More on my 7.62 Tokarev rifle build (finally coming together)

I have been working on loads for this for about 9 months or so. I had envisioned loading heavy stuff at subsonic levels while being able to use factory ammo in a pinch. Everything is finally coming together and I have some loads that are showing real promise. Most loads are shooting in the 2 MOA range which is good considering the max range with the subsonic loadings will probably be 150 yards or so. I still need to do some more testing so maybe I can shrink the groups. The barrel seems to be breaking in well because the groups have gotten smaller over the last 100 rounds or so, hopefully the trend continues.

The rifle itself is a basic short action Savage that I had rebarrelled and chambered in the 7.62x25 Tokarev round. The barrel is 1/10 twist and a little over 24". The reason it is so long is because I was wanting to make sure all powder burned in the barrel if possible. The bolt .223 boltface had to be opened up a little to accomodate the bigger 7.62 case. I turned the ejector around to prevent the cases from ejecting because they would eject just out of the chamber and I would have to "fish" them out. Now all I do is pull the empty case off the bolt face making it much easier than fishing.

Pegleggreg has helped out immensely with load data and without him I probably would have given up long ago while trying to figure out what works.

I was using CCI 400 primers but now I have started using Remington 7 1/2 BR primers and they seem to be working out well also. Most of my loads use 168 grain SMK's for now but I will be trying some even heavier stuff. I am trying to get the heaviest bullet I can to just below the supersonic level. I have also loaded some really hot stuff (110 grain Varmint bullets) and according to Pegleggreg's calculations they should be reaching 1700+ FPS. The 110 grain load is extremely accurate shooting less than 1/2 inch at 50 yards when measured outside to outside but still comfortable to shoot without hearing protection.

So far I have tried Longshot, HS-6 and most recently Clays.

With Longshot I loaded 5.5 grains over a 168 SMK and it was definately a more powerful load. It kicked quite a bit harder than my 223 bolt gun and hit steel targets with ALOT of energy. The primers still looked great with no signs of pressure. It has about the same report as my wife's 9mm blowback AR but kicked a lot harder. I suspect because the Longshot is such a slow powder it allows me to load it to gain a lot more velocity and energy compared to HS6 or Clays. If I decide to load some hotter stuff Longshot will probably be what I use to gain as much velocity as I can while keeping pressures in check. With 8 grains over a 125 grain softpoint noise levels were still comfortable without hearing protection while providing a accurate, flatter shooting round.

HS-6 was the primary powder I have used during most of the testing and has proved to work well. I have used it to load 110, 125, 150, 155 and 168 grain bullets. Most shot well enough and some proved to be very quiet. Five grains of HS-6 seems to be the sweet spot for the 168 grain SMK's. Using 5 grains over the 168 grain SMK's the gun is about as quiet as a HV 22 lr out of a rifle. When testing at night there is no muzzle flash. I know felt recoil is not the best way to test but this load kicks about the same as my 223 bolt gun. I do believe this load is going supersonic but relative to the noise level it seems like a pretty powerful load.

The past few days I decided to try some loads using some Clays I had laying around. So far this looks promising also.

With 4.5 grains of the Clays it knocked the primer loose and flattened it causing crisp, squared edges from obviously high pressures. The case was extremely hard to extract and ruined the case during extraction because it shaved some of the rim off.

With 4 grains it was still supersonic and my wife even commented how it sounded wierd. I presume because the muzzle noise was pretty quiet but the bullet still cracked from going supersonic. You could actually hear the crack as it went down range over the sound of the muzzle blast. It did flatten the primer a little bit so I decided to lighten the load a bit.

I loaded the case with 3.5 grains and found a perfect combination as long as it shoots well and that seems to be the case. It was very quiet but still had a a lot of felt recoil. The recoil felt more of a push rather than a jolt and about the same as my 223 AR (My AR weighs less than the bolt gun too). It was rather weird firing this load, the felt recoil didn't match the sound of firing. I fired it at night and it has absolutely no muzzle blast. I fired about 10 rounds and all acted the same with none going supersonic. My wife and son actually kind of giggled over the fact of how quiet it is compared to the recoil.

The Clays loads are definately quieter than the HS6 loads when felt recoil is the same. The recoil of the load using 3.5 grains of Clays felt the same as the 5 grains of HS6 I was loading previously but was noticeably quieter. I compared the load using 3.5 grains of Clays and 168 grain SMK's to a 16" Ruger 10/22 loaded with CCI Subsonic HP's. I fired the Tokarev then the Ruger right after and the CCI Subsonics were definately louder than the load using 3.5 grains of Clays load and168 SMK's.

I am going to do some testing using Trailboss to try to get a little more case fill. I will be buying it as well as some 22 grain bullets to try.

Here are a few pictures of the rounds in case someone missed my post from a few months ago.
Here is a 168grain SMK loading compared to a 45 ACP when I was still using surplus cases:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Savage/S5000149.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Savage/S5000151.jpg[/img]

I will post updates when I get done testing a littel more using the Trailboss and heavier bullets.

Thanks for looking,
Dolomite

Very Cool Little Gun The subs are a lot of fun , Right On Dan

Unique might be a good powder to try, or 2400. Unique is bulky and fills more of the case which I like. How do you deteermine what charges to use with those long bullets? Did you think about maybe using .30 carbine cases fo a subsonic round?

El Lobo

I will not be using Clays anymore. It definately works really well but it does have one side effect, it stresses the brass ay too much. The cases I used the Clays with have very loose primer pockets now. They are very quiet but not worth the cost of destroying brass after a few loads.

I bought some 180 grainers today. With 3.5 grains of Clays they never make it out of the barrel and with 4 grains they pierce the primer so Clays is out of the question with the 180's. Longshot worked pretty well but was a little louder than I had hoped, maybe with some more load developement they will work better. Actually I never really got any groups to shoot under 1" at 25 yards. I believe the 180's are too heavy for my 10 twist at the reduced velocities.

I went back to trying Trailboss with some 155 SMK's I had. This load is still resonably quiet and very accurate. The charge weight turns out to be 5 grains with the case full. I just fill the case and wipe off the excess then compress the charge with the bullet. Makes loading easy enough and no chance of a double charge. The sound is about the same level as CCI subsonics out of a 16" 10/22, just a little deeper of a tone. I will be loading a bunch of these for more testing.

I tried some 110 grain varmint bullets using the same charge. They worked well but they only grouped about 1/2" at 25 yards. Using varmint bullets at reduced velocities is kind of usless in my eyes anyways. I can say that using 7.4 grains of HS-6 with the same bullet is extremely accurate and definately have enough energy to ruin an animals day. That load grouped at less than 1/2" out to 75 yards.

I also tried some 168 grain SMK's using the same method of filling the cases. I still need to do some more testing because the groups were a little bigger than the 155's. The 168's have always been the most accurate regardless of powder and velocities so I think some more groups are needed to make a decision. I am almost out of 168's so I will probably have to wait to do some more testing.

Dolomite

So what is your intended purpose with this bullet? I had at one time toyed with the idea of a 300 Whisper. Are you using for varmint removal, close quarters shooting? Just curious, I'm new to the sight, so I have missed the original post.

Tank

Sounds cool, but just so I am in in tune with you, what is the intended role of this weapon? Are you putting a can on it as in a .300 whisper to make it more quiet, is it a blaster, what do you do with something like this?

I think I feel a new need and a hole in my tactical niche, and I will need to sell it to the MRS.!!!

The biggest purpose for this rifle is to occupy my time. I can punch 30 cal holes for cheap. With Trailboss I can load over 700 rounds per $14 can and with the Longshot I can get about 1200 per $24 can. I can load each round with match bullets for less the 30 cents a round using SMK's. If I buy surplus I can probably cut that amount in half. Brass can be bought new or you can buy anything that isn't surplus and reload it. Again this is cheaper than making whisper brass. Reloading dies are less than $30 new for the Tokarev where whisper dies are a lot more expensive and usually have a wait to get them.

Another advantage of using the Tokarev over the Whisper is surplus ammo is available and can be used in a pinch. Mine shoots surplus at about 1/2"-1" at 25 yards, not spectacular but still fun.

I will be using it for pest control also, it will allow me to shoot problem animals with no one the wiser. It will hopefully be more more effective than using a 22 lr which is about the same noise levels. I have the barrel threaded so a can is definately on my short list of things to get. I will probably be getting a YHM Cobra M2 Modular. It is a 9mm supressor but should work fine with this rifle as well as firearms I have. It has all the features I want, able to be disassembled for cleaning for use with a 22 lr, universal mounting system so you can put mounts on different weapons quickly and easily.

I was able to find a load that works really well with the 180 grains spitzers. Five grains of Longshot turns the gun into a MOA capable rifle.

Thanks for the interest,
Dolomite

I'll be in the same boat you are in sometime next year. I went the 300 whisper route though. The Shilen barrel won't be done for 4 months or so, and my suppressor is still being built. I've heard it is wise to start sort of higher velocity and work your way down to get a subsonic load, so you don't have as much risk of getting bullets stuck in the bore. Has this been your experience? Also, have you considered trying to get a magazine (a CZ-52 or Tokarev) to fit? It would be pretty neat to have an adapter so that you could use surplus magazines.
-Dan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snipecatcher

I'll be in the same boat you are in sometime next year. I went the 300 whisper route though. The Shilen barrel won't be done for 4 months or so, and my suppressor is still being built. I've heard it is wise to start sort of higher velocity and work your way down to get a subsonic load, so you don't have as much risk of getting bullets stuck in the bore. Has this been your experience? Also, have you considered trying to get a magazine (a CZ-52 or Tokarev) to fit? It would be pretty neat to have an adapter so that you could use surplus magazines.
-Dan

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I actually used a gunsmith barrel from numrich's. It was less than $40 and of the 5 we bought 4 are proving to be MOA. They have them in stock. They do look rough on the outside but are rally working out well with everything from bolt guns to AR10 type rifles. Because there is no load data for the Tok round loaded with heavy bullets I kind of had to figure out starting loads. I did have a few bullets get stuck during this learning curve but I have a pretty good idea of starting points without going overboard on pressures. I do start on the higher end of the powder charge to prevent any more stuck bullets. I have had a primer blow out but it did no damage so I know the action can handle moderate overpressures.

The biggest problem I have had is figuring out a way for the cases to eject. Because the cases are so short they come off the bolt head just outside of the chamber. I would have to fish the cases out which was a huge pain and most times I would just tilt the gun up making consistent firing position impossible. To correct this I flipped the ejector over so it no longer ejects. I would have just taken it out but I was afraid I would misplace it for later use. Easiest fix was to flip it and reinstall the capture pin. I think I might try to arrange a flat spring on the inside of the reciever to kind of knock the empty clear of the action. Right now the empty case stays in the bolt head and I just grab it and pull it out, easy and effective as well as the fact I can easily collect the empties.

Adapting a mag would not be that big of a problem for me as long as I can find a magazine that would accomodate the length. I had to make a block for my AR in this round so fabing something up is doable. 30 carbine is too short and other than AR's I don;t know of any other mags that would be long enough yet small enough to use with a bolt gun. Because the gun started life as a 308 the magwell is large enough, it is just a matter of finding a mag. I know gas operated AR's using heavy Tok rounds are able to feed from a standard mag but I haven't tried fitting them to this action. I am happy loading one round at a time so a magazine isn;t that big of a requirement for me.

Let me know if you have any more questions
Dolomite

I see no mention of cast bullets? Did I miss it or are you no using cast? Seems a shame to use such expensive bullets at that speed, when cast may be even better performers.

I was using the SMK's mostly because they are what I had on hand. I have a friend who has done a lot of testing using cast bullets but even with those we are running into issues of reliably expanding at reduced velocities. We are now going a different direction, we are going to start using 12 twist barrels with heavy bullets. By using a slower twist we can put the heavy bullets on the verge of being unstable so when they do impact the hope is they will tumble easier. This should be more reliable that trying to get HP's to expand, especially when the velocities are dropping.

Also, SMK's have a thinner jacket than most hunting type bullets. This should help the bullet disrupt upon impact.

Here is a scan of penetration tests based on velocities. Not my testing but someone elses.
http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg
If you notice the SMK's disrupt more when comapared to most others.

I am in the process of putting together another Tokarev Savage, this time with a 12 twist barrel for some more testing. This time it is in hopes of being able to get a load worked up for a guy who shoots FA AR's chambered in the Tokarev round. He has been trying to suppress it but the factory ammo is supersonic so suppressing it isn't the greatest. Hopefully we can get a load that will work for him so he can really enjoy shooting a quiet FA.

Dolomite

Have you tried the flat base BR style bullets? I think they will be more accurate at the closer distances. The boattails probably ain't got enough velocity or distance to stabilize.

We are actually looking for a bit less stability than what we were normally getting with our 10 twist barrels. As long as the bullets are stable to 100-150 yards that would be great. The drop at 150 yards is right at 15 inches with a 25 yard zero using one of my more accurate loads. Most of the shooting is going to be a lot closer than that. We are just wanting to try to figure out a way to get the same performance as a HP but without the worry of keeping velocity above a certain level to ensure reliable performance. It would seem that the bullet instability would increase as velocity/spin drops. This would make it better than a HP whose performance gets worse as velocity drops. Our goal is to figure out a load that is accurate yet unstable enough to tumble and disrupt upon impact while still being subsonic.

I know the Whisper would be a better choice but we are also looking at the cost of shooting factory ammo. 7.62x25 Tokarev is about as cheap as it gets and way cheaper than anything "Whisper". The Tokarev ammo is also readily available.

The flat bases would work better for more case capacity as well and with the ranges we are working at the difference in accuracy is going to be negligible.

Dolomite

gotta bring this one back up. I have also thought about doing something along these lines also. especially now that I have my second AR done that is chambered in this round. first one is a blowback the latest is a gas piston.

Dolomite, I remember when you posted your build with the CZ mags on Arfcom a couple years ago. I sent you a IM, would love to see your reloading info for this round on the heavier pills (110grain and up).

here is the AR from a few months ago. This was the first good range test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRVSFolHHsM

I have since finished it. Heat treated the barrel and gas block, redid a couple parts and assembled it with a proper rail. I love shooting the surplus, but the idea of using the long projectiles in 5.45x39 magazines with my suppressor....hehehe.

IM returned.

Dolomite

I have used Trail Boss powder for loading hand gun and long gun cartridges for use in SASS type matches. Excellant powder for reduced loads in both types of firearms. Handloader magazine recently carried an article about loading rifle cartridges with Trail Boss. It was information the author had obtain from the powder manufacturer on determining powder charges for unlisted chamberings. Not very difficult but a little time consuming. Somewhere I have encountered a warning with this powder to never use compressed loads. Can't remember exactly where but seems like its one of the warnings from the powder manufacturer. From your post I'm lead too understand that your using a very compressed load if your filling the case level full and then seating the bullet. Are you aware of this warning?

dolomite is there any way i can get ur loads for the 7.62x25 also. ive got a gas ar and im wanting to get some loads. thanks btw how does the privi brass compare to the starline.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snipecatcher

I'll be in the same boat you are in sometime next year. I went the 300 whisper route though. The Shilen barrel won't be done for 4 months or so, and my suppressor is still being built. I've heard it is wise to start sort of higher velocity and work your way down to get a subsonic load, so you don't have as much risk of getting bullets stuck in the bore. Has this been your experience? Also, have you considered trying to get a magazine (a CZ-52 or Tokarev) to fit? It would be pretty neat to have an adapter so that you could use surplus magazines.
-Dan

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I actually used a gunsmith barrel from numrich's. It was less than $40 and of the 5 we bought 4 are proving to be MOA. They have them in stock. They do look rough on the outside but are rally working out well with everything from bolt guns to AR10 type rifles. Because there is no load data for the Tok round loaded with heavy bullets I kind of had to figure out starting loads. I did have a few bullets get stuck during this learning curve but I have a pretty good idea of starting points without going overboard on pressures. I do start on the higher end of the powder charge to prevent any more stuck bullets. I have had a primer blow out but it did no damage so I know the action can handle moderate overpressures.

The biggest problem I have had is figuring out a way for the cases to eject. Because the cases are so short they come off the bolt head just outside of the chamber. I would have to fish the cases out which was a huge pain and most times I would just tilt the gun up making consistent firing position impossible. To correct this I flipped the ejector over so it no longer ejects. I would have just taken it out but I was afraid I would misplace it for later use. Easiest fix was to flip it and reinstall the capture pin. I think I might try to arrange a flat spring on the inside of the reciever to kind of knock the empty clear of the action. Right now the empty case stays in the bolt head and I just grab it and pull it out, easy and effective as well as the fact I can easily collect the empties.

Adapting a mag would not be that big of a problem for me as long as I can find a magazine that would accomodate the length. I had to make a block for my AR in this round so fabing something up is doable. 30 carbine is too short and other than AR's I don;t know of any other mags that would be long enough yet small enough to use with a bolt gun. Because the gun started life as a 308 the magwell is large enough, it is just a matter of finding a mag. I know gas operated AR's using heavy Tok rounds are able to feed from a standard mag but I haven't tried fitting them to this action. I am happy loading one round at a time so a magazine isn;t that big of a requirement for me.

Let me know if you have any more questions
Dolomite

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Would you mind posting a link to the barrel on Numrich?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thehouseproduct

Would you mind posting a link to the barrel on Numrich?

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Prices have went up a little but they are still quite inexpensive:
Round steel blanks, 1.2" at breech tapering to .965" at muzzle. Rifled and unchambered, in the white. 25-1/4" length. $42.15
Round steel blanks, 1.2" at breech tapering to .965" at muzzle. Rifled and unchambered, in the white. 20-1/2" length. $36.50

Again, 4 out of the 5 are proven MOA shooters. Even though they look like crap on the outside they clean up well. Because of the scale on the outside from manufacturing they are a bit rough on tooling.


My most recent version of the Savage Tokarev uses a 16" Armalite barrel rather than the ones linked above. It has been tensioned as well. The tensioning sleeve is 304 SS and the tensioning nut is 416 SS. The bolt face was opened up to .400 to accomodate the .393" rim size. The outside of the barrel is been machined concentric to the bore. Then a sleeve is put over the barrel and the tensioning nut tightened. This slightly stretches the barrel and in my thoughts reduces barrel whip like a bull barrel without the weight. On a 223 barrel I had the tensioning process fixed a heat related drift I had. You could actually measure the amount of stretch on a longer barrel I previously tensioned.

This barrel is also turning out to be a shooter with 180 grain Spitzers by Sierra (2150). I also like the rounds because they readily tumble. At velocities in the 1050 neighborhood they would tumble between 6" and 10" of water yet when they do not hit anything they remain stable enough to shoot some nice groups. In the begining a friend and I where trying to get HP's to expand at subsonic velocities, they were very unreliable and it only got worse as the velocity dropped. By getting a load that will tumble at those reduced velocities it is more reliable than HP's at causing damage. Also, as velocity drops it should only get better.

At these velocities, shooting my handloads, it is also pretty quiet when you consider the energy levels (400-484 ft-lbs at 1000fps-1100fps) with the 180 grain bullet. The sound level is on par with a 22lr rifle shooting high velocity ammunition. A 22 lr pistol as well as my wife's 9mm AR are louder. The noise comparisons are WITHOUT a suppressor but hopefully I can find a friend locally who has a can so I can give that a try.

A few pictures of the new version:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Tok%20build/IMG_0198.jpg[/img]

Tensioning nut:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Tok%20build/IMG_0203.jpg[/img]

Round sitting on the bolt face:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Tok%20build/IMG_0207.jpg[/img]

Bolt face opened up to .400" from .378" to make room for the .393" rim of the Tokarev round:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Tok%20build/IMG_0204.jpg[/img]

Some dummy rounds I made up for when it was being chambered:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Tok%20build/IMG_0195.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Tok%20build/IMG_0197.jpg[/img]
L-R:
150 grain 30-30 bullet
180 grain HotCor bullet
168 grain SMK
180 Sierra Spitzer

Since taking these pictures I have pulled this barrel off and installed a 223 barrel. When I get another action this barrel will go onto it.

Dolomite

what's your overall length on those 168 loads? this looks like a cool project