Misinformation Regarding Savage Bronze Colored Extractors

I was having some problems with my extractor on my 22-250.
I didn't feel as though I'd had enough rounds through it to consider it to be worn out.

I asked around online and someone mentioned that there was a known problem with the bronze (actually a copper alloy) extractors and that Savage would send a free replacement if contacted about it.

So, I still had Joe's e-mail from dealing with them on my ML last Fall.

I wrote to him and thanked them for the efforts on the ML, which I shot last week, and it is PERFECT.

I asked about the extractor, stating that if it was a true defect that I wouldn't mind getting a replacement.

Joe called me this morning about the extractor.
He said that he has read all kinds of stuff online about the extractors and similar things, and that he's even seen himself misquoted.

The true story is that the extractor supplier had to change the manufacturing process due to excessive costs and EPA concerns over how the alloy was made.
They simply changed color because the manufacturer began using a different alloy.
Nothing to do with bad extractors being linked to a certain color or material.

Joe is a heck of a nice guy, and I just wanted to put some straight from the horse's mouth information out here for a change.

He's still sending me an extractor, even though I told him I didn't want something for nothing.

Good to know. Thanks.

I am guessing that the bronze color vs. non bronze color was only valid during the time frame when the current production extractors, i.e. GOOD ones were not bronze colored because there sure was a bunch of bronze colored extractors that simply didn't work, and when replaced with a non bronze colored one, voila, they did work!

So apparently right now, you might get a new extractor that works well that could be either bronze or gray in color if I am reading your post correctly.

So far I have not seen a gray colored extractor that didn't work but have seen a LOT of bronze ones that didn't, although I haven't bought a new extractor for a few years now.

I had a bronze colored extractor in an 80's vintage 110 that lasted through three barrels without issue (Conservitively 10,000 rounds), until I re-barelled the gun with it's 4th barrel then I had a lot of extraction problems. I switched it to the steel colored one and all the problems went away but I think that it was just worn out.

FWIW I believe they are Beryllium.

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The true story is that the extractor supplier had to change the manufacturing process due to excessive costs and EPA concerns over how the alloy was made.
They simply changed color because the manufacturer began using a different alloy.
Nothing to do with bad extractors being linked to a certain color or material.

Joe is a heck of a nice guy, and I just wanted to put some straight from the horse's mouth information out here for a change.

He's still sending me an extractor, even though I told him I didn't want something for nothing.

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We know that. If you read something different here it isn't from us that have been around. The old extractors were made from Beryllium Copper. I believe they are actually stronger than the current extractors BUT I have never tested this. According to material specifications, they should be. The current steel extractors are PLENTY strong.

Joe is the man.

I can say from my experience there is a difference. The new extractors are made of steel, because a magnet will stick to them, unlike the old copper ones. Second, I have seen first hand where the copper extractors corrode from use of bore cleaning solvents, and loose there effectiveness. It is the same thing as using a bronze brush, the bore solvents will deteriorate them. I can recall a few times I cleaned my gun with Sweets, verified that it was out of the chamber and bore, and put the gun in the safe, pulled it out weeks latter to find the extractor was green, and sticky, from a small amount the was hidden somewhere. The copper extractors do were out, either from solvents, or use.

Well gentlemen, I don't think if they're beryllium copper or steel makes a huge difference either way.

Lately I been working with one that drops a cartridge off early now matter what, .140" detent ball, longer ejector, springs...you name it, I've tried it. Even had my wife annoy the snot out of it, that usually gets me moving. ;D

So I got to looking. I have a few post '64 Mod 70 Winblusters which have the basically same bolt head setup and dimensions as Savage, a few minor differences dimensionally, but nothing major.

Except one.

This is a 70...a Savage ( take note...beryllium copper extractor)
http://i47.tinypic.com/zuikif.jpg

...a Savage ( take note...beryllium copper extractor)
http://i48.tinypic.com/2z5svo3.jpg

Notice the God awful chamfer? Its the only real difference between the two.

Both rifles are chambered in 22-250. The 70 spit'm out no problem, the Savage dropped the same brass off 100%.
So I mixed up some JB Quick then filled in the chamfer. I didn't reduce the ID or depth of the face. It ain't purdy, but proved at least something, it ejected the same brass with the same extractor that previously failed to eject 100% of the time.

http://i49.tinypic.com/14izrrs.jpg

...and no, before anyone gets their shorts all bunched up, I didn't shoot it.

My next move, I'm going to basically "re-bush" a bolthead to eliminate the chamfer.

Anyone have other thoughts or ideas ?

Bill

I have had 2 "Bronze" Extractors wear to the point they no longer functioned, a call to Savage and they replaced them free of charge, BOTH times indicating they had known issues with them, both times taking my serial #. Whatever the issue is / Was or if it was with All of the copper colored ones or just certain runs, I guarantee there IS / Was a issue with them. if i dug around I'm sure I still have the Savage letterhead note that came with one stating the "Upgraded" extractor.....

BillPa, that's a great post.
The chamfer may well be the issue with my 22-250 as well. I'll give it another look.
If mine has too much I may either buy another head or see if one of my machinsts buddies can fill it in and mill it back out to spec.

Others,
He did say beryllium-copper, which is an alloy. I just couldn't remember the beryllium part. :-[

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Originally Posted by tucker301

The chamfer may well be the issue with my 22-250 as well. I'll give it another look.

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What I thinking of doing, boring put the edge of the bolthead and make a interference fit bushing with drill rod, press and Loctite it in place then do the final machining and make the extractor cut.

I guess a real welder ( not me!) could run a bead on with a mig then re-machine it. I don't know if thats possible or not.

Bill

Tig weld would be the way to go. Heat treat would be my worry. could maybe use some heat sink paste around it. Also matching the alloy would be preffered. I could do it for you Bill but it might take a little investigative work to find out the right alloy filler wire and a source for it.

How about opening up a .223 bolt head? I haven't tried it, but it looks like it would work.

SSS could probably do it for you.

I've done about everything Bill has and then some. Some times little things work, sometimes nothing works till you start changing components. I do know what works when you want to spend the time. I've bushed bolt heads, bored out bolt heads and made completely new extractors to get reliable ejection.
The chamfer is part of the problem, especially on short cases like the BR.
I bored out a bolt head and installed a tapered ring if you will, just to close up the tolerance and get rid of the excessive chamfer.
The bolt face was bored out about .050" with a .005 taper being bigger at the bolt face and smaller at the nose. I then made a ring bushing of corresponding size and taper. The ring was split for the extractor slot and then it is compressed slightly and snapped into place. The taper retains it in the bolt head and a drop of super glue keeps it from rotating. There is basically no pressure on this ring, it just keeps the case centered and retained till the ejector tips it out.
The other problem is with the extractors. The copper berylium extractors were cast, and consequently varied from the print. The reason for copper berylium... lubricity and corrosion resistance. When the vendor could not fill the order because of the previously stated reasons, Savage had some made from steell that were machined on swiss type cnc machining centers. These were actually made to the print mean specs. They functioned 100% better that the old copper berylium extractors. These extractors had no finish on them only a slight blue color from heat treat.The current extractors differ slightly from those and I believe these are MIM (metal injected molded).
The biggest problem is not lack of engagement on the rim, but rather the clearance under the hook. The gap between the bolt face and underside of the claw is excessive by the time you figure in the clearance needed for it to slide without binding and tolerance in the depth of the T-slot. This often results in over .020" more than the rim thickness of a case. When the rim cannot be held close to the bolt face, it will slide sideways especially when a large chamfer gives it clearance to move.