Concentricity - how big of a difference?

I have found that concentricity problems are more likely to be in the brass itself, not in the dies. If a case has .0 runout coming out of the sizer die, you cant fault the die. I tried many seater dies with equal luck, and when it was bad, it was always traced back to the brass being the culprit. When seating a bullet, it will always move to the weak side of the neck. Whether it is thicker on one side or just stiffer, it will always move to the weak side. Another cause is the case mouth being slightly out of square, tipping the bullet as it seats. It also helps to use a low angle chamfer on the mouth to reduce the starting pressure.

The only thing I don't like about fixed bearings on the Sinclair and the like is it can eccentuate the runout with the cartridge body not springing back exactly the same so there are arguments to both. I agree with bill having 2 indicators. Personally using quality dies and a Wilson to seat I don't even check them as they can shoot in the zero's with my 6ppc.

Long range, you cut into that shoulder at the wrong angle possibly weakening it. If you don't have a pma tool with the correct shoulder angle you should only cut to the shoulder radius and as you fire it that way it will blend nicely.

YoBuck - in the next couple of days I'll tackle the picture posting and give a walleye lure (or two). The best ones are the lures hanging off the chin of a 30" walleye, right?

But I do have a question - getting back to my 250AI. Admittedly not a very standard cartridge I selected, but one I've always wanted to try, and since it was time to rebarrel I thought it would also be a good time to get one. Good selection or not - that's the one cartridge I'm going to do some work on.

As suggested - I did some research on reloading tooling, procedures others have suggested above. I'm thinking LE Wilson Hand Dies - for a 250 Savage Ackley Improved. A Wilson bushing die for 250AI would be a custom die - I could purchase the blank, take it to my gunsmith that reamed my chamber, and ream a die.

But IF the 22-250 AI Wilson die with different bushing works - it's a stock die. Since the Wilson Hand Dies are bushing dies - will a 22-250 Ackley improved Wilson Hand Die work with the appropriate bushing for the .257 bore?

Second question - as I contemplate the arbor press. I don't need the arbor press to be portable (all reloading will take place in my reloading room) - any reason why I can't use my bench top drill press as an arbor press? They make these hand dies work with a hammer, I would think the drill press, chucked up with a push bar would work.

I've got a plan to experiment with another die too - which will have to be a custom die made from my fired brass. But that's down the road, if at all. More on that later.

Couple things I've learned reloading-

1- quality brass will get you tighter groups than neck turning. This is your foundation to an accurate round. That said I've had good luck with Winchester more so than Hornady or federal on the cheaper end. If you do turn the necks, only take a portion of the brass "the high spots", not removing 100 of the surface area on the neck. Like 60-70% should be shinny when finished

2- lee collet dies used properly will yield runout that you pay dearly for with other brands. I run my match 308 and 260 on lee collet dies and 90% of rounds have .002 or less runout measured with a Hollands concentricity gauge. None over .004.

3- Annealing can play a significant factor in how consistent your rounds are.

I have shot rounds with .006 runout and rounds with .001 runout against each other- made no difference in a factory barrel and minor difference in custom barrel.

Also shot annealed rounds against non annealed rounds in a custom barrel. At 300 yards (5shots) the annealed shot a group almost half the size on the non annealed. Annealed also showed a spread of 20 fps vs non annealed with a spread of 37 fps- same loads other than the annealing

[QUOTE=Burr;316224]YoBuck - in the next couple of days I'll tackle the picture posting and give a walleye lure (or two). The best ones are the lures hanging off the chin of a 30" walleye, right?

NO,i dont think that is right, but it does sell lures.
5 years ago, i didnt know a single person who annealed their cases.
Yet several of my friends have been record holders at Williamsport. The only guy
to have ever to this day won the best agregate award for all matches in a single year 2 times, never annealed his cases.
Which at least in my opinion prooves we just cant buy our way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jonbearman

Long range, you cut into that shoulder at the wrong angle possibly weakening it. If you don't have a pma tool with the correct shoulder angle you should only cut to the shoulder radius and as you fire it that way it will blend nicely.

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That case was actually not cut into the shoulder enough as those cases formed doughnuts...the reason it looks funny is because the cutter barely touched the shoulder so the angle in the cutter didnt blend the junction...If you dont cut into the shoulder enough you get doughnuts to much and you blow the necks off as im sure you know. That case was strong as it shot a 140g hornady at 3075fps....the neck was fine but the primer pocket wasnt happy lol.

yobuck.....i bet jim richards anneals his brass.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ory-be-amazed/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hafejd30

Couple things I've learned reloading-

1- quality brass will get you tighter groups than neck turning. This is your foundation to an accurate round. That said I've had good luck with Winchester more so than Hornady or federal on the cheaper end. If you do turn the necks, only take a portion of the brass "the high spots", not removing 100 of the surface area on the neck. Like 60-70% should be shinny when finished

2- lee collet dies used properly will yield runout that you pay dearly for with other brands. I run my match 308 and 260 on lee collet dies and 90% of rounds have .002 or less runout measured with a Hollands concentricity gauge. None over .004.

3- Annealing can play a significant factor in how consistent your rounds are.

I have shot rounds with .006 runout and rounds with .001 runout against each other- made no difference in a factory barrel and minor difference in custom barrel.

Also shot annealed rounds against non annealed rounds in a custom barrel. At 300 yards (5shots) the annealed shot a group almost half the size on the non annealed. Annealed also showed a spread of 20 fps vs non annealed with a spread of 37 fps- same loads other than the annealing

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I'm pretty much on board with what you're stating. Last week I had to work out of town, the good part was there's a pretty well stocked reloading store that I visit when I work there. While $111 is a healthy amount to pay for brass, I didn't have to pay for shipping since I was there to take it home. With the bonus being Lapua brass - which is annealed, and reported to be rather consistent neck thickness , so turning may be minimized. So I'm not pulling bullets in my 22-250 loaded rounds to reload anymore.

The other option I mentioned above that I had a plan to try - is the LCD. I'll send a few formed cases, and it's still not that expensive at the website rates to have a custom LCD set made, which will also provide me with another bullet seating option to try.

I don't usually buy things like dies 3 times for the same cartridge - but I want to try a few different things and compare/evaluate the results. I realize almost none of these things will make a difference on minute of deer inside 300 yards. But I want to explore the longer distances and know I have to tighten things up to have consistency at longer distances. So I'm going to give it a whirl and try some things, compare the results. INCLUDING the standard off the shelf Redding die.

I've always stayed away from digital, electronic tools for reloading when I have a mechanical option. It's that fear of reaching for a tool to find out the battery deteriorated and ruined the tool. So I have mostly mechanical tools. Sorting brass is, well, interesting with beam equipment....

How frequent is the annealing process? 4-5 reloads and time to anneal again?

I use lapua brass as well. I anneal every load. I have a bench source annealer so it's simple to use. Every couple would probably be fine tho. Know what your doing. There's a fine line between doing nothing and frying case necks. Tempilaq works well for this.

i shoot lapua brass as well and anneal every second firing...like hafejd said get some Tempilaq 750 so you know your getting the right heat.

also $111 bucks isnt a bad price...look at it this way...if you load that 20 times its actually only 5.5 cents each and if you take care of that brass you will be able to get more out of it then that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LongRange

yobuck.....i bet jim richards anneals his brass.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ory-be-amazed/

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Well today it seems everybody does including me. I have no doubt my brass will last a little longer due to that but i do doubt
im a noticably better shooter due to it.
To me in my own strange way of evaluating things there is really only 1 way of making very good chicken soup.
So i choose not to make chicken soup. Im willing to settle for the best canned variety.
I chose chicken specificly so as not to have any over the hill bull involved. lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yobuck

Well today it seems everybody does including me. I have no doubt my brass will last a little longer due to that but i do doubt
im a noticably better shooter due to it.
To me in my own strange way of evaluating things there is really only 1 way of making very good chicken soup.
So i choose not to make chicken soup. Im willing to settle for the best canned variety.
I chose chicken specificly so as not to have any over the hill bull involved. lol

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its a good thing you only eat chicken now because your full of bull LMAO!!!

all the prep work i do dont make me a better shooter(as youve seen by my group pics)but it does take case issues out of the equation so that when i shoot a low score i cant blame my ammo. as far as annealing what ive found is that with annealed brass i get .000.5 spring back when sizing which gives me more consistent neck tension and lower ES's...after 2 firings(third time loading)if not annealed the spring back goes to .001 and continues to get worse up to about.001.5 to .002 with 5x fired brass.
like hafejd i know several guys that anneal every time but for me every second firing seems to work well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LongRange

its a good thing you only eat chicken now because your full of bull LMAO!!!

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They say the surface of the planet is about 2/3 water.
But what we dont know at least for sure is how much of the remaining 1/3 is covered with B S.
One thing is for sure however in that shooters, hunters and fishermen are responsible for an awfull lot of it.
Except thee and me, and sometimes im very suspicious about thee. lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yobuck

They say the surface of the planet is about 2/3 water.
But what we dont know at least for sure is how much of the remaining 1/3 is covered with B S.
One thing is for sure however in that shooters, hunters and fishermen are responsible for an awfull lot of it.
Except thee and me, and sometimes im very suspicious about thee. lol

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Lmao now aint that the truth!!
Ive heard more BS come out of those three groups than most any others.

[QUOTE=yobuck;316235]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burr

YoBuck - in the next couple of days I'll tackle the picture posting and give a walleye lure (or two). The best ones are the lures hanging off the chin of a 30" walleye, right?

NO,i dont think that is right, but it does sell lures.
5 years ago, i didnt know a single person who annealed their cases.
Yet several of my friends have been record holders at Williamsport. The only guy
to have ever to this day won the best agregate award for all matches in a single year 2 times, never annealed his cases.
Which at least in my opinion prooves we just cant buy our way.

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To me, annealing is far more about brass longevity than accuracy.

It can have an effect on accuracy though. If you keep fire counts on brass, keep them sorted as such, and anneal them all at the same time, then neck tension should be more consistent from round to round. And as we all know, consistency is key.

I'm certainly not saying that you can't set records without annealing, but it sure doesn't hurt.

here is a complete article on case prep
more than you need to know

http://www.6mmbr.com/jgcaseprep.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LongRange

Lmao now aint that the truth!!
Ive heard more BS come out of those three groups than most any others.

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Did you forget about politicians?

i did...but we all know when ever their mouths are moving their lying!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LongRange

i did...but we all know when ever their mouths are moving their lying!

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Only the ones who get elected. The others arent able to get elected.