Savage 11 VT 308, short throat?

What are some of you hand loaders getting for Over All Case Length on your Savage 308's? I just got this 11 VT and it seems that the bullets contact the lands well shorter than a standard SAAMI length. It shoots well, and im not having any issues, but It concerns me a little how short my ammo seems to want to be. I dont want to make the rounds too long and run into pressure issues. This is with the Hornady 150 SST, and 168 A-Max. Im not a "prefessional reloader" by any means, but have been hand loading for years. Im must started to get deeper into loading. I have always used the "max length" out of my books. Had I not started learning more about loading lately, I would have just loaded them to 2.800 and went with it with no questions. But at that length, you can see marks on the bullet where it touches the lands.

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Originally Posted by gjbacorn

What are some of you hand loaders getting for Over All Case Length on your Savage 308's? I just got this 11 VT and it seems that the bullets contact the lands well shorter than a standard SAAMI length. It shoots well, and im not having any issues, but It concerns me a little how short my ammo seems to want to be. I dont want to make the rounds too long and run into pressure issues. This is with the Hornady 150 SST, and 168 A-Max. Im not a "prefessional reloader" by any means, but have been hand loading for years. Im must started to get deeper into loading. I have always used the "max length" out of my books. Had I not started learning more about loading lately, I would have just loaded them to 2.800 and went with it with no questions. But at that length, you can see marks on the bullet where it touches the lands.

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I am not real experienced with metallic cartridge loading, but my one experience may pertain. it is possible that bullet shape difference affects this. ran into this my first attempt reloading on a . 300 wsm. chose to use barnes solids instead of duplicating factory winchester loads. loaded them to the same oal and was fortunate to find at the range that they would not chamber. from talking to a friend, depending on if they are secant or tangent ogive bullets they will contact at different points thus requiring different seatimg depths and cartridge lengths (in my case both factory and reloads were well shorter than max oal cartridge length, which is just the max length that the magazine and action can cycle and not really pertainant to what happens in the chamber)

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Per above, there is no SAMMI length COAL, SAMMI just deal in chambers size.

After that when the bullets contact the lands is related to do with the reamer type and the ramp approach to the lands.

Most slope, some do have a square shoulder.

The closest you are going to get is the specific bullet mfg recommendation. That will be a safe distance off though.

Each mfg has a different front shape to the bullet (Ogive)

Best is trial and error and find out as you have where you get bullet markings.

Too far it is actually sticking a bit, just marking and you are close.

A lot of the bench shooters actually have them touch.

That's ok if you approach it slowly and have a good handle on it.

I drop them back .005 at a time until no contact. That tends to be accurate if it going to be though some may wind up a ways off.

That said, what the bullet part that concerns you is the Ogive, and that is slightly different from the same bullet to the next.

You may have most of yours fine and one touch.

You can back off a bit more.

As long as you are down below the maxim powder loads you are not going to be causing a problem, but you do need to be careful and close eye on pressure signs. Sticky bolt is good one, case not sliding into the shell holder another, primers yes but not always good indicators.

When searing its best to get a Hornady comparer , it has an adaptor that goes on a micrometer and then several caliber specific inserts.

You pick the right caliber one and it measure on the Ogive, not the end of the bullet nose.

Bullet nose is far ore variation than the Ogive.

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Originally Posted by RC20

Per above, there is no SAMMI length COAL, SAMMI just deal in chambers size.

After that when the bullets contact the lands is related to do with the reamer type and the ramp approach to the lands.

Most slope, some do have a square shoulder.

The closest you are going to get is the specific bullet mfg recommendation. That will be a safe distance off though.

Each mfg has a different front shape to the bullet (Ogive)

Best is trial and error and find out as you have where you get bullet markings.

Too far it is actually sticking a bit, just marking and you are close.

A lot of the bench shooters actually have them touch.

That's ok if you approach it slowly and have a good handle on it.

I drop them back .005 at a time until no contact. That tends to be accurate if it going to be though some may wind up a ways off.

That said, what the bullet part that concerns you is the Ogive, and that is slightly different from the same bullet to the next.

You may have most of yours fine and one touch.

You can back off a bit more.

As long as you are down below the maxim powder loads you are not going to be causing a problem, but you do need to be careful and close eye on pressure signs. Sticky bolt is good one, case not sliding into the shell holder another, primers yes but not always good indicators.

When searing its best to get a Hornady comparer , it has an adaptor that goes on a micrometer and then several caliber specific inserts.

You pick the right caliber one and it measure on the Ogive, not the end of the bullet nose.

Bullet nose is far ore variation than the Ogive.

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Thanks all for the info! I have a Hornady Overall Length Guage coming, and the 308 modified case is already in. Im thinking the bullet comparator is next in line to be bought. I was also concerned with getting the bullets seated down below the neck and into the shoulder area. Is there any issues that can arise from that? The rifle is shooting excellent groups (for my skill anyhow), right now. Im using 44.4g of IMR-4064, so im under max load. Curious if anyone has a factory round laying around that they can tell me overall length? I havent bought a factory round for a rifle in 15 years.

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Curious if anyone has a factory round laying around that they can tell me overall length?

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I'm getting 2.801, 2.800, 2.798 from 3 different Federal Gold Match 168 HPBT. Disclaimer, using my Harbor Freight mechanical dial caliper...

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Originally Posted by gjbacorn

Thanks all for the info! I have a Hornady Overall Length Guage coming, and the 308 modified case is already in. Im thinking the bullet comparator is next in line to be bought. I was also concerned with getting the bullets seated down below the neck and into the shoulder area. Is there any issues that can arise from that? The rifle is shooting excellent groups (for my skill anyhow), right now. Im using 44.4g of IMR-4064, so im under max load. Curious if anyone has a factory round laying around that they can tell me overall length? I havent bought a factory round for a rifle in 15 years.

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Factory you would have to know the mfg of the bullet.

Last I remember I shot some 308 Federal Match, it was about .015 off the lands.

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Originally Posted by gjbacorn

What are some of you hand loaders getting for Over All Case Length on your Savage 308's? I just got this 11 VT and it seems that the bullets contact the lands well shorter than a standard SAAMI length. It shoots well, and im not having any issues, but It concerns me a little how short my ammo seems to want to be. I dont want to make the rounds too long and run into pressure issues. This is with the Hornady 150 SST, and 168 A-Max. Im not a "prefessional reloader" by any means, but have been hand loading for years. Im must started to get deeper into loading. I have always used the "max length" out of my books. Had I not started learning more about loading lately, I would have just loaded them to 2.800 and went with it with no questions. But at that length, you can see marks on the bullet where it touches the lands.

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Well hello. I just joined the site, partly because I just discovered the very same situation you are describing. I have had the 11VT since election day and have been shooting it with 168 Sierra Match Kings for the most part. I had noticed my starting load of Varget seemed too hot, it had some primer extrusion and leakage, very slight though. No extraction problems. But why would it do this? It has been shooting pretty good groups too, including some half-inchers. Finally I picked up on it today as I was loading Hornady A-Maxes for the first time. I really should have checked on my own for Overall Seating depth but I was using the OAL given in the books, 2.800. Turns out I have been what I have heard called "Jamming" (from another thread on this site) the bullets down to the rifling every time I close the bolt. The bolt never felt hard to close at all. Turns out, I had to seat the SMK's all the way down to 2.720 and the A-Maxes to 2.725 to get .005 off the rifling. That is seated pretty **** deep, as far as I'm concerned, so I only loaded 30 rounds of starting loads (all over again) in 3031, 4895, and Varget. The Varget load is compressed at the start load of 42 grains! the books have the max as 46. Tomorrow We'll see if the pressures are still too high. Hope I don't have to pull all these.
I have reloaded many times for .308's before and never encountered this, the 11VT must have a short throat to do this. I guess this is never going to be a long range rifle as I really don't see getting any kind of hotter load in the cases with such deep seated bullets. Am I wrong? Any thoughts? I'll post the test results tomorrow.

Stick with faster powders that take up less case volume. As time goes on, the throat will get longer.

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Originally Posted by patchnball

Well hello. I just joined the site, partly because I just discovered the very same situation you are describing. I have had the 11VT since election day and have been shooting it with 168 Sierra Match Kings for the most part. I had noticed my starting load of Varget seemed too hot, it had some primer extrusion and leakage, very slight though. No extraction problems. But why would it do this? It has been shooting pretty good groups too, including some half-inchers. Finally I picked up on it today as I was loading Hornady A-Maxes for the first time. I really should have checked on my own for Overall Seating depth but I was using the OAL given in the books, 2.800. Turns out I have been what I have heard called "Jamming" (from another thread on this site) the bullets down to the rifling every time I close the bolt. The bolt never felt hard to close at all. Turns out, I had to seat the SMK's all the way down to 2.720 and the A-Maxes to 2.725 to get .005 off the rifling. That is seated pretty **** deep, as far as I'm concerned, so I only loaded 30 rounds of starting loads (all over again) in 3031, 4895, and Varget. The Varget load is compressed at the start load of 42 grains! the books have the max as 46. Tomorrow We'll see if the pressures are still too high. Hope I don't have to pull all these.
I have reloaded many times for .308's before and never encountered this, the 11VT must have a short throat to do this. I guess this is never going to be a long range rifle as I really don't see getting any kind of hotter load in the cases with such deep seated bullets. Am I wrong? Any thoughts? I'll post the test results tomorrow.

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I have results very close to yours. I got the Hornady over all case length tool the other day. I get a COAL measurement of 2.740 with the A-Max 168 grain. I'm seating them to 2.735. I'm using 44.4 grains of IMR-4064. Gonna back the load down and see how it does, as it seems to be compressed. I'm not having any primer bulging, or any other pressure signs, but just don't like the idea. Just seems odd they have such a short length, but glad I'm not alone! Lol

"As time goes on, the throat will get longer."
And sometimes faster than you could think!!
Consider yourself VERY LUCKY. On most Savage chamber throats, you couldn't reach the lands and leave enough bullet contact in the neck to keep the bullet in place.
Start off with lighter bullets and go heavier as the throat wears, and it will. Learn to live/work with the shorter throat and you'll understand why folks order barrels with short throat chambers. Nothing worse than finding a load that works and the bullet of your choice couldn't reach the lands on a bet.

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Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie

"As time goes on, the throat will get longer."
And sometimes faster than you could think!!
Consider yourself VERY LUCKY. On most Savage chamber throats, you couldn't reach the lands and leave enough bullet contact in the neck to keep the bullet in place.
Start off with lighter bullets and go heavier as the throat wears, and it will. Learn to live/work with the shorter throat and you'll understand why folks order barrels with short throat chambers. Nothing worse than finding a load that works and the bullet of your choice couldn't reach the lands on a bet.

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Excellent advice.

My factory Savage 10 fcp-k chamber had little freebore (already shot out that barrel), but most stuff was around 2.790"-2.830" kissing the lands.

When the chamber had less than 40 rounds through it I chambered some factory FGMM 175gr smk and it was getting jammed in the rifling. Out of 20 rounds of the FGMM 175gr, 2 had heavier bolt lift after firing and the necks on those were split.

Didn't try the stuff again till the barrel had closer to 1,000 round through it, and when I tried the same FGMM 175gr (from different lot) it was not jamming or having any other pressure issues.

Give it time and it will loosen. I think the chamber's leade was a little tight as well along with the shorter freebore. But the rifle always shot so **** good I was sad once the barrel was toast.

The reason I mentioned "living/working" with the short throat is because I've been there, done that. Had an "off the shelf" 6 BR barrel from Shiilen. This was a few years back before the 6 BR got it's real good following. Found a good load and bullet it liked. Shot BUG HOLES and I was hooked, real bad!! Didn't take long before I couldn't reach the lands with that bullet. Something in the 50/55 range. I start light and go heavier as the throat wears. Found somebody that liked shooting heavier bullets so that Shilen went "down the road" and HE was a happy camper. Work with what you've got or plan ahead and get one chambered to YOUR specs from the start. Every thing I have starts off jammed into the lands. (except my gas guns) Start light and go heave as needed. Works for me but YMMV.

Well gjbacorn i'm back from the range. With all starting loads of IMR3031, IMR4895 and Varget and the above mentioned seating depths, I got from 5/8" to 1 1/8" inch 5-shot groups with no overpressure signs. The best was 42 Varget, which was felt hottest (by felt recoil only) and shot the 5/8" with Hornady A-Max. So in the course of 2 days I learned a bit of reloading info which I had never heard before, and I have been doing this since the late 80's. Ya learns something new every day.
So I guess I will be loading light. I also tried 155noslers HPBT, these went into 1 1/4" so will be tried again. I seriously doubt I will ever wear out a barrel but will keep an eye on the throat erosion.
OP for your information my OAL on the A-Max was 7.250 and on the SMK 7.200. Short throat indeed.

I'm happy to hear that it's not a problem that it has a short throat, and may even be a good thing in the long run!