10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Anyone else here with one of the above find that their throat is REALLY short? I finally got my Hornady OAL gauge and comparator to measure the distance to the rifling in my 10FLP. Using a SMK 175g, I measured out a case to a length of 3.230 at the Ogive (including the comparator), and a COAL of 2.798 to the tip. Just for comparison, I took a box of Federal Gold Medal Match 175g SMKs and measured 10 of them to the Ogive, and came up with an average of 3.222. That's only .008 off the rifling!
Just curious if this is common with other Savage 10FP and 10FLPs out there. I'm going to have to be really careful with my reloads COL it looks like.
LC
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Below are several COAL's touching the lands using the Hornady comparator and 30 cal bushing. Model 10FCP 308
Assuming your refering to a 308, something doesn't make since in your statement. You state your FGM COAL is 2.798 which sounds close.
I just measure a Federal 308 175 Sierra Matchking BTHP and have an actual overall length of 2.806 which is only .008 off what you state.
When using the comparator and 30 cal bushing, the measurment to the ogive should definetly be "LESS" than the actual length, not more (3.230 ? ) as I believe your stating. In fact, I am trying my best to figure out where the 3.222 is coming from!
Again, below are measurements of several bullets to the lands using the comparator on "MY" 308.
2.260 COAL Nossler 180 NBT’s
2.253 COAL Sierra 168gr HPBT’s Match
2.254 COAL Sierra 175gr HPBT’s Match
2.225 COAL BERGER VLD 175gr HPBT’s Match
2.214 COAL BERGER VLD 185gr HPBT’s Match
2.223 COAL BERGER VLD 190gr HPBT’s Match
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Quote:
I took a box of Federal Gold Medal Match 175g SMKs and measured 10 of them to the Ogive, and came up with an average of 3.222.
Correct me if I am wrong, but this is impossible!
Quote:
Using a SMK 175g, I measured out a case to a length of 3.230 at the Ogive (including the comparator), and a COAL of 2.798 to the tip.
Please explain how you are getting the above measurement, again the COAL (actual) of 2.798 is correct.
Also, the COAL of a Federal Gold Medal Match 175g SMKs should have no bearing on measuring your barrel to determine distance to your lands!
I have 4 308's, they all measure different but don't vary more than .100 to the lands, 2 are savages, 1 remmy, 1 DPMS
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Haha, sorry to confuse you. That 3.230 number, and any of the 3.*** numbers are including my comparator. I didn't zero my calipers before after I placed the comparator on.
The comparator measures 1.004 on my calipers, so my actual number would be 2.226. That's 3.230 - 1.004 for that total. I didn't think it would matter if I included the comp in my measurements as long as that's the way I ALWAYS measure and record my results. I'm just getting started in the reloading thing, so I'm a bit new to all of this.
LC
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Quote:
so my actual number would be 2.226.
So you don't have a problem that I can see!
As stated above, most of my measurements are around this figure and vary about .100 between guns!
Lets start over . . . .
Using your comparator and 30 cal insert, a Hornady comparator case, 175 gr SMK's or whatever bullet you use, push the bullet to the lands, lock it in, zero your caliper, measure the length and let us know where your at.
Also, I measured several Federal 175gr SMK's BTHP and have an avg of 2.205 to the ogive. When I reload my 308 FCP, as stated above, my measurement to the lands with the same bullet is 2.254, might as well say the factory Fed's are .050 off the lands! In my gun!
I will be happy to share any info with you, but each gun is different!
.050 is not much, sounds like you just need to decide where you want to be when reloading, in the lands, on, or off.
Some bullets shoot better off the lands, some on, and on one of my 308's shooting 155.5 Bergers likes them a little in the lands (.015)
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
My FCP 308 will shoot just about anything!
Below is a pic shooting factory 168 HSM A-max's, it will shoot the same groups with the 175gr HSM A-max's all day long!
One of the highest scores I have ever shot, shooting in 600yd competitions is with this gun and 175 HSM a-max's (Factory Loads) !!!!!
That's also with 23 bulleye's (out of 60 shots)!
I built a 308 strickly for shooting 600 yd competitions and put a lot of money in the gun! This Savage FCP will easily hang with my custom build!
[img width=600 height=449]http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/Dennis4437/DSC02378.jpg[/img]
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
I was being really careful with bullet jump on my custom 16FLHSS and using 0.018 for my standard. Later on I realized that the magazine on my 16FLHSS was not as long as the one on my 10FLP so I started seating deeper for magazine fit. I went from 0.018 bullet jump to 0.040 - and the accuracy improved! I still need to finese my load a little more but here it is.
Bullet: Nosler 175 gr. HPBT
Powder: Hodgdon Varget 43.0 grs.
Primer: Wolf Large Rifle
Case: Lapua
LOAL: 2.853 (2.272 Base to Ogive with Stoney Point)
Average Velocity: 2610 fps
Extreme Spread: 25.38
Standard Deviation: 8.00
Comments: Jam length with Nosler 175 gr. HPBT is 2.312 (about 2.893 LOAL). Bullets seated to give 0.040 bullet jump (for magazine function). Best group at 200 yards 0.556 for five shots! Need to seat a little deeper for magazine function, still too tight in the magazine.
200 Yard group with 0.018 Bullet Jump.
[img width=600 height=398]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/pbcaster45/Typical5shotgroup200yards16FLHSS.jpg[/img]
200 Yard group with 0.040 Bullet Jump - go figure!
[img width=600 height=398]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/pbcaster45/Best5shots200yards16FLHSS.jpg[/img]
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis
My FCP 308 will shoot just about anything!
Below is a pic shooting factory 168 HSM A-max's, it will shoot the same groups with the 175gr HSM A-max's all day long!
One of the highest scores I have ever shot, shooting in 600yd competitions is with this gun and 175 HSM a-max's (Factory Loads) !!!!!
That's also with 23 bulleye's (out of 60 shots)!
I built a 308 strickly for shooting 600 yd competitions and put a lot of money in the gun! This Savage FCP will easily hang with my custom build!
[img width=600 height=449]http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/Dennis4437/DSC02378.jpg[/img]
I thought a group was more than one shot?!? Just kidding. That's pretty amazing. Especially with factory ammo. Mine does pretty good on factory too. I can't wait to get my reloads going.
Here's my best group, and coincidentally the first group I shot with the rifle after barrel break in. I was using Remmington 168 grain BTHP at 100 yards. If it wasn't for that flyer, it'd be impressive.
[img width=299 height=450]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/Loudcherokee/Hunting%20RIfle/100_3718.jpg[/img]
LC
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbcaster45
I was being really careful with bullet jump on my custom 16FLHSS and using 0.018 for my standard. Later on I realized that the magazine on my 16FLHSS was not as long as the one on my 10FLP so I started seating deeper for magazine fit. I went from 0.018 bullet jump to 0.040 - and the accuracy improved! I still need to finese my load a little more but here it is.
Bullet: Nosler 175 gr. HPBT
Powder: Hodgdon Varget 43.0 grs.
Primer: Wolf Large Rifle
Case: Lapua
LOAL: 2.853 (2.272 Base to Ogive with Stoney Point)
Average Velocity: 2610 fps
Extreme Spread: 25.38
Standard Deviation: 8.00
Comments: Jam length with Nosler 175 gr. HPBT is 2.312 (about 2.893 LOAL). Bullets seated to give 0.040 bullet jump (for magazine function). Best group at 200 yards 0.556 for five shots! Need to seat a little deeper for magazine function, still too tight in the magazine.
200 Yard group with 0.018 Bullet Jump.
[img width=600 height=398]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/pbcaster45/Typical5shotgroup200yards16FLHSS.jpg[/img]
200 Yard group with 0.040 Bullet Jump - go figure!
[img width=600 height=398]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/pbcaster45/Best5shots200yards16FLHSS.jpg[/img]
Very nice. It's good to see such a huge difference from seating depth. Makes me feel better about the 40 bucks I spent on this OAL gauge! Hopefully I'll be posting some similar pics if the weather holds up for tomorrow. Supposed to be pretty cold. I finally got around to loading up some rounds. I've been sitting on processed and primed brass for over a month, waiting to buy bullets and powder. Finally found somewhere local that carries Varget, and got my SMKs in from Midway. I loaded 4 rounds each last night of Varget at 42, 42.5, 43, 43.5, 44, 44.5, and 45. All .003 off the lands, to somewhat match the Federal GMM I have, then I'll go at adjusting seating depth from there.
Until then, my best 200 yard group was with factory ammo, and not nearly as impressive as yours. This was also the first day I had my rifle, and I kept messing with my scope before I knew anything about how to adjust a scope.
[img width=299 height=450]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/Loudcherokee/Hunting%20RIfle/100_3719.jpg[/img]
LC
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis
Quote:
so my actual number would be 2.226.
So you don't have a problem that I can see!
As stated above, most of my measurements are around this figure and vary about .100 between guns!
Lets start over . . . .
Using your comparator and 30 cal insert, a Hornady comparator case, 175 gr SMK's or whatever bullet you use, push the bullet to the lands, lock it in, zero your caliper, measure the length and let us know where your at.
Also, I measured several Federal 175gr SMK's BTHP and have an avg of 2.205 to the ogive. When I reload my 308 FCP, as stated above, my measurement to the lands with the same bullet is 2.254, might as well say the factory Fed's are .050 off the lands! In my gun!
I will be happy to share any info with you, but each gun is different!
.050 is not much, sounds like you just need to decide where you want to be when reloading, in the lands, on, or off.
Some bullets shoot better off the lands, some on, and on one of my 308's shooting 155.5 Bergers likes them a little in the lands (.015)
I took your advice, and zero'd my caliper against the comp body. This time I measured several times. 2.223 just barely sticks the bullet in the lands, where i have to poke it out with a brass rod from the muzzle, and VERY light pressure is needed to "unstick" the bullet from the lands.
I measured a pack of 10 Federal GMM and came up with a near average of 2.215. So this stuff is right around .008 off the lands. I then went back and bumped all my reloads that I made the other night back just a fraction after about a 1/4 turn on the seating knob to all read at 2.214 so none of them are IN the lands. I'll play around with that more after I find my best charge weight.
LC
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Quote:
I took your advice, and zero'd my caliper against the comp body. This time I measured several times. 2.223 just barely sticks the bullet in the lands, where i have to poke it out with a brass rod from the muzzle, and VERY light pressure is needed to "unstick" the bullet from the lands.
Quote:
This time I measured several times. 2.223 just barely sticks the bullet in the lands, where i have to poke it out with a brass rod from the muzzle, and VERY light pressure is needed to "unstick" the bullet from the lands.
I measured a pack of 10 Federal GMM and came up with a near average of 2.215. (My measurement was 2.205) So this stuff is right around .008 off the lands.
Well it does sound like your distance to the lands is a little shorter than most, maybe by .008 to .020 using 175 SMK's, or according to yours/my measurements! That's .012 which I guess Factory loads could vary around .010. Again, that's why we reload to get it exactly where we want. I think your gun is capible of doing this with any bullet!
The difference in my FCP using Factory SMK's 175's is .049 . . . . That's my actual factory Federal 175 gr SMK's (current stock) measurement to the ogive (2.205). When reloading 175gr SMK's in my gun it measure 2.254 when slightly touching/pushing into the lands!
BUT THE GOOD POINT! Your very close and it sounds like you can set your bullets where ever you want when reloading. Or have your gunsmith readjust the barrel which I don't think I would do. Again, if I am wrong, someoene please state different.
As you know, you can set the bullet where you want when reloading! If your gun shoots using Factory Federal 175gr BTHP's SMK's, leave it alone! If you want them .030 off the lands, get your seating die out and set to them to the ogive 2.193 usuing your measurement.
You have your base measurement to the ogive using 175gr Smk's! (Which is 2.223) I have always had the best luck shooting them on the lands when relaoding in my FCP. I am going to pull out some 168 HSM Factory ammo and see how they meaure up as you can see, they will shoot out of my gun!
As mentioned in one of my earlier post, each bullet will have their own measurement. Determine the distance to the lands with each bullet, it's a pain but you have no choice especially if your wanting to jam them a little of back off a little. I know some people's guns shoot better .040 OFF the lands! Berger VLD's have always done the best for me on the lands or about .010 in the lands!
Your on the wright track, I always get my powder charge right! Then I play with the seating depth! If I find any more pictures, I will send them your way! This is an awesome gun and again, mine will shoot anything, I even tried some 110 gr Hornady Tap and was shooting <.025 groups! I will also shoot 190 Bergers pretty good. I didn't concentrate on this gun to much as I use it as my hunting gun! But I do know I can pull it out, maybe shoot a foul shot, then hit anything I want at 600yds or less! It's a great gun, let me know which loads yours finally end up liking! Varget, RL15, IMR 4895 seem to be the most favoried powders for this gun!
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
So I got out to the range today with my Savage and my reloads. Took the chrony along too. It was cold, but no wind, which was what I was looking for.
First step was to sight in my new Mueller tactical 8.5-25x44 scope with factory Federal GMM 175g SMKs
[img width=600 height=450]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/Loudcherokee/Hunting%20RIfle/sighting-in.jpg[/img]
Then, I shot a group with the factory ammo. Target A below is factory. My reloads went from book minimum 42grains of varget, in .5 grain increments, up to 45g max load. All loads were .009 off the lands measured to the Ogive. COAL to ogive was 2.214, where my lands were at 2.223. All brass was Remington once fired, full length resized, trimmed, chamfered, deburred, and polished. CCI BR2 primers were used. Bullets were Sierra Match King 175 grains HPBT. NO crimp was put on the cases.
Here are my results.
Target 1-
[img width=352 height=450]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/Loudcherokee/Hunting%20RIfle/Target-1.jpg[/img]
Target 2-
[img width=358 height=450]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/Loudcherokee/Hunting%20RIfle/Target-2.jpg[/img]
I noticed my POI shifted to the right, so I shot another load of factory ammo, and it looks like either my scope shifted a bit, or lost zero. Hopefully it just shifted, as I cranked the scope ring screws down just a little bit more after I re-zeroed. I was also worried about my shooting affecting my reloads group size, so i finished up with the factory ammo to make sure I was still shooting good.
[img width=357 height=450]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/Loudcherokee/Hunting%20RIfle/Target-3.jpg[/img]
So, it looks like 42 grains is definitely my best load, with 44.5 to 45 coming in a close second. The 44.5 - 45 has the velocity where I want it to reach out to a longer distance, so I think I may start tweaking those loads, maybe loading up some loads in .10 grain increments from 44.5 - 45. The 42 grains makes an awesome shorter range load it looks like.
So, suggestions as to what to do now? I was surprised to see how the groups opened up after just changing the weight a few grains. Did I spread apart the increments too far? Should I go back and do 4 loads at smaller increments, ie: 42.3, 42.8, 43.3, 43.8, 44.3, 44.8? I didn't have any pressure signs at book max of 45 grains. I DID have one flattened primer at 43.5 grains, which was odd to me since no other loads exibited any pressure signs. Maybe that one case was a fluke. I'll cull it out of my pile for next time.
I still have about 42 once fired remington brass all sized up and ready to load. I finally got around to getting a neck sizing die, so the second time around I'll just neck size those cases.
LC
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
I am so ready to get out and shoot my .308s - if the weather ever cooperates! Keep us updated!
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Quote:
maybe loading up some loads in .1 grain increments from 44.5 - 45
When I first start developing a load for any gun, I usually go in .4 grns increments! Usually on the lands.
When I get a close group, then I will load by the tenth. If I am shooting VLD's i usually go into the lands, SMK's are different, some of my best smk groups are .015 off the lands.
Below are some of my groups, sounds like your gun is close to mine!
Try some on the lands, and try some .015 off. I have never had any luck with SMK's in the lands! BERGERS, YES!
Note the one I marked "to hot", don't forget to look for pressure signs with every shot!
[img width=600 height=450]http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/Dennis4437/175SMK435VARGETBEST.jpg[/img]
Notice below how .2 grns opened the group up! Above 44.0grns of IMR4064 is on the hot side for my gun!
[img width=600 height=450]http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/Dennis4437/175SMKIMR4064.jpg[/img]
Re: 10FP or 10FLP distance to lands
Below is a picture of my target when I was developing a load for my 6.5x47Lapua, I wish I had some for the 308! I just keep the best ones for that gun.
I am just showing what .2grns will do to your groups!
36.2grns was the load for this gun and bullet! This is what you have to do when dialing one in, your shots will be all over the target, and then . . . . bam, it seems like you can shoot with your eyes closed and cloverleaf a group! I can't tell you how many times I have gone through this process with many different calipers and bullets!
[img width=600 height=450]http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/Dennis4437/123L65x47362VargetCCI450GroupPicsPerfectBEST-1.jpg[/img]
