Savage .223 1:7 rifling problems

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08-04-2021, 08:32 AM
Frankthetank1point0

Savage 12VLP .223 1:7 rifling problems

Update: called savage again the lady was again surprised by the rifling and helped narrow down the model of gun it came off from which is 12VLP sku#18464

Hello I bought a barrel off of ebay recently as it was a package deal with a stock I needed. Barrel is a factory savage SS 26" fluted small shank. Upon cleaning the barrel I realized it was a 1:7 twist much to my delight. Once I broke out my bore scope I realized the rifling was not normal because it has about a 2-2.5" long section at the beginning that is straight not twisting. I called savage before I posted the videos (see youtube links below) and the man could not give me an answer as to why it would be this way. Have any of you ran into this before?

https://youtube.com/shorts/5FghgiLLO3k?feature=share

https://youtube.com/shorts/c0no536exkE?feature=share
08-04-2021, 10:11 AM
celltech

That is fascinating...you may have the only factory gain twist Savage barrel in existence :p

I wonder if they will replace it for you...have you tried to shoot it?
08-04-2021, 10:28 AM
Frankthetank1point0

Quote:

Originally Posted by celltech

That is fascinating...you may have the only factory gain twist Savage barrel in existence :p

I wonder if they will replace it for you...have you tried to shoot it?

I don't think it's a gain twist but maybe it is. I told the I spoke with at savage I'm not looking for a replacement or warranty as he seemed concerned with that and assured him I'm only looking for the how and why this barrel is the way that it is. I have not shot the barrel as I don't have an easy drop in action for it. Maybe I will borrow a 12fv 204 I sold to a buddy to swap the barrel and test it out.
08-04-2021, 06:37 PM
charlie b

I would vote mfg defect. Button rifled and the machine 'skipped' for a bit before it started rotating.
08-04-2021, 07:20 PM
Frankthetank1point0

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie b

I would vote mfg defect. Button rifled and the machine 'skipped' for a bit before it started rotating.

I just got some videos posted the rifling looks too uniform to be a defect. https://youtu.be/qRZpU49UquY https://youtu.be/v_zQ447N9qk
08-04-2021, 09:04 PM
Dave Hoback

Strange indeed. Somehow the button for the rifling remained static for that first stretch. Curious to hear the shooting results.
08-05-2021, 07:11 AM
Frankthetank1point0

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Strange indeed. Somehow the button for the rifling remained static for that first stretch. Curious to hear the shooting results.

I hope to find a 12fv on sale again for a donor gun. If not I will buy the proper bolt head and and swap it onto my 243 and 450bm action
08-05-2021, 07:39 AM
charlie b

The button used for this process 'cuts' all the rifling with one pass. A gear is set up to rotate the button at the proper twist rate. Yours looks like the gear did not engage for the first several inches.
08-05-2021, 08:11 AM
Frankthetank1point0

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie b

The button used for this process 'cuts' all the rifling with one pass. A gear is set up to rotate the button at the proper twist rate. Yours looks like the gear did not engage for the first several inches.

Best of my knowledge the buttons have the helical angle formed into them to rotate, the machine granted I have not seen one does not spin the button. Buttons do not "cut" the rifling they are a form of cold forming (push the metal into the shape). Maybe savage uses a short button so the helical angle is not part of it and it does need a machine to twist it at the proper rate?
08-05-2021, 10:16 PM
Dave Hoback

Yes, this is primarily what I’ve seen as well. But it’s impossible for a helical grooved button to make straight rifling! It’s not physically possible! So I’m at a loss on this one. Apparently though, the Savage Tech was as well...so go figure. I am quite curious on the outcome here though.

BTW Frank, Charlie is aware that button rifling is not cutting the rifling in. I’ve read it many times like that, people will simply say “cut” with “” or ‘’ to denote it’s not ACTUALLY cut. I’m guilty of doing the same thing here at times. I get in one of our chats here, and assume everyone is on the level. Have to remind myself that we have new shooters coming in all the time. Always best in this type of situation, to explain the procedure as it is. The way you explained it is precisely what the button is doing. So thank you.

On a side note with that, something which is overlooked....both Button & Cold Hammer Forged Rifling are, in essence, actually creating the rifling EXACTLY the same way. The rifling is being PRESSED(Forged) into the the steel. Funny how that little tidbit is overlooked by the crowd touting the MISTAKEN “benefits” of a CHF barrel. Sorry....total tangent & not for nothing, but oh well.
08-06-2021, 08:28 AM
Frankthetank1point0

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Yes, this is primarily what I’ve seen as well. But it’s impossible for a helical grooved button to make straight rifling! It’s not physically possible! So I’m at a loss on this one. Apparently though, the Savage Tech was as well...so go figure. I am quite curious on the outcome here though.

BTW Frank, Charlie is aware that button rifling is not cutting the rifling in. I’ve read it many times like that, people will simply say “cut” with “” or ‘’ to denote it’s not ACTUALLY cut. I’m guilty of doing the same thing here at times. I get in one of our chats here, and assume everyone is on the level. Have to remind myself that we have new shooters coming in all the time. Always best in this type of situation, to explain the procedure as it is. The way you explained it is precisely what the button is doing. So thank you.

On a side note with that, something which is overlooked....both Button & Cold Hammer Forged Rifling are, in essence, actually creating the rifling EXACTLY the same way. The rifling is being PRESSED(Forged) into the the steel. Funny how that little tidbit is overlooked by the crowd touting the MISTAKEN “benefits” of a CHF barrel. Sorry....total tangent & not for nothing, but oh well.

I don't know all that much about CHF so this is just my opinion. I think compressing the steel is better than expanding it strength wise on a moulular level. I don't how to put the physics into words but here at work when we need to make a strong drive shift for a 6000 ton stamping press we use forgings.
08-06-2021, 10:11 AM
Dave Hoback

Yeah...people are too hung up on the word “Forging”. It’s been spun into some mythological being. Forging is a process of shaping via pressure. Steel Stampings are in fact a type of forging.

If you research, you’ll find Button rifling & CHF are doing the same thing. The button isn’t “expanding” the steel. It’s still COMPRESSING the steel. Think about it... you don’t SEE the rifling on the outside of the barrel, right?
08-06-2021, 12:29 PM
JeepsAndGuns

Very interesting and I have also never seen that.
My only concern is, why was the barrel removed and put on ebay? Makes me wonder if it was replaced because of poor accuracy.
The only thing I can think is not very good things when the bullet is going straight and picking up speed before suddenly slamming into the part of the rifling where it starts to turn. As opposed to a normal barrel where they start to spin as soon as it starts touching the rifling.
I am a little worried about possible damage to the jacket when it suddenly starts to spin.
Or I might be wrong and it shoot great. I am very interested in the results.
08-06-2021, 01:42 PM
J.Baker

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns

The only thing I can think is not very good things when the bullet is going straight and picking up speed before suddenly slamming into the part of the rifling where it starts to turn. As opposed to a normal barrel where they start to spin as soon as it starts touching the rifling.
I am a little worried about possible damage to the jacket when it suddenly starts to spin.
Or I might be wrong and it shoot great. I am very interested in the results.

Agreed! I also have a feeling this will cause a major pressure spike as the bullet hits the transition point in the rifling due to the lands having already conformed/compressed the bullet with straight grooves. Soon as it hits the twisted part it's going to see a significant increase in resistance as it tries to reform that already conformed bullet. Would definitely recommend starting with very light loads and even going as far as to fire a few rounds remotely just in case.
08-06-2021, 02:32 PM
Dave Hoback

Absolutely! I don’t see how it WOULDN’T create a huge pressure?? And good point out there Jim. Didn’t even think about the rifling on the bullet. Even though the transition is even & lined up in the bore, it will impart COMPLETELY different grooving in the jacket of the bullet. This is getting really interesting.
08-06-2021, 11:42 PM
J.Baker

The more I think about this, the more I'd be inclined to seriously recommend NOT trying to shoot it. Just too much risk involved here to be worth taking. Best case scenario it just bulges the barrel at the transition point, or it could cause a total failure resulting in chunks of shrapnel from the barrel and/or receiver to go flying meaning not only would you be out the barrel, but possible your action, optic and stock as well. Worst case scenario it causes personal injury.

In short, I'd look at this barrel as nothing more than a tomato stake at this point. I'm sure the Fleabay seller won't likely willingly issue a refund, but you might be able to get your money back with a PayPal dispute. I would also get back in touch with Savage and see if they would be interested in the barrel just to inspect it to try and figure out what happened and hopefully help keep such a barrel from getting out of the factory again. I wouldn't expect a replacement from them though as they can't send you just a barrel as it wouldn't be proof tested and that would be a liability.
08-07-2021, 07:18 AM
Frankthetank1point0

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Yeah...people are too hung up on the word “Forging”. It’s been spun into some mythological being. Forging is a process of shaping via pressure. Steel Stampings are in fact a type of forging.

If you research, you’ll find Button rifling & CHF are doing the same thing. The button isn’t “expanding” the steel. It’s still COMPRESSING the steel. Think about it... you don’t SEE the rifling on the outside of the barrel, right?

I see your point but in my mind sandwitching metal is better. Now if you supported the barrel OD tightly as you pull/push the button through I think they would be equal. I have to hard evidence to back up my claims however.
08-07-2021, 05:48 PM
Robinhood

Button rifling is a swedging process. Basicaly a forging process. It is done before the rifle is turned as a blank or profiled I cant say how much it is very possible that there may be some growth at the O.D. even if it is very minor. MVHO
08-07-2021, 08:09 PM
sharpshooter

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns

Very interesting and I have also never seen that.
My only concern is, why was the barrel removed and put on ebay? Makes me wonder if it was replaced because of poor accuracy.
The only thing I can think is not very good things when the bullet is going straight and picking up speed before suddenly slamming into the part of the rifling where it starts to turn. As opposed to a normal barrel where they start to spin as soon as it starts touching the rifling.
I am a little worried about possible damage to the jacket when it suddenly starts to spin.
Or I might be wrong and it shoot great. I am very interested in the results.

I think you are all wrong. This is nothing more than the same effect of freebore. Doesn't make much difference, the barrel is junk.
FYI... I've seen Savage button rifle barrels with my own eyes, the button turns.
08-08-2021, 01:48 PM
Frankthetank1point0

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharpshooter

I think you are all wrong. This is nothing more than the same effect of freebore. Doesn't make much difference, the barrel is junk.
FYI... I've seen Savage button rifle barrels with my own eyes, the button turns.

So what do you think caused the straight section of rifling?
08-08-2021, 06:01 PM
Texas10

I'd be willing to bet that this particular barrel came from a vendor Savage was giving a try, but ultimately declined to do business with on a continuing basis. Perhaps it was during a spike in demand a few years back that caused them to consider a second or third vendor. If that's the case, it's doubtful they would be willing to share that information.

I think the choices are limited to set it back 2 inches or turn it into a tomato stake.
08-08-2021, 07:43 PM
Dave Hoback

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas10

I'd be willing to bet that this particular barrel came from a vendor Savage was giving a try, but ultimately declined to do business with on a continuing basis. Perhaps it was during a spike in demand a few years back that caused them to consider a second or third vendor. If that's the case, it's doubtful they would be willing to share that information.

I think the choices are limited to set it back 2 inches or turn it into a tomato stake.

Savage makes their own barrels. They do drilling, reaming, Button Rifling on Barstock blanks, then machine profile. They even have their own Kilns for heat treating, stress relieving.
08-11-2021, 03:27 PM
Frankthetank1point0

Here is the response I got from savage I posted my question to them as well.

MJ (Savage Arms, Inc)

Aug 11, 2021, 1:58 PM EDT

With the barrel being purchased second hand, we cannot provide service to it. We also wouldn't know why the barrel looks the way it does and would not be able to replace the barrel as it was not the factory provided barrel for the firearm. I would suggest containing the seller and see if they had any issues with the barrel or if they have any performance data with the barrel.
Technical Services

C Franklin50

Aug 5, 2021, 12:44 PM EDT

I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A WARRANTY CLAIM. Okay now that's out of the way. I have called twice now trying to get answers for a rifling defect for a second hand barrel that came from a model 12VLP sku#18464 serial#unknown. I have two videos posted documentting the defect. Could you please watch them and let me know what could have caused this and is it worth even trying to shoot or would it be a waste of hard to find components.
https://youtu.be/qRZpU49UquY
https://youtu.be/v_zQ447N9qk