New Model 12 Varminter BREAKIN

I'm scheduled to pickup my new model 12 Saturday. I've spent 3 days reading opinions about break in or not to break in, but I could use some more.

Some shooters, primarily bench-rest, suggest that you do NOT allow the copper to build up in the barrel, EVER. They further suggest that Sweets 762 should be used throughout the 60 shot rigorous break in procedure. One shot, Hoppes, dry, Sweets 762 followed by WD 40?? to remove the Sweets then dry. Repeat this 10 times, then move on and fire 3 shots, cleaning as described for 10 times and then finally 5 shots, cleaning for 10 more. It seems like a lot of work. It it necessary????

Long distance shooters, which is my game, seem to indicate that one should allow the copper to build up to obtain copper equilibrium which will improve the consistency of the barrel. Most recommend firing 1 shot, clean and brush with Hoppes 9, dry, lightly oil (two drops) then repeat 5 -10 times. Move on to firing 5 shots, clean for 5 times.

I have heard everything from WD 40 to Windex window suggested. I am confused by all of it. Savage seems to favor a shortened version as for bench rest shooters. Some guides even suggest that 1200 grit lapping compound must be used in commercially made barrels, like Savage, to smooth everything out during the first 10 shot regime.

Any serious suggestions?

Best cleaners you can buy IMHO are Mercury power tune for soot and carbon,Montana extreme 50BMG for copper,slip 2000EWL for oil and 91% lso alcohol as a nutulizer...i dont do a break in i shoot one then clean shoot one clean then shoot a 3 or 5 shot group and clean and im done. The only reason i do the shoot and clean is it tells me if the barrel is going to be a heavy fouler requiring more frequent cleaning or if it can go longer in between cleanings.

I've had multiple Savage rifles over the years and never followed a break-in procedure anywhere near as rigorous as that. As a matter of fact I've never really followed any break-in procedure at all... I always give the barrel a really good scrubbing before first shoot, and then I might scrub it again in 5 shot intervals or so but that's about it. You'll hear opinions both ways, but there's really not any evidence to show that one method is better vs. another vs. no break-in.

Go out and shoot it.

All I will suggest is use the Savage recommended PITA break in. I sure as hell would not use WD-40.

I follow the savage way except without removing copper. I agree that if you remove copper it just needs to be built back up again to maintain consistancey Todd Hoddnett has also said the same. I tried the hoppes and otis stuff at first but then went to Mpro7 gun cleaner and oil. Way better than the rest imo, Remoil is pretty good for oiling your bolt and other exterior metal surfaces. I would clean the barrel with wet patch, wet brush, dry patch, oil patch, dry patch/bore mop then fire 1 shot and repeat 5 times then do 5 shot groups doing the same thing and call it good. no way would I ever use wd40 on any part of my guns. I like sticking with the Mpro 7 stuff because I dont like crossing brands, you could end up mixing some chemicals that shouldnt be mixed and do something nasty.

The most important cleaning you should do on your new Savage, is the one you do BEFORE you shoot it the first time. Get the dirt out of it. Most of mine have arrived surprisingly dirty from the factory.
After that, pick a method out of a hat and go with it.
For me, I will never waste another day doing the shoot-n-clean thing fifty times on a factory Savage barrel though. Just shoot it and clean when accuracy becomes unsatisfactory. You're not dealing with a benchrest gun here. Totally different animal.

use lockeze from your local NAPA car parts store for your final lube after cleaning

Dusty, I currently own a number of Savage rifle one of which is a Mod 12 BVSS. It currently has 3940 rds. through the factory barrel and is a VERY accurate rifle. Granted it is not a bench rest rifle but I'm sure you realize that. Break it in properly and clean it regularly and it will serve you well. As far as cleaning goes, windex, WD-40, Hoppes...
surely you jest. Those suggestions come from comedy central. The main thing you want to remove from any barrel is copper. And whoever came up with "copper equilibrium" is ...well I don't have words for that one. Sweets is great for removing copper just don't leave it in a s/s barrel to long!! One of the most effective and safe products is Eliminator by Bore Tech. Use a good coated cleaning rod and bore guide.
The break-in procedure is quite critical for the accuracy and the longevity of the barrel, a lot of choices out there. Know one thing, there are "bubba" shooters and there are serious shooters and if your are a long range shooter you must be a serious shooter. So....if you're gonna do, it do it right!!!!
Also +1 on the lockeze after cleaning !!

Hypothetical question for you, BR Dominator, no disrespect intended. Can you say as a matter of fact that your Model 12 would've been anything less than a VERY accurate rifle, had you NOT performed "x" breakin regimen? This is the great irony with "breaking in" a barrel, or not. You never really know how it would've been if you had treated it differently.

I'm a fan of Wipe-out (liquid) bore cleaner. Not as aggressive as the ammonia-based cleaners, but still removes copper very well. Use it with their Accelerator for faster results. Won't harm your barrel even if you leave it in overnight. No ammonia fumes, so it can be used indoors without respiratory issues.

YES, clean the barrel "before" shooting. I use Wipe Out and I would use a nylon brush to thoroughly clean the barrel before shooting.

FWIW . . . I would shoot it 5 times and use a bore mop with Wipe Out, swab about 5 times, let sit. I would flush the barrel with the flush of your choice, but spray brake cleaner works fine. Wipe excess from both ends. I would then take a jag with a patch with a few drops of bore oil and swab about 3 to 5 times. I would take one more clean patch to catch any access in the bore.

I don't recommend this, but I clean the barrel about every 150 rounds after the first 5 shots. Never had no problems, all are still tac drivers.

Most put break in procedures online or with the product to protect themselves. JMO, but I have forgot how many barrels I have performed the above on.

JMO, Dennis

And again we see opinions are all over the map! :-)

Please let us know which method you choose :-)

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Originally Posted by barrel-nut

Hypothetical question for you, BR Dominator, no disrespect intended. Can you say as a matter of fact that your Model 12 would've been anything less than a VERY accurate rifle, had you NOT performed "x" breakin regimen? This is the great irony with "breaking in" a barrel, or not. You never really know how it would've been if you had treated it differently.

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Nope, can't say that I KNOW that for sure. I do KNOW that every rifle I own is extremely accurate. ALL have been broken in properly and cleaned properly. I will say that I have been lucky and have received a quality product from the manufacturer, i.e. great barrel/action. Go to any local NRA sanctioned match and question the "competitive" shooters and see what the response will be regarding "breaking in" and cleaning. There may not be 1 correct way, many may work.
I guess you could also state the "great irony" of breaking in a new engine on your new truck. Some new owners will and others will just drive the snot out of it and all will have their opinions, ignorant or not.

The first sentence is all you really needed to say.

Also, as we mature as shooters, and in life in general, the more enlightened of us discover that opinions of others, bubbas included, are not always "ignorant" just because they don't match up with our own. There are indeed many ways to skin the proverbial cat, and in the matter at hand, "breaking in" a new barrel, there's no real way to prove what's best for each individual barrel.
Some are finished as smooth as glass before they leave the factory. This is typical of the high-end custom makers that hand lap their barrels. With these, the tolerances are so tight, and the finish is so smooth that a little copper buildup is usually detrimental to accuracy.
Others may have a bore that's as rough as a back country gravel road. With a factory Savage barrel you are more likely to get the latter than the former. However, this does not mean that it can not be a shooter. I have barrels of both types, and all can be accurate. The rough ones just inherently trap more copper. To keep such a barrel copper-free, you'd literally have to clean after each and every shot for the life of the barrel. You will find many on this forum, myself included, who's experience has been that such barrels tend to shoot better with a certain degree of fouling. I believe this is the "copper equilibrium" theory that you so authoritatively poo-pooed on earlier. The OP asked about opinions on breaking in a SAVAGE factory barrel. In my experience, no amount of "breaking in"-and believe me, i've tried- will smooth out the rougher examples that sometimes leave the factory. That being said, even heavily fouled, mine are still capable of half-moa to 3/4 moa. Would they have been worse barrels had i not spent a whole afternoon scrubbing and shooting? In my ignorant opinion, no. Can i prove that? Again, no. But i can definitely say that after all that tedious scrubbing, there are still loads of reamer chatter marks down the bore. They'll never go away. But if it shoots half-moa, i feel that's good enough for a factory tube. Some barrels were just born to be foulers, and unfortunately the Savage factory puts out quite a lot of them.
With a quality hand-lapped aftermarket barrel, as i stated earlier, my opinion is that that's a different animal, and a little more care is in order, if nothing other than so that you're not left wondering "what if.." on something that costs more than many complete entry-level rifles. For those, I side more with Dennis' way of thinking. He's sold a few thousand of them, so his opinion should hopefully qualify on your scale as somewhere above "ignorant" or "bubba".

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Originally Posted by barrel-nut

The first sentence is all you really needed to say.

Also, as we mature as shooters, and in life in general, the more enlightened of us discover that opinions of others, bubbas included, are not always "ignorant" just because they don't match up with our own. There are indeed many ways to skin the proverbial cat, and in the matter at hand, "breaking in" a new barrel, there's no real way to prove what's best for each individual barrel.
Some are finished as smooth as glass before they leave the factory. This is typical of the high-end custom makers that hand lap their barrels. With these, the tolerances are so tight, and the finish is so smooth that a little copper buildup is usually detrimental to accuracy.
Others may have a bore that's as rough as a back country gravel road. With a factory Savage barrel you are more likely to get the latter than the former. However, this does not mean that it can not be a shooter. I have barrels of both types, and all can be accurate. The rough ones just inherently trap more copper. To keep such a barrel copper-free, you'd literally have to clean after each and every shot for the life of the barrel. You will find many on this forum, myself included, who's experience has been that such barrels tend to shoot better with a certain degree of fouling. I believe this is the "copper equilibrium" theory that you so authoritatively poo-pooed on earlier. The OP asked about opinions on breaking in a SAVAGE factory barrel. In my experience, no amount of "breaking in"-and believe me, i've tried- will smooth out the rougher examples that sometimes leave the factory. That being said, even heavily fouled, mine are still capable of half-moa to 3/4 moa. Would they have been worse barrels had i not spent a whole afternoon scrubbing and shooting? In my ignorant opinion, no. Can i prove that? Again, no. But i can definitely say that after all that tedious scrubbing, there are still loads of reamer chatter marks down the bore. They'll never go away. But if it shoots half-moa, i feel that's good enough for a factory tube. Some barrels were just born to be foulers, and unfortunately the Savage factory puts out quite a lot of them.
With a quality hand-lapped aftermarket barrel, as i stated earlier, my opinion is that that's a different animal, and a little more care is in order, if nothing other than so that you're not left wondering "what if.." on something that costs more than many complete entry-level rifles. For those, I side more with Dennis' way of thinking. He's sold a few thousand of them, so his opinion should hopefully qualify on your scale as somewhere above "ignorant" or "bubba".

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Well.....so sorry I have insulted you but the term "ignorant" simply means lack of knowledge or information on a particular subject. Not meant to be a derogatory statement. I for one am ignorant on many subjects and if I want to change that I simply educate myself on that subject.
If you are looking for proof that breaking in or not breaking in a particular barrel then I suggest don't do it, don't waste your time.
With regards to your statement "some are finished smooth as glass" I personally have never witnessed one. I installed a Krieger on my 6BR after almost 5K rds. down the factory tube. We "scoped" it before breaking it in and smooth as glass is not what we saw. Nor in the Broughton or Brux my teammates have. All barrels have a certain degree of chatter marks, roughness and reamer marks in the chamber, throat and barrel. Proper break-in/cleaning will minimize these marks. Need proof on that one, use a scope before and after.
Proper cleaning is to remove copper and carbon build-up. The goal is not to achieve and maintain a copper-free barrel. I shoot "F" open class and we are allowed 5 sighters in our first string. This is to refoul the barrel. A clean and cold barrel is not accurate. This does not result in a "heavily" fouled barrel.
I personally do not own any rifles that could qualify as "tack-drivers" nor are any capable of 1/2 - 3/4 moa.
If you ever happen to be in the area of PMRPC, please join us in one of our friendly match's and by all means bring your 1/2 moa tackdriver with its "copper equilibrium". I am always in a "learning" mode.
Hopefully others were not so sensitive to my previous post and didn't get their knickers in a twist too.
Shoot straight and remember.....no 9's !!

It's a Savage... just shoot it. Mine shoot MUCH better when dirty. That is what she likes, so I like it too!!

DK

http://bartleinbarrels.com/BreakInCleaning.htm

let the barrel tell you how to treat it.
from someone i wouldn't argue with.

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Originally Posted by BR Dominator

Well.....so sorry I have insulted you but the term "ignorant" simply means lack of knowledge or information on a particular subject. Not meant to be a derogatory statement. I for one am ignorant on many subjects and if I want to change that I simply educate myself on that subject.

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Finally, something I can agree with! It has always been a pet peeve of mine when someone gets upset at the notion of being called 'ignorant'. You're right - all it means is that you lack knowledge of something, not that you're stupid or dumb. Words do mean things.

As far as cleaning my rifle, when it's dirty I clean it - end of story. And I shoot happily ever after.

bobbyj

I have tried a bunch of different methods for breaking in barrels. I can't really tell any difference, and honestly, since each barrel is it's own animal, it is impossible to say whether it helps or not! Now, I clean the barrel really good before I go out for the first time. Then I shoot as much as I want to that day and clean it when I get home and let it set overnight with foaming cleaner to get the copper out. I use some patches and hoppes to get the powder and crud out and then only clean after that after it starts shooting worse than normal, or if I'm going to put it up for the winter or summer, etc. It's much more fun for me to do it this way than to spend 3 hours cleaning a barrel the first time out. But, if I were a serious bench rest shooter and the barrel maker said do a break in, that's what I would do. I'm not, so I don't. YMMV

My Savage factory barrels are all tack drivers, and I am quite certain it is because I was meticulous about my break-in procedure...

I cleaned the factory oil out of the barrel before my first shot. Then I fired 100-200 rounds looking for a good load. Then I would clean it again, for the second time. Once I found a good load, I figured it was time to get serious and start refining my load because I had, by then, PROPERLY broke in my barrel.

There.

How do you like that?

Shoot the **** thing and don't worry about it. Swap it out a bit before putting it away and be sure to pass a dry patch thru it a few times before firing it again the next time you go out. Whenever accuracy falls off, lightly clean (don't be too thorough) and have at it again. It's a factory barrel. It's full of chatter and tooling marks and will never be anything different. Trying to keep it clean will just be a waste of time. Let it go and enjoy it, 'cuz it probably shoots better than most any other non-custom barrel or rifle out there.

If you think the barrel's accuracy might be hindering your performance, get a good aftermarket barrel and see how she shoots. You might want to be more careful with a hand-lapped high end target barrel, but that's a whole other beast with a different price tag to go with it. If you're lucky, the aftermarket barrel will out shoot the original factory barrel, but chances are you (not YOU, but casual shooters / hunters in general) are not good enough to tell the difference. :)

Not sure what you mean PITA? The WD 40 is supposed to neutralize a copper solvent, such as Sweets 762. I've been reluctant to use Sweets in SS barrels, so I've stayed with Hoppes copper solvent.

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Originally Posted by barrel-nut

Hypothetical question for you, BR Dominator, no disrespect intended. Can you say as a matter of fact that your Model 12 would've been anything less than a VERY accurate rifle, had you NOT performed "x" breakin regimen? This is the great irony with "breaking in" a barrel, or not. You never really know how it would've been if you had treated it differently.

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Good point, one just doesn't know!

No expert by any stretch of the imagination. My background in shooting is military. Pristine barrels was ground into my way of thinking. Every day I cleaned my rifle and barrel in country. When I joined this group I had several different rifles and joined the barrel-nut class with my 111 .270. some may remember my issues with large groups when i first got the rifle. I had followed the savage recommended break in and continued my way of cleaning after every range trip and even tried cleaning between shots. I was told to not clean it ever until it started shooting poorly. sure enough a box through it and in closed up to just above 1" at 100 yards. with handloads it has become a consistent sub-moa rifle. recently it opened up to near 2" at 100 yards I cleaned the barrel and decoppered it shot five rounds through it at the house before taking it to the range and the second group was right back to 3/4" at 100 yards. it will shoot 1/2" from time to time but 3/4" to 7/8" is the more consistent group sizes I get out of it. I have scoped it several times just to see the copper grow I am trying to start predicting when accuracy is going to fall off from copper fouling.