Cleaning barrel

I went to the range today and my 12F was not at it's best, I have not changed anything, reloads are the same and temp was a little cooler wind was 5mph out of the north almost the same as last week. I clean the barrel differant last week, I used CR10 and pushed patches until it was clean. Last thing I pushed patch of oil through the barrel. I shot 3-4 fouling shots and then things would not settle down. at 50 yards things looked great but at 100 yards the group was about 1''1/2 where last week you could put 3 shots in a dime???
I don't know what wrong it is driving me crazy...

Savage factory barrels don't do well when clean.
Put some rounds down that sucker and I bet it will come back alive. I found that they don't start shooting good again until they have at-least 20 rounds down the tube.

Did you patch the oil out before you started shooting this trip?

I have to agree with the need to season the barrel with at least 20 rounds Seems funny that that would be necessary, but it is.

The only other observation was that cleaning the barrel the way you did may have left some guilding metal and carbon in the barrel. If you don't get the barrel totally clean, running patches with CR10 may not have got all the way to bare metal. Barrels do need to be brushed with quality bronze brushes. Some people like bore cleaners that are copper cleaning type, some don't. Either way, it's important to insure that all fouling is out of the barrel. The worst build up place is usually at the first part of the rifling.
If not totally clean, the barrel will not shoot, even after the fouling shots.

It's a very good idea to run dry patches through the barrel before shooting to get any excess oil.
A slight film of oil is needed, but you want to get all the wet oil out.

Also make sure the scope is tight, mounts etc.

Sometimes it's just a bad day. Check these things and I'll bet she's shooting like her old self again.

John K

Yes I know you guys are right. I brushed the barrel for 10 min or more until I thought it was spotless ran patches of kroil until clean. Yes I did have thin film of oil in the barrel before shotting. You are right It seem to shot better as the day went on. What is the best way you guys clean your barrels what is best to use on SS barrels

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Originally Posted by Rifleman51

Barrels do need to be brushed with quality bronze brushes. Some people like bore cleaners that are copper cleaning type, some don't. Either way, it's important to insure that all fouling is out of the barrel. The worst build up place is usually at the first part of the rifling.
If not totally clean, the barrel will not shoot, even after the fouling shots.
A slight film of oil is needed, but you want to get all the wet oil out.
John K

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Thank you, Very well said. I been flamed for making such comments in the past.

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Originally Posted by DIESEL TECH

What is the best way you guys clean your barrels what is best to use on SS barrels

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I only clean before I store them for winter or a long period of time. As long as I am shooting them I don't clean them until accuracy fall off, or it starts keyholling. I clean them all the same way. Two wet patches of either shooters choice, or Motana extream, run a wet bronze brush for 10 strokes, let it sit a few minutes, and then patch out. I only use oil if I am going to store it.

I would check the scope as suggested above. Could you loads have been "off"/not consistent?

Chip

So if your stock Savage likes 20 down the tube to get tuned up how do you keep it ready for hunting season?

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Originally Posted by ofdscooby

So if your stock Savage likes 20 down the tube to get tuned up how do you keep it ready for hunting season?

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Shot 20 rounds at the range, and then dont clean it.

I went and check the scope, mounts, ect and all was fine. 82boy I am going to work on that barrel with that bronze brush so more, I am going to do just like you said and try that. After you clean it you leave it dry. Remember this is a target rifle and I shot 50 to 75 rounds at the time at the range...

I find that a factory Savage barrel wil go about 100 + rounds before needing cleaned.

Don't leave it dry after cleaning. A little oil keeps the barrel from rusting, but more important is that before firing, run a dry patch down the bore to remove the majority of the oil.

The barrel needs a very fine film of oil so that the first bullet does not hit dry rifling, which is very hard on the rifling. This has been proved by many benchrest shooters. Just make sure it's an oil without teflon etc, just a good gun oil, the first shots are fouling shots and will remove the oil and the fouling shots will put down a fine film of brass guilding from the bullet which will protect the rifling..

The test I use to see if the fouling is really out of the barrel is after cleaning, I'll run a wet patch with some Sweets 7.62 or other bore cleaner with amonia in it. Let it sit for about 10 minutes. Then run a dry patch. If the patch comes out with green on it, there is still jacket guilding material left in the barrel, if not clean with a bore solvent without amonia, dry and oil.

If your barrel is cleaned on a regular basis, then the cleaning only requires running a brush down the barrel about 10 times as was suggested, but if not cleaned on a regular basis, the jacket material as well as carbon can build up.

There is only one way to get rid of it and that is to clean the barrel until it's gone.

If it's badly fouled, some JB Bore Brite on a tightly wrapped jag with some kroil can be used to remove the stuborn fouling. The Bore Brite is much finer than regular JB bore cleaner and if used only as necessary, will not hurt your barrel. It's really great stuff for stuborn fouling.

Be sure to protect the muzzle. Nothing ruins accuracy faster than a damaged crown.

I hope this helps. A fouled bore will cause prety bad accuracy. Some benchrest shooters clean their bore with wet patches every 15 rounds. That is excessive for everyday shooting, but 50 to 100 rounds is right depending on how smooth your bore is. Using a bronze brush will not damage the bore in any way. The bronze is so much softer than the bore there is no way that it can. Do not use a staineless steel brush, that will hurt the bore.
Push the brush in one direction only from the breach to the muzzle and remove the brush before pulling the rod back out. Use a bore guide as not to run the rod against the rifling in the lead of the barrel.
I am a retired gunsmith and have talked with a lot of precision benchrest and long distance shooters. This is their advise and also I have inspected bores cleaned this way with bore scopes and have seen no damage from a properly cleaned bore. It's when you let a bore get fouled that you can damage it due to the lengths you have to go to in order to remove the fouling. keeping a bore clean makes it easy to maintain.
John K

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Originally Posted by Rifleman51

The barrel needs a very fine film of oil so that the first bullet does not hit dry rifling, which is very hard on the rifling. This has been proved by many benchrest shooters. Just make sure it's an oil without teflon etc, just a good gun oil, the first shots are fouling shots and will remove the oil and the fouling shots will put down a fine film of brass guilding from the bullet which will protect the rifling..

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I find this to be very interesting, Benchrest shooters all do different things, I can say that I have only see a very small few Br shooters that use oil in their bores, after cleaning without storage. (Getting ready for the next match.) Why not to use Teflon oil? A lot of benchrest shooters (Myself included.) use colloidal graphite between cleanings, we do this to keep the first shots in the group. We still shoot sighters, but only a few. Yes we clean every 7-15 rounds, and I have found in a Benchrest rifle going about 20 shots is getting to the point that accuracy falls off, but we are talking about a different accuracy value. I don't find this to be excessive because we can get 3000 rounds out of a barrel, before it is scrap, most shooter chose to pull barrels sooner just because they want something fresh and the best, not because it is necessarily bad. Getting back to cleaning, I just have a hard time wrapping my brain around a thought that oil is needed for the first round but the rest of the rounds are fine. I would say that excessive use of JB bore cleaning will erode a bore, but myself (And other some BR shooters.) use it to clean after every aggregate, or when the patches get sticky when pushing them in the bore. I have not see where this has damaged a barrel.

Below is a cut away photo of a new button rifled barrel.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o.../990900081.jpg

Now some food for thought and ancient history, the British .303 Enfield had boiling water pored down the barrel after shooting. This was used to remove the corrosive primer residue "AND" all the carbon fouling from the bore. The only time copper bore solvent was used was during quarterly inspection of the bore by the armourer.

Even fairly new milsurp bores are frosted or have very fine pitting that looks like the bore was finely sand blasted. What does this have to do with the subject of cleaning barrels? A button rifled barrel and a used milsurp barrel are "rough" and pick up copper like a magnet. ("special" copper magnet) ;D

I use foam bore cleaner for two reasons, 1. It removes copper better than any other bore cleaner. 2. No cleaning rod or "ANYTHING" touches the bore that could cause wear or damage to the bore.

[img width=424 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP5065.jpg[/img]

I have a brand new Stevens 200 and took it to the range and broke it in by the numbers cleaning with a bore brush after "X" amount of rounds per cleaning regiment. This did "NOT" get the copper out of this rough button rifled bore "but" cleaning with foam bore cleaner did get all the copper out of the bore.

The reason your barrels shoot better after cleaning and shooting "X" amount of fouling shots is simple. The copper jacket material is being stripped from the bullet and used to fill in the low spots and "smooth" the bore.

A bore without "high spots" cleans and shoots better, don't shoot the messenger just think about a hand lapped barrel. ;)

[img width=205 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/firelapping.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 height=434]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/firelapping2.jpg[/img]

On brush strokes, i've read that you should only brush from the chamber to the muzzle, and then unscrew the brush, and repeat, and not to do a back and forth brushing. Does this really matter if i'm using a bronze or nylon brush and using a bore guide at the same time?

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Originally Posted by axio

On brush strokes, i've read that you should only brush from the chamber to the muzzle, and then unscrew the brush, and repeat, and not to do a back and forth brushing. Does this really matter if i'm using a bronze or nylon brush and using a bore guide at the same time?

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This is due to dragging dirt, debris, "carbon" across the crown back "into" and enlarging the bore at the muzzle, even a hand lapped barrel has the end cut off after lapping.

IC. That makes sense. Thanks for explaining this. I hope i didn't ruin my bore...

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Originally Posted by axio

IC. That makes sense. Thanks for explaining this. I hope i didn't ruin my bore...

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You didn't ruin your bore.

You have benchrest fanatical cleaning methods.
You have "normal" hunting rifle cleaning methods.
And you have "brutal" military rifle cleaning methods.

And remember this, your hunting and might have a little oil residue in the bore. You carry the rifle all day getting dirt and dust inside the bore. An eight point buck jumps up in front of you and bring your rifle up and pull the trigger. The bullet on the way to the buck passes over the dirt and dust in the bore and sand blasts that section of the bore, the bullet hit the deer and it drops like a ton of bricks.

Your happy you got the buck and you forget about the small amount of bore wear near the muzzle, and do even more damage cleaning the rifle back at the hunting camp. (Foam bore cleaner doesn't rub anything)

Yes I guess I fall in the bracket of benchrest fanatical cleaning. I was talking to my son and pulled the brush back down the muzzle toward the bolt, Dumb thing to do I hope this did not hurt my accuracy. This gun would shot 1/4'' group at 100 all day long until Sunday at the range?? I shot score at the club I am in and this gun was the GUN the beat that way it is driving crazy. This gun only has 375 rounds through the barrel. This is a 12F T/R with a 30'' barrel and it has been a hole in a hole rifle. I have it tore down and checking everything if it is something I am missing please help...

One major reason for not running the brush from muzzle to chamber is that you will cause fouling to be thrown from the brush to the action, making the action dirty in the process. If you always go from chamber to muzzle, all this will be taken away from the action.

As said earlier, make sure you protect the crown. If I get erratic results from a rifle that has been shooting well I won't hesitate to have a new crown cut if I know that everything else is good. I see a lot of hunters that will put their rifle in the truck with the muzzle resting on the floor board carpet since this is a "safe" way to transport it for short distances on a hunting lease. I never do this as I am concerned about muzzle damage.

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Originally Posted by axio

On brush strokes, i've read that you should only brush from the chamber to the muzzle, and then unscrew the brush, and repeat, and not to do a back and forth brushing. Does this really matter if i'm using a bronze or nylon brush and using a bore guide at the same time?

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Only if you got a ton of time to waste. I have watched many different benchrest shooters and I can not recall ever seeing anyone unscrew a brush from their rod. these guys pull the brush back over the crown, and it must not hurt because they are still shooting screamer groups.

Thanks guys this was a good read, 82boy I am going to take heed to this... Call me crazy but I have unscrewed the brush before I pull it back in the barrel lol lol..

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Originally Posted by 82boy

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Originally Posted by axio

On brush strokes, i've read that you should only brush from the chamber to the muzzle, and then unscrew the brush, and repeat, and not to do a back and forth brushing. Does this really matter if i'm using a bronze or nylon brush and using a bore guide at the same time?

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Only if you got a ton of time to waste. I have watched many different benchrest shooters and I can not recall ever seeing anyone unscrew a brush from their rod. these guys pull the brush back over the crown, and it must not hurt because they are still shooting screamer groups.

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I do this but I have the purty 2" muzzle-brake with no crown in it... Which also makes it hard to look at or check my crown...

are the hard stainless cleaning rods out of style now ?? I have one and I've used it a lot... People only use a coated rod ?