Bullet seating die issue

Greetings. Fairly new to reloading. Couple of months into it.

When I am seating bullets (Sierra 168 TMK into Winchester brass), using a Lee Breech Lock Challenger press and Lee die, I cannot get the die to hold the seating depth constant for two cartridges in a row. Invariably, the next bullet will be .003 to .005 shorter than the previous. I measure every cartridge with a Wixey digital caliper. So I adjust the die back out and have to sneak up on the correct COAL. This takes at least three iterations of adjust/measure/re-seat for every cartridge. This takes much longer than I would expect. Or is this normal? I would have expected that once you have your die set up with the first cartridge, it would not change and you could punch out a bunch of cartridges without having to measure every one.

Thanks for your input

First thing id check is your brass....take a piece of fired brass and by hand slide a bullet into the case...it should slide right in if not you have doughnuts in your necks.

It all has to do with the ojive of the bullet and where the seating die is making contact. I would wager that the die is not contacting the ojive and as such cannot get a consistent seating depth. I will also bet the place the die is touching measures different to the tip on each bullet. Either that or the seating plug is not recessed deep enough and you are seating by pressing on the tip in which case I would go to a 33 caliber seating plug to clear the plastic tip. I went to a 6.5 plug for my 223 and it works like a charm. No damaged tips and consistent seating depth.

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Originally Posted by LongRange

First thing id check is your brass....take a piece of fired brass and by hand slide a bullet into the case...it should slide right in if not you have doughnuts in your necks.

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Not necessarily so if you have a factory chamber where chamber neck diameters are typically larger than Min. Spec. custom reamed chambers. Are you measuring from bullet tip to base? Are you using a liquid brass cleaning process? Is the bearing surface of your bullet .030" or more above the neck/shoulder junction? How many times has the brass been fired W/O re-annealing? What diameter is your neck sized brass compared to bullet seated diameter? Does bullet seating handle pressure meet more resistance near the end of the handle stroke? All the above can have influence on bullet seating length consistency. Give us the info and we can help :)

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Originally Posted by gotcha

Not necessarily so if you have a factory chamber where chamber neck diameters are typically larger than Min. Spec. custom reamed chambers. Are you measuring from bullet tip to base? Are you using a liquid brass cleaning process? Is the bearing surface of your bullet .030" or more above the neck/shoulder junction? How many times has the brass been fired W/O re-annealing? What diameter is your neck sized brass compared to bullet seated diameter? Does bullet seating handle pressure meet more resistance near the end of the handle stroke? All the above can have influence on bullet seating length consistency. Give us the info and we can help :)

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im pretty sure he is not running a tight neck chamber as hes new to reloading so yes a bullet will slide right into a fired neck.
why would liquid clean have any influence on seat depth variations?
Not annealing brass will cause MORE spring back which results in LESS neck tension assuming hes not over sizing the neck to start with.
If the handle has MORE presure/resistance at the end of the stroke 99% of the time its caused by doughnuts.
Also is the OP chamfering the inside necks before reloading?

I try to start by eliminating simple things when answering questions like the OP posted

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Originally Posted by LongRange

im pretty sure he is not running a tight neck chamber as hes new to reloading
I try to start by eliminating simple things when answering questions like the OP posted

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So you are going to start with a doughnut? You admit he is new to reloading so odds are the brass has not been loaded enough to form a doughnut but that is the first thing you think of?
Where is the simple of that? Not saying a doughnut can't be there but I sure wouldn't want to stake my paycheck on those odds. Besides when the button comes back out the doughnut goes to the outside. Doughnuts are most common with bushing dies with no sizing button.
If he is using a standard Lee die and not a collet die then not annealing will cause excess neck tension due to the brass squeezed down then opened up with the button where it tries to spring closed again. The liquid clean, provided they are all cleaned the same, should have a negligible effect on seating depth.

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Originally Posted by earl39

So you are going to start with a doughnut? You admit he is new to reloading so odds are the brass has not been loaded enough to form a doughnut but that is the first thing you think of?
Where is the simple of that? Not saying a doughnut can't be there but I sure wouldn't want to stake my paycheck on those odds. Besides when the button comes back out the doughnut goes to the outside. Doughnuts are most common with bushing dies with no sizing button.
If he is using a standard Lee die and not a collet die then not annealing will cause excess neck tension due to the brass squeezed down then opened up with the button where it tries to spring closed again. The liquid clean, provided they are all cleaned the same, should have a negligible effect on seating depth.

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earl your a smart guy and know your stuff so no disrespect meant....but yes i would start by asking if he has doughnut just like i did...very simple to check just slide a bullet into a case and if it stops at the neck shoulder/junction you most likely have a doughnut...pretty simple....ive had them form with the first firing and just get worse...even using a FL die...which does not push the doughnut back to the outside 100%....if no doughnuts then start looking at other things as you suggested.

you are 100% correct about a bushing die without an expander ball causing them...the reason i dont care for bushing dies or use them any more...you are also right about the annealing/neck tension...i was thinking backwards last night so i apologize to gotcha as he was/is correct in his post.

If you have a measuring tool to check the ogive of your bullets you would notice that there can be a .003" to .005" difference between bullets from the same lot number. Some precision shooters measure and sort their bullets by weight and ogive measurements.

So you could sort bullets by ogive, seat and then measure seating depth of finished cartridge by ogive rather than COAL giving you a much more precise finished cartridge.

Lotsa' good guys here with hearts in the right place. All have made good points. Now, if Dave would respond it wouldn't make me feel it was all in vain :) How 'bout it Dave?

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Originally Posted by earl39

It all has to do with the ojive of the bullet and where the seating die is making contact. I would wager that the die is not contacting the ojive and as such cannot get a consistent seating depth. I will also bet the place the die is touching measures different to the tip on each bullet. Either that or the seating plug is not recessed deep enough and you are seating by pressing on the tip in which case I would go to a 33 caliber seating plug to clear the plastic tip. I went to a 6.5 plug for my 223 and it works like a charm. No damaged tips and consistent seating depth.

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spot on earl
seating plugs on dies aren't all equal. nor are the projectiles.Ive done the same thing as far as using different seating plugs to get my mic readings to be were they need to be.
some pills like rcbs,some like lee some like lyman, some like redding...the list goes on and on.

Odd. I have a Lee seating die for my 243, and its stem is relieved at the tip of the bullet so even Berger VLD 115 points don't touch.

When you're measuring the COAL, Dave, are you measuring to the tip or to the ogive?

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Originally Posted by DrThunder88

Odd. I have a Lee seating die for my 243, and its stem is relieved at the tip of the bullet so even Berger VLD 115 points don't touch.

When you're measuring the COAL, Dave, are you measuring to the tip or to the ogive?

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thanks for all the responses. But to tell you the truth, some of the answers are over my head. However, when I measure, it is to the tip of the bullet. In this case, 2.800" is the spec.

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Originally Posted by LongRange

First thing id check is your brass....take a piece of fired brass and by hand slide a bullet into the case...it should slide right in if not you have doughnuts in your necks.

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All the brass I have right now has been resized already. I will try this soon as I can

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Originally Posted by earl39

It all has to do with the ojive of the bullet and where the seating die is making contact. I would wager that the die is not contacting the ojive and as such cannot get a consistent seating depth. I will also bet the place the die is touching measures different to the tip on each bullet. Either that or the seating plug is not recessed deep enough and you are seating by pressing on the tip in which case I would go to a 33 caliber seating plug to clear the plastic tip. I went to a 6.5 plug for my 223 and it works like a charm. No damaged tips and consistent seating depth.

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i was with you until you mentioned a 33 caliber seating plug. What is that? Is that something I can order from Lee?

It's best you use one of these to get consistent readings. http://m.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Lo...nserts-1-Each/

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Originally Posted by gotcha

Not necessarily so if you have a factory chamber where chamber neck diameters are typically larger than Min. Spec. custom reamed chambers. Are you measuring from bullet tip to base? Are you using a liquid brass cleaning process? Is the bearing surface of your bullet .030" or more above the neck/shoulder junction? How many times has the brass been fired W/O re-annealing? What diameter is your neck sized brass compared to bullet seated diameter? Does bullet seating handle pressure meet more resistance near the end of the handle stroke? All the above can have influence on bullet seating length consistency. Give us the info and we can help :)

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Are you measuring from bullet tip to base? Yes.
Are you using a liquid brass cleaning process? No.
Is the bearing surface of your bullet .030" or more above the neck/shoulder junction? Don't know how to measure this. Bullet extends well below neck/shoulder junction
How many times has the brass been fired W/O re-annealing? Once fired brass - first reloading.
What diameter is your neck sized brass compared to bullet seated diameter? Before .332; After .334
Does bullet seating handle pressure meet more resistance near the end of the handle stroke? Not that I can notice.
All the above can have influence on bullet seating length consistency. Give us the info and we can help :)

thanks for your help

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Originally Posted by Davehafelein

But to tell you the truth, some of the answers are over my head. However, when I measure, it is to the tip of the bullet. In this case, 2.800" is the spec.

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The length you want to pay attention to is the CBTO, Cartridge Base To [bullet] Ogive. The tips can vary quite bit even the poly tipped ones.
http://i57.tinypic.com/2rmqooh.jpg

Bill

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Originally Posted by Davehafelein

thanks for all the responses. But to tell you the truth, some of the answers are over my head. However, when I measure, it is to the tip of the bullet. In this case, 2.800" is the spec.

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this is most likely why your getting inconsistent measurements...check the link eddie posted and look at the picture BillPa posted...you get more consistent readings off the ogive.

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Originally Posted by Davehafelein

All the brass I have right now has been resized already. I will try this soon as I can

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at this point i doubt you have doughnuts but id check after the next time you fire...ive seen and have had issues with doughnuts in the past.

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Originally Posted by Davehafelein

i was with you until you mentioned a 33 caliber seating plug. What is that? Is that something I can order from Lee?

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the seater plug earl is talking about is in your die...its the part that the tip of the bullet goes into and pushes the bullet into the case and should make contact just below the tip on the copper part of the bullet...two easy ways to check is to pull the plug out and put the tip of a bullet into the end of the plug and see where its making contact and/or seat a bullet or two and look for a small ring just below the tip of the bullet on the copper part.

Measure the bullets first. 168 SMKs have an ugly meplat. .003-.005 is not an issue for a new shooter anyway.


Edit: For some reason I thought I read SMK. Anyway, Bill covered it.

Thanks to everyone for their assistance.

I called Lee Precision today and talked to one of their techs. From what I could understand, he wasn't surprised about the variation in COAL. His thoughts were that the problem was due to the plastic tip on the bullet and bullet ogive variation. Didn't really get a solution.

The solution is get a bullet comparator and measure to the ogive of the bullet, not the tip. A lot of bullets will measure a few thou different from base to tip, but the base to ogive number will be much closer. It's just the inconsistencies of the tips.

Yep typically all my rounds are within + or - .001 base to Ogive. Base to Tip can be crazy at times. Unless I am doing load development I just rockem at that point.

Dave, No need to order another seating plug. Your plug, unlike many others, is cylindrical & hollow as DrThunder88 states. The design won't allow interference of pointy bullet tips. ( would have been nice if the LEE "tech" understood this :)) At any rate, I agree with those that recommend using the Hornady LNL Gauge for determining bullet seating depth................ When seating bullets in non-neck turned brass you'll experience variations in bullet seating resistance which is hard to feel on a standard press. Try setting your die to obtain perfect seating depth when the press handle barely "kisses" the stop at the bottom of the handle stroke. If the next cartridge has more seating resistance it will seat a bit longer. Re-seat the bullet by giving a gentle "bump" at the end of the handle stroke and you'll find the cartridge OTB to be slightly shorter. Sometimes two "bumps" will bring your OTB into range. Bullet seating consistency takes a lot of finesse even with micrometer seating dies....... Strive to get depths within a tolerance of say, .002" to .003" and soon you'll develop a "touch" that will keep you in the .0005" to .0015" range. JMHO :)

good info gotcha...when i first started loading i had several of these types of problems until i found my grove...i use to seat about .003 long and seat all my bullets then run them through the seater again at the correct depth that helped me a lot...i can vary my seating depth by about .004 using different pressures on the handle.