group possible with factory 12FV .223

I've started reloading and love it. I have a stock 12FV in .223, I switched out the stock for a choate but the barrel if factory. What kind of groups should I expect. I guess what I'm thinking is I'm getting what I feel are great groups out of it. under .5 inch with every group some as low as .26 but that was only with one five shot group so might be luck. My question is what are other people getting for groups on a regular basis with their loads, not just a single occurance. I don't want to set my expectations too high and spend a lot of money experimenting with loads when I should be saving it for a new barrel/ rifle/ etc.

If those are 100 yard groups with the factory barrel, I wouldn't change a thing until that barrel is worn out! ;)

I agree with Dirk. The only thing I would do is closely check the bedding, crank that action down into the stock and just shoot it. You say that you are just starting to reload. What loads are you using now? What bullets and what powder? You may want to try adjusting the seating depth a bit.

Consider yourself lucky. Just shoot it and then shoot it somemore. You will soon know if those -.500 groups are luck or not.

My factory barreled 223 would shoot between .35-.25 all day long.

If you were at an indoor range you could probably tighten it up a bit.

Spend a lot of money and a bit more.

If your rilfe is shooting .25" groups outdoors, I would not touch it.

Mine will shoot in the teens with the 55 Nosler BTs and Sierra 69s. Still working on some heavies. Got them around .5 consistently (right at the 1:9 twist limit) and I am getting closer. I'll shoot the 75 Hornady HPBTs pushed by 8208 and RL15 this weekend. Email me if you want some handy stuff on an excel spreadsheet.
Justin
jjkuchar@gmail.com

By the way guys 8208 meters great!

The first group I shot with the preferred load in my rifle was a .200". Wit that load, I regularly shoot .3-.4 from the bench outdoors with the normal Southern Idaho wind. I still turn in the occasional .2 so I would be willing to bet that this gun will do .200 all day under perfect conditions. I don't have my load data with me but the bullet is a 52gr sierra HP.

Although my rifle will typically shoot it's preferred bullet, the 60gr vmax, to .25moa, on a calm day when I can do my part it has produced several one hole groups with all bullets virtually on the same POI.

What are you shooting behind the 60gr vmaxes if you don't mind sharing.

The 60gr Vmax is over 24.5gr Varget in a Winchester case and CCI400 primer. It is a flat base bullet and is great out to about 200-300 yards.

You guys should feel bad making us drool like that over your small groups, post some pics so we can all enjoy.

I found that the Factory 223 rifles shoot great. I have seen many that shoot 5 shot 100 yard groups in the .2 area. I did a article on the model 10 precision carbine in 223, and I feel this gun has a lot of potential, if placed into a better stock. This is a couple of groups from the review.
[img width=600 height=450]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/IMG_0081.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/IMG_0080.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/IMG_0082.jpg[/img]

Mine (at 100 yds.) consistently shot under .5" with a couple of different loads and shot ~.25" enough to know that it wasn't just a fluke. Factory stock, free-floated but not bedded, and a simple benchrest setup. Gotta love those 'ugly' Savages.

82boy, what is complength?

I would think it's the length using a comparator.

My factory .223 barrel off my 12FV will consistently shoot groups similar to the ones posted above. I would leave things alone, wishing I took my own advice.

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Originally Posted by Specter65

I would think it's the length using a comparator.

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Yes, that is correct.

All you guys that claim that "my gun will shoot consistantly in the 2's and 3's" need to post a 5 bull target with 5-5 shot groups with none measuring over .4".
Shooting 3 shot groups don't count, and shooting an occasional screamer doesn't mean your gun is capable of it at any time.
It's harder than it sounds, guys... :o

With a properly broken-in Savage varmit rifle in 223, it is frequently the shooter's ability and limitations that determines minimum groups size, and not the rifle.

I agree with SS: 5 or 10 shots are the repeatability indicator, not 3, in a varmit rifle. If shooting 3 in 0.15" and 5 in 0.5", you are shooting 1/2" groups.

"your shooting 0.5" groups" that is closer to what a factory Savage is- a 1/2 MOA rifle consistantly- and .4's and .3's every once in awhile- or if you allow yourself a one flyer out of a 5 shot group. Thats pretty darn good for an under $500 rifle.

I agree with the posts above that 5 shot groups are the measure, and that you can't show off that one .2 group you shot and claim your gun shoots .2, luck does happen. Like I tell people if your gun shoots .2s with factory barrell and stock then you should be competing with it. I was just asking what other people have seen from their rifles that have shot and reloaded more with it than I. Mine shoots .5 or slightly under consistently with some more rare groups in the .3 high .2s, but then again I don't normally shoot tons of groups with the same load. I may shoot more with the new coyote load I worked up as it looks to be a winner, 60 vmax with 27gr of varget behind which is at the max so work up to it. My thought on my rifle is to instead of spending tons of money on componets to try and get a .5 rifle to shoot .2 is pointless to try, instead save money for new stock, glass, barrell, etc. My biggest changes to mine have been a choate stock and finally some good glass nikon monarch 2.5-10. I think a good high mag scope would tighten my groups some even, and more trigger time for myself wouldn't hurt either

When I say that my gun will shoot in the .2s, it is a valid claim. It has done it enough times that I can make that claim. I never said that I have the skill to shoot to my gun's capability every time. MY gun WILL shoot in the .2s with regularity. MY ability is about half that of my gun. When I do my part, the gun does its part and .2" groups are the result. The biggest issue that I fight is the fact that there is almost never a day where I live that there isn't at least a 10mph wind.

ctrout, what load shoots the .2s for your gun if you don't mind me asking. I know every rifle isn't the same, but may give me an idea of where to go with a load. I showed mine, will you show yours? ;D

I hope I'm not butting in on a blooming argument here but this has been of interest to me as a die hard Savage shooter. I have a Mod. 12 BVSS that I bought used in a big Choate Varmint stock and shot it that way for 2 years at paper with 60 gr. Bergers and was a competitor and sometimes winner at our local paper shoots. Decided to make a change and use it to shoot groundhogs. I put barrel and action in a B&C Medalist and shoot 36gr. Barnes Varmint Grenades to avoid ricochettes. 36gr. Var. Gren.- 27gr. Varget,- Win. case- Win. pr.- neck sized- light Lee crimp- 1.845 to ogive- moly coated- 1-9 twist. I wish I had figured out how to send the picture as yet still not well versed on computer usage. 5 bullets, one ragged hole covered by a dime and no visible tears at the edge of the dime. Cool day no wind. 100yds. Hell, I thought all Savages shoot that way. Quick

Quickshot-- with such a light bullet and considerable powder behind it, you are probably getting a pretty high velocity. Possibly high enough to get on the top of the barrel whip (a la Varmin Al's barrel whip theory), and thus have a considerable advantage in getting smaller groups. I went as small as a 40grain bullet and the bullets were still going higher and higher on the targets (because they were exiting closer and closer to the time of the maximum upward excursion of the barrel as it whipped due to the impulse sound shock wave in the metal barrel created by the powder ignition).

You may be getting your light bullets out at the peak of the whip movement, where the barrel is still for a moment.

In an attempt to reach the point where bullet exit occurred at the peak of the barrel whip (or even possibly to the up-movement timeframe) I went as low as 40 grain bullets with about 8 ounces of weight on the muzzle and demonstrated that finally the point of impact began to move downwards. Adding weight as I did, mechanically slows down the whip movement and gives the bullet a chance to exit earlier on the "whip" movement. I documented that my faster bullets finally were not striking quite as high as before, but I didn't use as much powder as you are. So even without the weight, you may be reaching the optimal point.

To read VarmintAl's thesis and watch the videos of his finite element analysis of barrel movement, see: http://www.varmintal.com/alite.htm

My .223 (with 68 grain Hornadies, not the above techniques) [carefully bedded cheapo Tupperware stock] does about .40 inches center to center for 5 consecutive shots when I am at my best. Thats in a competition where I was respectable but not winning by a LONG shot. I have once in a while seen slightly better and not infrequently seen 0.625, all with handloaded ammo. Maybe once in my life I've seen 5 consecutive below 0.375. That is definitely at the skinny side of the bell curve for my 12FV! With Remington Match I get about 0.5 or slightly worse. With Walmart crimped cannelured Remington UMC, the groups may be 1.5 - 2 inches at 100 yards. I don't think I have the best barrel out there. I'm replacing it with a Shilen 6PPC bull barrel / 6PPC bolt / custom stock, and we'll see what I get then.

Well yaw's got me all messed up now. I've got to figure out how to start whupping bullet's. How yaw catch them little booger's coming out the barrel so fast to whup em. Seriously though I've read varmital's thesis on barrel whup, does make sense to me. If all handloader's are like me your still trying to shoot the same hole. I'm still trying to catch them booger's though ;D

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under .5 inch with every group some as low as .26 but that was only with one five shot group so might be luck. My question is what are other people getting for groups on a regular basis with their loads, not just a single occurance. I don't want to set my expectations too high and spend a lot of money experimenting with loads when I should be saving it for a new barrel/ rifle/ etc.
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Don't act like you're on dope. Seriously, a barrel, ANY barrel, that is under .5 MOA for EVERY group out of doors is shooting GREAT. Put 5 groups of 5 together, what are you talking about in terms of average group size?

Don't take the "I shot 5 shots into .015 inches at 100 yards" as anything other than a pinch test. As in, I looked into a bag of results and pinched the best one I could find.

If you want a picture of how hard it is to be truly scientific about statistical analysis, look at the garbage code the Brits put out for their global warming hockey stick; otherwise, just be pleased you can pull a .3 MOA group out of your nether regions every now and again.

My club's range is infamous amongst all the benchrest weenies for the goofy winds that they have to deal with, instead of 3 windflags they all have 9-12 out to 200 yards, and they delight in trying to dope out the results. Are you reading wind like that when you shoot?

Like I said, .5 MOA is damned good and be happy with it.

Regards,
Brian in CA

PS MY 12FVSS in a B&C VarTac with my Zeiss and a cheesy Midway discount bipod will shoot .5's with all 4 223 recipes I handload, prone. My wife can't shoot prone (DD's) but her 10FP-LE1A shoots 3 of those loads .5 MOA as well (75 A-Max's no workee in a 20" tube).

Brian in CA
That was my thoughts when starting this topic that I should just be happy with the load I have load up a bunch of them and shoot and quit wasting money experimenting with a rifle that has no better capabilities then a consistent .5. You are right about the wind, I try and shoot on calm days, under 10mph wind only, but that could be a lot of the difference in group size alone.
Thanks for everyone's input on this topic.

69SMK at 2.33 to 2.34 oal over 26 of varget. One pretty hole. Fed 205, LC 09 brass
55 Nosler BTs at 2.33 other stuff the same. Same pretty hole but doesn't do quite as well in the wind. Super fun if you are shooting at stuff other than paper.

75G Hornady BTHP 23.8 of 8208 XBR with BR4 primers. They 70s, 73s and 75s do better with the thicker primer cups of the BR4s and the hotter loads in my Savage 12 LRPV

>>>>PS MY 12FVSS in a B&C VarTac with my Zeiss and a cheesy Midway discount bipod will shoot .5&#39;s with all 4 223 recipes I handload, prone. My wife can&#39;t shoot prone (DD&#39;s) but her 10FP-LE1A shoots 3 of those loads .5 MOA as well (75 A-Max&#39;s no workee in a 20" tube).<<<<<<

Posting some pix of the DD&#39;s Would be a fine addition to this conversation... ;D Bill

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fatdaddy

Posting some pix of the DD&#39;s Would be a fine addition to this conversation... ;D Bill

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...I don&#39;t know about his DD&#39;s but this might be a good fill in..lol..http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/M-1.jpg

Now THATS what im talkin about... Now I cant shoot prone ..... :o Bill

http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...c,29625.0.html

Model 10FCP-K .223. A good Model 12 should do the same.

...On a good calm day out of my VLP that I only shoot every now and then...I have other guns to play with...lol..
Nosler 69&#39;s, Lapua, 25grs Varget, 205M&#39;s with alittle jump.. ;)..
...5@100...

[img width=600 height=449]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/nos.jpg[/img]

A box stock 12FV did take the inaugual IDDSA Championship.

http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...c,26079.0.html