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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Have two mod.12s. One pre accu.trig and one with. Awaiting your test conclusions and anxious to try it. Especially since it requires no modifications to bolt innards. As with others, willing to contribute to the cause. Quick
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Great deed Dolomite.
I have 3 savages and 9 barrels. I`d love to try one of these as well. Please put me on your list. I`m certainly willing to pay for it when you feel it`s ready.
Moose.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Thanks for all the work to the Savage community, dolomite.
Maybe I'm not very safety-orientated or what-not, but what possible issues could arise with this (or the .38) lift-kit?
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by firemachine69
Thanks for all the work to the Savage community, dolomite.
Maybe I'm not very safety-orientated or what-not, but what possible issues could arise with this (or the .38) lift-kit?
Some people report a slightly higher bolt lift effort because of the added .075" the kit. This is the reason some say to reduce the length of the BAS or the cocking sleeve by the thickness of the bolt lift kit. Other than that nothing really, this is a well established mod here with penty of positive feedback on it.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
initial nut shell
1 putting in the 38 style kit with no other change increases firing pin spring pressure, reduces rotating frictional surface area.
2 putting the 38 kit in with appropriate screw length reduction reduces friction. firing pin spring stays the same.
3 putting in the washer kit reduces firing pin spring pressure.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the pressure on the firing pin spring
be determined by the round pin on the side of the bolt and it's position
when it is engaged by the sear?.
And if that's the case, the spring pressure when cocked would not change.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
LeeH, if you don't change the sear position, then you are not changing the cocking piece pin location when cocked.
The bolt assembly screw pushes on the cocking piece sleeve and this compresses the firing pin spring. If you change the effective length of the bolt assembly screw you change the firing pin spring preload.
If you adjust the cocking piece, you adjust firing pin travel.
Adjusting firing pin travel changes the amount of firing pin spring compression.
If anyone wants my two cents on this thread, here goes.
Fred gave us his idea of using the 38 case bolt lift kit. It simply works. There is basically zero friction there with this kit.
Fred has warned us many times that consistent ignition is important. Leave the firing pin spring alone, this rifle needs 25lbs of spring pressure.
To lower the lifting effort more than a 38 case kit, you would need a roller cocking piece pin.
If, for some reason, you want the bolt to lower better, break the edge and polish the notch that holds the rear baffle in place.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
This setup is not a 38 special case or even remotely based on it. Totally different design that so far seems to work on some rifles. It is still too early to tell but initial reports seem positive.
My version of the 38 special case bolt lift kit uses a pointed setscrew rather than a ball bearing, is one better than the other?, hard to say.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Thanks PEI Rob...
That would be true for the .38 case setup.
BUT I was referring to Dolomites new setup that Blue Avenger referred to.
There are no changes to the spring or cocking piece.
I would leave it to Dolomite disclose any more information as to what it looks like
and how it works.
Kinda like a barrel of worms stuck on a hot plate.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
Thanks PEI Rob...
That would be true for the .38 case setup.
BUT I was referring to Dolomites new setup that Blue Avenger referred to.
There are no changes to the spring or cocking piece.
I would leave it to Dolomite disclose any more information as to what it looks like
and how it works.
Kinda like a barrel of worms stuck on a hot plate.
Reflecting further, if anything it would reduce the pre load and to my way of thinking
you would still have full spring compression when cocked so possibly something
gained and nothing lost.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Are any of you "testers" checking rotation torque using a gauge off of the center of the bolt or only a
fish scale from the bolt handle?
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
I am using scale....but checking the torque would be the way to go.
but i'm afraid not too many are able to do that.
On second thought, I have a "FAT" wrench, i'll see if I can cook
something up.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sliderule
Are any of you "testers" checking rotation torque using a gauge off of the center of the bolt or only a
fish scale from the bolt handle?
If someone has the ability to test this way let me know. I might be able to crap another kit for someone to test.
Personally I am able to "feel" a difference. A few other testers are seeing the same thing and are pleased with the results. Now this doesn't replace expensive testing equipment but it does prove that people are seeing an improvement which is all I was looking for from the begining, an improvement.
Dolomite.
BTW, I appreciate all the effort you are putting into this LeeH. Whenever I get another batch in I'll make sure you get a few more for you and your friends.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
Thanks PEI Rob...
That would be true for the .38 case setup.
BUT I was referring to Dolomites new setup that Blue Avenger referred to.
There are no changes to the spring or cocking piece.
I would leave it to Dolomite disclose any more information as to what it looks like
and how it works.
Kinda like a barrel of worms stuck on a hot plate.
Reflecting further, if anything it would reduce the pre load and to my way of thinking
you would still have full spring compression when cocked so possibly something
gained and nothing lost.
I don't have one of these so I cannot say.
Dolomite, if you want to send me a pic, I can advise on that alone. I could make my own parts and try the kit if you wish, totally up to you. However, I will not post my opinion or results in the open forum even if you wanted me to because they are still in testing. I do not feel that is fair to the designer. If they were already being sold, yes I would comment.
Rob
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
I am using scale....but checking the torque would be the way to go.
but i'm afraid not too many are able to do that.
On second thought, I have a "FAT" wrench, i'll see if I can cook
something up.
Well I tried the FAT wrench but it only go's to 60 in/lb and it was not enough with
or without the kit.
Somewhere in all my junk I have a regular torque wrench.
I will try and find it tomorrow.
Cheers
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by PEI Rob
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
Thanks PEI Rob...
That would be true for the .38 case setup.
BUT I was referring to Dolomites new setup that Blue Avenger referred to.
There are no changes to the spring or cocking piece.
I would leave it to Dolomite disclose any more information as to what it looks like
and how it works.
Kinda like a barrel of worms stuck on a hot plate.
Reflecting further, if anything it would reduce the pre load and to my way of thinking
you would still have full spring compression when cocked so possibly something
gained and nothing lost.
I don't have one of these so I cannot say.
Dolomite, if you want to send me a pic, I can advise on that alone. I could make my own parts and try the kit if you wish, totally up to you. However, I will not post my opinion or results in the open forum even if you wanted me to because they are still in testing. I do not feel that is fair to the designer. If they were already being sold, yes I would comment.
Rob
I appreciate the offer but I only want people to test my kit and not test one they made themselves based on pictures or my specs. By allowing someone else to make them, at least for now, I loose control over how they are made and tested.
From the begining I asked all the testers to not post pictures. It isn't the fact I am going to be selling them or worried about patents. I am more worried that an unforeseen flaw might crop up. I do not want others to try to duplicate these, based on pictures, when there might be a problem and potentially injuring themselves or others. This is why I am waiting to hear everything there is to hear about my kits before I will have any more made and hand them out.
I suspect it is going to be a while before I have more made because I still need people to shoot their firearms in which these kits are installed. I just want to make absolutely sure that in addition to having a light bolt they fire and function as they should also.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
Thanks PEI Rob...
That would be true for the .38 case setup.
BUT I was referring to Dolomites new setup that Blue Avenger referred to.
There are no changes to the spring or cocking piece.
I would leave it to Dolomite disclose any more information as to what it looks like
and how it works.
Kinda like a barrel of worms stuck on a hot plate.
Reflecting further, if anything it would reduce the pre load and to my way of thinking
you would still have full spring compression when cocked so possibly something
gained and nothing lost.
no you do not have full pressure when cocked. this is just a passive way of clipping a coil off.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
i'd love to get my hands on one of these kits. I seem to have a pretty good catch in my bolt, to me anyways. I need some way to smooth it out. Be happy to buy one or whatever, donation perhaps would be a better way to say. Thanks for the help from everybody!
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Avenger
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
Thanks PEI Rob...
That would be true for the .38 case setup.
BUT I was referring to Dolomites new setup that Blue Avenger referred to.
There are no changes to the spring or cocking piece.
I would leave it to Dolomite disclose any more information as to what it looks like
and how it works.
Kinda like a barrel of worms stuck on a hot plate.
Reflecting further, if anything it would reduce the pre load and to my way of thinking
you would still have full spring compression when cocked so possibly something
gained and nothing lost.
no you do not have full pressure when cocked. this is just a passive way of clipping a coil off.
Maybe I am having brain fade....But If the spring has NOT been shortened and is fully cocked,
how could it be lighter?.
I can see a reduced pre-load on the spring but no reduction in total spring pressure when cocked.
Please Educate me.
LeeH
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
spring pressure is also a reaction of pressure from the cocking sleeve. did you change the position of the sleeve?
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Avenger
spring pressure is a reaction of pressure from the cocking sleeve. did you change the position of the sleeve?
Not at all...nothing was changed, adjusted or modified.
Just inserted the kit and was good to go.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
guess you do not understand how it really works in there.
the spring is contained on the firing pin. and pushes against something to cause a reaction. now you think about it and tell me what it is pushing against.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Avenger
guess you do not understand how it really works in there.
the spring is contained on the firing pin. and pushes against something to cause a reaction. now you think about it and tell me what it is pushing against.
Like I said BRAIN FADE!!!....I stand corrected!!
Thanks
LeeH
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
;) I had to lay a bunch of parts to to see it.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
It has been over a year, is there any updates on how this is going?
Michael Grace
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
I would be interested two!!!!
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
I'm still using the original I received from Gordon and it's working fine to this day.
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
They were never for sale and were never intended for sale. I posted this information so others can see what I did.
I do not have any for sale and never will. I to have had one of these kits installed for at least 500 rounds and it is working as good as the day I installed it.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
I think this came up as an item that can be purchased:
http://www.avidrc.com/product/13/thr...-bearings.html
It has a few more bearings than Gordon's/dolomite's solution but is the same principle.
or better yet:
http://www.avidrc.com/product/13/thrust-bearings/
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
Gordon, is this something you would be willing to show in a flyer with instructions and part no's? With a disclaimer as to liablility included? It seems there is a ready market and there are endorsements in this thread as to its effectiveness.
El Lobo
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Re: Bolt lift kit for new bolts with cocking idicators as well as older style bolts
The thrust bearing I used in this thread is part# 6655K11 from McMaster Carr.
I removed one of the races and the bottom of the BAS is where the bearing rode directly on.
I then made a spacer that is the same thickness as the bearing and the one race that sits on top of the cocking sleeve. That spacer goes in between the BAS and bolt body. This gives you the same amount of spring pressure as before.
Even if you use the 38 special method making a spacer the same thickness as what is displaced is easier than trying to machine the BAS for most people. I know in my testing I found washers that worked very well. May not be the prettiest but they did work well.
And before you ask, I will not make spacers or have them for sale or give them away.
Dolomite