Tubbs Final Finish or Tubbs TMS ???
I have a problem with severe copper fouling in my 12FV .204 Ruger and finally called Tubbs about the Final Finish system. Based on number of rounds fired, they said I needed to use the TMS instead. Fire 7-10 rounds and then 3 about every 350-400 rounds.
I have less than 2,000 rounds thru the barrel. I can clean the barrel and after 25-30 rounds, all shots keyhole. This happens with reloads and factory. Gun has been sent back to Savage but not help there.
After the last test, with all copper removed, I fired about 30 rounds before it started keyholing. In cleaning the barrel, I was able to quickly remove carbon fouling. I then used BoreTeck Copper and it opened up a copper mine again. Still trying to get the copper out.
I checked their website again and based on what I see, I think I should be using the Final Finsh instead.
Comments?
Lago
Re: Tubbs Final Finish or Tubbs TMS ???
Is there a physic bore Doctor in the house....................
How can any determination be made without the bore being inspected with a bore scope, anything else is just guesswork.
Clean the bore with foam bore cleaner until it no longer turns blue, then scrub the bore with J&B Bore paste or Iosso bore polish. Try changing bullet manufactures and powders, meaning if you are using a single base powder switch to a double base powder.
You can't break in a barrel if the bullet is gliding over its own jacketed copper material and sticking to itself.
Below is a bore scope photo of a button rifled bore like your Savage has, yours could be better or worse and without being bore scoped everything is just guessing.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o.../990900081.jpg
I'm not an expert but I collect and shoot milsurps with frosted and pitted bores and a rough bore will eat the copper right off the bullet and leave it stuck in the bore. I clean these frosted and pitted milsurps with foam bore cleaner and when required with J&B bore cleaner. Bronze or copper brushes just get eaten alive in rough bores and get you nowhere fast and just add more copper to your bore and false copper readings. Use the foam bore cleaners and let them do the work without scrubbing and brushing followed by J&B or Iosso.
As you can see in the above photo until you wear down and smooth the high spots in your barrel it will continue to eat copper. You can do this slowly with a shooting and cleaning regiment or by fire lapping, BUT I would want to know what the bore looks like before I decided to fire lap the bore.
[img width=205 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/firelapping.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=434]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/firelapping2.jpg[/img]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2n7Bm8Xzjw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZ...eature=related
Re: Tubbs Final Finish or Tubbs TMS ???
You say you have less that 2000 rounds through the barrel, so I am guessing you are close in round count to 2000? At 2000 rounds the bearrel should be well broken in. I am not a big believer in abrasive bullets like what Tubb sells, and I would say that in your case would not be something I would do.
My experience with the 204 in the past I have found that this round is one that likes to carbon foul. I found that once the carbon fouled they started to keyhole, and would continue to do so until you got the carbon out. (On of the reasons I quit shooting the 204) Back then (5 or more years ago) the bronze brushes in 20 cal was junk, they lasted about three strokes and they was done. The only 20 Cal brush I have ever found that was worth a dang was the Tipton brushes. I found the best product for heavy carbon fouling is JB bore cleaner. How are you presently removing carbon build up?
I would get a bore solvent that works on carbon, and not a universal or cooper cleaning solvent. I love GM TEC but it is no longer available, you may be able to find Mercury Power tune, at a boat Marina it is the same stuff. I would take something like work it with a brush and then let it sit in the bore overnight, then follow up with a scrubbing of JB, then a couple of patches of bore cleaner, and then patch it all out. Some people have reported good luck with KG-1 carbon remover, I can not say I have tried it. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=470468 Some people claim seafoam is good, I can say I never had good luck with it, It is no GM TEC.
I am willing to bet once you get the copper out it will stop keyholing. I will say one thing 2000 rounds is a high round count on any barrel, you may just want to think about re-barreling it.
Re: Tubbs Final Finish or Tubbs TMS ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
holy smokes! those are some impressive videos, the first especially. :o
Re: Tubbs Final Finish or Tubbs TMS ???
I know opinions differ but when it comes to removing copper without any work involved nothing beats a good foam bore cleaner.
Below is a .303 British Enfield with a frosted and pitted bore that you could scrub for days and not get all the copper out of the bore. In the photo below all the copper was removed by just letting foam bore cleaner sit overnight and do its work. Nothing could be easier with no brushing involved and less chance of cleaning damage to the bore.
[img width=424 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP5065.jpg[/img]
Read the article below on standard cleaning methods, 67 patches used and 75 to 100 passes with a cleaning rod, or make things simple with one or possibly two applications of foam bore cleaner. ;)
http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com...opic.php?t=807
Re: Tubbs Final Finish or Tubbs TMS ???
Your .204 sounds like mine. I had around 2000 rounds thru mine and it would shoot 1/2 groups until around 18 rounds and then would start keyholing. Have a new replacement barrel on the way.
http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/okeymon/7.jpg
Muzzle end
http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/s...mon/muzzle.jpg
More pictures can be seen here. http://home.comcast.net/~okeymon/barrel/barrel.html
Okey
Re: Tubbs Final Finish or Tubbs TMS ???
Prior to the last test, I cleaned the barrel and think I was able to get all copper fouling out. I used the electrolysis method as posted here recently and also use BoreTeck Copper remover and Eliminator. After it was cleaned, I also used JB Bore paste. I then had a local gunsmith take a look with a bore scope and he said he found nothing wrong with it.
This past weekend, I fired about 25 rounds before it started to keyhole. I then cleaned the gun and as far as carbon fouling, very little came out of the barrel. I hit it with BoreTeck Eliminator and came up with a lot of copper fouling. I have started using the Copper remover and try to get it clean again.
I have had the problem with RL10X, W748, X-Terminator, and BLC2. I can try different bullets but don't think that will fix the problem.
The order from Tubbs is enroute so I will probably give it a try. If all else fails, then I guess it will be a new barrel.
