There data almost the same at the minimum and identical at the max. So that being said. 42.3gr to 42.5gr min and 46.5 gr max is what i should do. I probably wont do max until skill has developed.
Thank you
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If your going to "start at the cellar" then there would be no need to go any lower even when using military brass. Just look for pressure signs as you increase your loads….as you would with commercial brass….but be aware that those pressure signs could (yes that's a could) come before they would if you were using commercial brass.
Dave
Again thanks Dave.
Got another guestion. I was researching what the meaning "off the lands" means. I pretty certain that its the distance from where the bullet comes from touching the very beginning of the rifleing on the barrel, right? And that could help or hurt accuracy or become dangerous if the bullet actually touches the land when attempting to fire it, by having to much pressure in chamber. And that u shouldnt be more than .020 away either. So it would seem that if a person changed the lands that would change the over all length. I thought over al length was critical. or is that what i should be more concetrating on .
I'm a relative newbie at reloading but I'll take a stab at some of your questions. lands is where the bullet engages the beginning of rifling twist in your bore. Some shooters--like certain match calibers--will actually develop their loads so that the bullets are engaged into the lands upon chambering. But these are not your "everyday rifles" and generally most hand-loaders will seat their bullets with a bit of space or "jump" off the lands (though some do load right into the lands). The relationship is not entirely absolute--in other words while most bullet/powder combos can be improved upon (one of the main benefits of hand loading) by adjusting your bullet seating (usually by measuring distance to the bullet's ogive as opposed to the "conventional" overall cartridge length) so that they are closer to the lands--there are some bullets and chambers which "prefer" a generous jump.
Over-all cartridge length is simply a standard to provide a high degree of conformity of manufacturer's ammo to manufacturer's rifles. As hand-loaders we "push those boundaries" a bit in search of accuracy that out-performs the manufacturer's standards. Factors such as your magazine's length capacity and dimensions of your rifle's chamber will determine how far you can push those boundaries--along with the safety limitations of the powder loads within the case. General rules of thumb are develop your loads cautiously working your way up toward max loads--and be sure to examine your cases carefully and know the signs of incipient overpressure or other problems. A gun blowing up on you can ruin your day.
You are correct on what "off the lands" means. Someone once gave an explanation of if you seat the bullet on the lands as this:
Start a nail in a piece of wood. Now place the hammer on top of the nail(bullet touching lands) now push the nail into the board....If it were possible it would take more pressure to do so rather then "Swinging" (bullet jump) the hammer to drive the nail.
On the part of "shouldn't be more than .020 away either" are you saying you should not be LESS or MORE then .020 off the lands?
I have some rounds for my .308 that love it .010 off the lands, while another is .050 off. ALL guns will be different, yours may not like what mine does. I have heard SOME loaders say that theirs love it touching the lands, but for me I would not be LESS then .010 off the lands.
Just my 2¢
Dang thermaler, you replied while I was slow typing!! =;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fla9-40;2j15707
I had read not to go futher away than .020 from the lands, but with the internet you can get multiple responses. That being why i like to double and triple check everything. I did finally get the meaning of what the off the lands means, and what it does. I continued my research long into the early morning. I will probably wait awhile before i start experimenting with that part. I want to get my powder loads down path and etc first. I did find a great chart of how to adjust the lands relative to the powder charge.
Again thanks for all the help. Im a guy of a thousand questions.
168SMK like 0.030 and 0.040 for the 175 in my guns. I know some guys that are jumping the 155 Palma 0.100"
Despite the caveats--I would encourage you to experiment with your bullet seating depths and charges--otherwise all you can hope for is repeating factory ammo accuracy--which to most hand-loaders is unacceptable. : ) Get yourself an OAL gauge, modified case(s) and a comparator for your caliper micrometer and you are good to go. My experience with axis and 111 chambers/throats and magazines is that they are "generous" and provide room for experimentation; reasons I like Savages so much.
i dont own any gauges i just use my calipers. i get my seating depth by closing the bolt on a dummy case with a partialy seated bullet.
use the calipers from there. on my lee dies i swap out the lock ring for one with a set screw. i dont deprime with my dies and i remove the
decapping pins. i use a small seperate press with a decapping die which fits all cases (almost). used presses are very reasonable on ebay.
i buy dies on there also. i hate case trimming and usually save that for somebody who wants to help. i hand prime one at a time as thats
how i cull out my cases unless a split shows up. (a really nice bull just walked past the camp within 100') if they go in loose i bang the head
on the bench. if the primer pops out it gets chucked if not its set aside for 1 more firing during practice at rocks. i dont compete so i dont
use any special dies. i do use o rings under my seaters and i rotate the case when i seat. i full legnth size everything. my bag is hunting and i want every one to go in and every one to come out.
I got my dies and trimmer in today finally. I set my dies up per the instructions and started. i lubed 20 cases and full length sized and deprimed them. that went pretty smooth, i did notice a little tool mark about a 1/4 inch below the shoulder, barely can be felt with fingernail, making a circle around the case. Is that normal? seems more cosmetic to me. also after trimming, deburring and chamfering it i can feel a lip on outside of the mouth, is that normal, i beleive it would come off very easy with 00 steel wool. i had to go to work and had to stop for now.
That doesn't seem normal to me. You probably posted this….but I'll ask again….why brand of dies did you buy? Also….can you post a picture of this tool mark?
Hmmmm…..where do you feel this lip? Is it right on the edge of the case mouth? Again, a pic would be very helpful here. But a lip? When you trim your not "pressing" to hard on the cutting tool to create this lip are you? You know….forcing or pushing the brass out?
Dave
Sounds like your on your way. I recommend a fairly religious use of safety glasses. !
I'm a great fan of Lee diesbut own most brands in 1 caliber or more.
The 308 has so much data available for it that you can almost find it in the newspaper. . I am loading Rl15 for my wife's 308. But that's because I horde my Varget for my 6.5 Creedmoor.
Reloading is very addictive. I don't own a rim fire that I shoot. Can't reload it.
Best pic i could get for now.
http://imageshack.com/a/img593/6971/56y9.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com
http://imageshack.com/a/img845/7392/ximj.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com
another
i took measurments of these 3 cases. Everything seems close to what i should expect.
Inside the mouth is .307
Neck diameter is .336
Case diameter below shoulder is .453
Case diameter at bottom is .468
Case oal is 2.010
What lube are you using on the cases?
What's the Plc for in the back ground?
great news. came home after work. set my dies up again. decided to put less lube on my cases and the problem has seemed to go away, i did look threw the other cases and it seemd like it got better after 10-15. they may been a burr up in the die and got worked out. i will update if it comes back. I did email Lee about the issue earlier.
The tool mark should not be there. Make sure you have cleaned your dies inside with a bore solvent to remove any die coating. Then, I would re-read the install instructions and just make sure your dies are installed correctly. (And if your getting the right measurements….it would seem they are)
If you still get the ring, then call Lee and tell them what you are getting on your brass. Send them the pics. They should send you a new die.
Dave
Yeah what Dave said about cleaning the dies out, I really like the lee lube myself.
I saw the ab box and was curious
You will come out cheaper by the time you add hazmat fees to your purchase!
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The marks on the shoulder of the 3 cases look like you had too much lube on them and it will make marks like that. Also when you lube just put it on the neck and body of the case, none on the shoulders. I have used many lubes over the years and I have been using Imperial wax and like it a lot.
I have had to polish the inside of Lee dies some times with 0000 steel wool on a rod in a drill to get rid of tool marks.
Just send Lee an E-mail and they will send you another one. Quality control has slipped with a lot of manufacturers in the firearms world because of high demand. Lee customer service is great.
I was looking at what looks like a mark up on the shoulder, that may be a reflection. The ring looks like a defect or something in the die.
Just a thought. If there was a defect would it not be longer than just in one spot. Ever look at the marks a dirty die makes on brass? Long scratches. A ring like that with nothing leading up to it is add no doubt.
Finally got time to make a few rounds. I had primerd about 50 rounds a few days back. I started tonight with 42.3gr Varget and using the 150 grain FMJ's. I found some of the FMJ's to have chips in them as I removed them from the bag, so I sorted and continued. I double checked my info, and the chart said for me to seat them a min OAL at 2.800 and 2.810 max, I got my bullet die out and set up to the instructions, I grabbed some of the brass with the rings in them to use as a "dummy" round and set a bullet, It turned out around 2.600, way deep. I made the proper adjustments and finally got them to set around 2.803. feeling comfortable I got my charged rounds and set a few and checked the OAL as I went, Then I started getting a few that set deeper about 2.785 OAL," I removed them" and maybe 2 that was about the max. I started measuring each FMJ bullet out of the bag before loading and found them to vary in length, about .015 difference, that's when I stopped everything. I'm not certain as how that would make different OAL because it seems it should still compress if they where longer and the remaining would remain out to make the OAL, unless the compression is pushing it back out. Tomorrow I'm going to try and purchase some Sierra Game Kings or SMK's and try them. And see how they turn out. I am almost certain I completed every step correct, and I triple checked everything as I went. I did end up with about 10 complete rounds that I feel to be in good condition. They cycled in my action and etc without firing them. But I just don't know if I even want to shoot them since I wont continue to reload any like that.
Do any of you guys have any ideas of what would be going wrong here? hopefully its just the bullets I bought, and will resolve on its own.
You will get different COL by measuring from the tip of a bullet. I would recommend you get a bullet comparator and set your COL with this.
Now on the other had, bullets will have different ogive in the same batch so the COL might be off by as much as .015± so to get it as near as possible you would have to measure each bullet with the comparator and sort them appropriately. But if your not shooting in a $1mill match or seating close/on the lands, I don't see you need to be this anal!
This tool will also work great to get a measurement of where that particular bullet is seating on the lands.
Here is the Hornady bullet comparator at Natchez
Read the product description on this one:
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm...4&src=exrbSrch
And the more expensive one:
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm...4&src=exrbSrch
Today I stopped and bought a box of Sierra 150 gr spt hunter pro. I had better results with getting the same OAL length at 2.800 when loading them, I loaded 5 different sets of 42.3gr, 42.8gr, 43.2gr, 43.7gr, and 44.2gr. And set Hoping to get some type of decent results tomorrow. Wish me luck.
Hmmmm...I'm going out on a limb here and venturing a few opinions that others may or may not agree with. It sounds to me like you are not measuring the specific bullet to your chamber--rather you are simply going by SAAMI spec for the over-all cartridge length (COL or COAL) as opposed to seating the bullet to the part of the bullet where the curve begins--otherwise known as measuring Cartridge Base To Ogive (CBTO or CBO).
You're starting off with a bullet design closer to a "flat-base" design (not as ballistically efficient as say the matchking or even gameking). I'm sure you'll get adequate results for taking deer--but don't be frustrated if you don't get spectacular one-hole groupings. On the other hand who knows--you may get lucky and prove me wrong . : )
The ring on the case looks to me like the mark left by an outside chamfering (deburring) tool. If your using the lee, be sure to not let the tool rub the side of the case
yes I measuring it to SAAMI specs at the momunt. these are some of my very fist rounds made, im not looking for MOA groups at the moment, just to get them down the range safely. i am going to play with setting them off the lands after i get more comfortable with what im doing, Thanks
to amuse myself I done the so-called smoke test to determine how far of the Lands I am and I am getting roughly .020 of the lands, I know this ain't the correct way to do it. and I will be buying a kit to do it properly. I don't like short cuts.
since I have finally started reloading do I need to start asking any other particular reloading questions on another topic? so I don't keep dragging this one out.
Kinda surprised your seating takes you that close and you're actually measuring under SAAMI COL--but maybe that's a tight chamber. My axiis and 111's have lot's of room to spare. I don't think you have anything to worry about--assuming that's your actual jump off the lands. Good luck--and post pics : )
I with thermaler, I have a remington 700vls in 308. Its the same barrel and action as the 700 police and and sps tactical and there is no way to seat the bullets close to the lands and fit the factory magazine... it would have to be a single shot rifle.. I actually started at 2.800 with my load test, then srarted seating the bullet deeper till I got the best group..
As mentioned above, I have found that it is imperative that you use a comparator vecause diferent bullet brands have different shapes and your jump to the lands can vary based on bullet brand!
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It dID seem wild to me that seating my over all length at 2.800 that it sets my bullet .020 to .025 of the lands. So i went back and checked again. And I got the same results, even trying other methods. I even increased my overall length on a dummy round with a little tension on the neck to 2.840 and 2.850 and it started leaving marks from the lands and pushed the bullets into the case neck further, making the bullet stop and giveing me a OAL of 2.825 with the bullet touching the lands.
I talked to one of the master machinist/engineer at work that has been reloading for years. I told him every method I tried and he sounded like I was getting the right results.
A quick search on the vast world of Internet wisdom tells me that your rifle likely has a tight chamber as manufactured--which in many ways is a good thing. I'm no expert--but you might have to watch things a bit more closely as a first time reloader since you will have tighter tolerances. Watch the case dimensions carefully--especially things like base to shoulder distance before/after firing and whether or not you encounter any stiffness or difficulty opening/closing the bolt. I would keep the cases segregated in batches according to firings/manufacturers. I'm guessing that you will get great results when you find the right load recipe, and perhaps even less work/longer life out of your cases. You may even want to consider buying a 308 axis as your "learning to reload gun" as it has lots of room to spare and is generally very forgiving, and once you've honed your skills go back to your 10 fp--just a thought.
The weather finall gave me a chance to go out and try them. My first 4 sets wasnt that great. But was omd paper. My last group of 5 shots off 44.2 gr varget gave me roughly a 1.25 inch group at 100 yards. I had factors such as crosswinds and being unsteady affect me. So the group could have been better perhaps. I had no pressure signs at all on any case. Maybe the best thing yet they shot better than 2 factory brands of ammo i brought with me. The federals have always shot great but didnt today. But that could have been the wind that i mentioned also. So i am very pleased so far. Specially since their is more testing to come. Will post pic when i get off work tonight. Thanks
Thats close to my pet load for my 308.. 42.0gr varget with hornady 168 match and fed gm210 primer
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http://imageshack.com/a/img34/8409/xs8w.jpg
This my results today with 44.8 gr Varget at .020 off the lands. This a 5 shot group. Very pleased
awesome!
In my experience a vertical string like you posted indicates either a hunger for more powder or more consistant neck tension. Either way it looks very good and gives you something to start refining. The hard part is deciding what is "good enough" and when you reach the point you realize the guy pulling the trigger is the weak link.
I had shot a group with a .3 higher grain charge and the group opend up a little. I am going to play with the seating and other variables. I was shooting off a bipod and didnt have the butt end properly stable, so that may have something to do with the verticle movement. I made 25 more exact loads just havnt had chance to go shoot them. Weather has been nasty.
The bipod can do it too as they have a tendency to jump at the shot. Try placing it on a piece of carpet or anything that will slide smoothly on your bench. If you don't have a front rest, I'll recommend the Caldwell Rock Jr as a starter that works well, is nice and heavy for its small size and is a measly $30. That alone may get rid of your vertical stringing. Of course this is only if you have shot multiple targets with vertical dispersion. 1 group doesn't say much.
+ 1 on these three powder recommendations. My .308's love Sierra Bullets particularly 165 Game Kings. 168 Bthp Match but 175 BTHP even better. Make a note of all the great comments on this string.
:adoration:
That looks like my .308 Varget loads!!! Very nice!! As Maztech89 has stated, the vertical string could be a result of several factors including even just one-tenth more of a powder charge, your front rest, the "nut" behind the trigger (that would be YOU!!).
Perhaps you mentioned the primers you are using, but I didn't read back thru this thread to see. I know when you began this project components were sometimes tough to get. I had been a consistent Winchester primer user until my buddy suggested trying CCI. I switched to CCI for my 6.5 Swede, and my Standard Deviation of 10 shot strings dropped (I can't recall the number now) a fair amount, and my groups at 200 and 300 yards have closed up much tighter.
Just a thought.
Dave