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I've got the hardware on the way.... Should have it shortly. Not sure when I'll do the install. Still thinking about how to do it as perfectly as possible in a laminated wood stock. If anyone has a tutorial or has pictures of how to install it in a wood stock I would love to seem them.
The Loggerhead system looks really nice....but for an amateur like me I'm afraid I'd just hack the stock. When I needed some additional cheek weld on my .223 Carbine, I went to a Karsten adjustable. I simply drilled two holes in my stock and BLAM!! All done!! And it simply fits....works....and I like it. http://www.karstenskydexcheekrest.co...e-cheek-pieces
I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just offering you an alternative should you decide to take "the easy way" out.
Dave
Problem with the kydex cheek is it looks retrofitted. More importantly, it displaces your cheek further off to the side, making it harder to get your eye where it needs to be.
Anyone know what of internal cheek piece hardware SSS is selling? For example on their Laminated Varmint Tactical Stock?
IF and I mean a big IF SSS ever emails me back... been waiting over a month! I'd just like 5 minutes of Fred's time. Heck if he'd do the work I'd set up an appointment and drive down and have him do it. Heck I'd like to watch it being installed!
I have the hardware in hand. Looks very well made... Anyone recall who was making the replacement bolts for the Loggerhead? With the nice knob so you didn't need a hex head socket or allen wrench to tighten it up?
***UPDATE*** Here is the loggerhead knob info I was looking for.
http://www.controlledchaosarms.com/index.html
Call Terry.Quote:
Originally Posted by EAW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Cross
Loggerhead installed. Photos, full How-To write to up follow in the next few days.... While I'm thinking what wood is Savage using in their stocks? Looks a lot like mahogany inside the stock, has a nice reddish color to it, but on the outside it looks kinda like oak...Cause whatever it is, it cuts nice, chisel's beautifully but chips like rather easily when your trying to drill it, more on that later.
Looking forward to it. I did a how to on a composite stock with Terry's hardware(thread is around here somewhere). Doing it on a wood stock is a bit of a different animal
First of all bare with me, I'm going to throw up the photos and some basic text and come back and tweek things for a day or two to give you all as much info as possible.
**WARNING** If you don't have at least decent wood working skills... you might want to think about this twice.
**TOOL LIST** You should have a good band saw, drill press, forstner bits, normal drill bits, chisels, utility knife, light chiseling mallet, calipers, level, a laser beam or other method of getting a straight line over multiple high and low points is a good idea.
1) Find your sweet spot, in other words the section your going to cut out. This is determined by how close or far you need to be from the scope depending on the magnification your using - eye relief! A template is a good idea. This is where you should be using your calipers to measure the thickness of the stock to see if your current template would have you cutting to shallow or if you can make your piece a bit smaller top to bottom.
I should have had calipers. I intended to buy them BEFORE I got started... never did buy them.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...erHead/LH1.jpg
2) Tape up your stock with painters tape to help cut down on scratches and use a sharpe to trace out your template/stencil... Rubbing alcohol will remove sharpe ink with a bit of rubbing. Plan a head and make those corners round cause a band saw does not cut angles at least not in this application.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...erHead/LH2.jpg
2.5) Don't be shy with the painters tape!
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...erHead/LH3.jpg
3) You'll need to find a way to keep the stock level when cutting out your cheek piece. I removed the butt pad and using a scrap of prefab store bought shelf my Dad had laying around from putting a larger shelving system in my mothers shoe closet used the factory edge of that as part of my lvling system....
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...erHead/LH4.jpg
4) scrap attached - I trimmed it down so it was no taller than the stock was thick... you'll see in the next picture what I mean.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...erHead/LH5.jpg
5) The 2nd leg of my leveling system was a piece of paper towel or brown paper bag folded up and duct taped to the stock.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...erHead/LH6.jpg
6) Getting ready for the cut...I did all right but I did bung this up a little, keep that forward motion when trying to turn a corner or the band saw will dig a hole.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...erHead/LH7.jpg
7) And here we go...
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...erHead/LH8.jpg
8) Okay cut done as you can see, the burn at the back of the stock will be noticeable unfortunately the one at the front, not an issue. Remember you can't make this an angular cut, it must have round corners. When turning a corner with a band saw, keep the blade moving forward.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...erHead/LH9.jpg
9) Test fit... its alright... not as perfect as I would like but I'll accept it for the first attempt... in spite of the total cost of the rifle it is a varmint rifle.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH10.jpg
10) As you can see outline of the logger head clamp drawn out on the stock... pointless. You'll see what I end up with in the end.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH11.jpg
11) If you look closely you can see I did try and use different sized forstner bits to try and follow the pattern I had drawn out.... Don't even bother you'll just have to hog the rest of the material out anyways.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH12.jpg
12) Here is a nice little close up... using hand chisels to do this... if they're sharp the wood Savage used for this 12 VLP DBM is great stuff for chisel work... its not so much fun to drill. Forstner bits work perfect... but normal drill bits coming at the stock cross grain.... not so much fun.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH13.jpg
13) Clamp test fitted, marking the cheek riser prior to drilling the pocket out of its bottom with a forstner bits and then some more chisel work to finish it off. I just rested the riser on a folded towel on the drill press and drilled out my pocked prior to holding the piece in one hand with a heavy leather work glove and hand chiseling out the whole the rest of the way.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH14.jpg
14) Finished pocket on the riser. The wood of this stock is soft enough I only needed the hammer when cutting to help me chisel acrossed the grain and the end of the pocket in the riser and stock. Splitting layers, scraping the side walls and bottom with a nice sharp chisel can all be done with hand power. Much less chance of an accidental split that way.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH15.jpg
15) Hardware installed! If it didn't occur to you, pre-drill those screw holes you've come to far now to have your piece split on you. I pre-drilled and I didn't use any glue... you could, you could even use epoxy. I don't think its needed myself.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH16.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH17.jpg
16) Test fit. At this point I've already drilled the vertical holes that exit the bottom of the stock... be sure and use a drill press for this. I didn't it was already 1am and I just wanted it done. I had about 7 hours into this already. Mostly due to a lot of head scratching, checking and rechecking and checking again my eye relief and I couldn't work straight through on it because of other things I was doing.
NOTE: At some point you've gotten the vertical holes drilled for the legs to pass through the clamp. Hopefully you used a drill press and made sure the stock was level and square before drilling... See below about where NOT to put epoxy. However if the epoxy leaks down the leg holes just let it dry and then gently drill out the holes again.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH19.jpg
17) Test fitting still - loosened the bolts (otherwise known as the riser legs) and got the cheek rise sitting in the cut in flush left to right. Can see the little nick at the back of the cheek riser... keep that band saw moving when turning corners!
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH20.jpg
18) Here is what I mean when I saw this stuff doesn't drill nicely. But then I was using bit(s) from the 26 bit dewalt set and they're pretty aggressive. I think a hole saw or a forstner bit would have done as bad a job or worse. I still haven't figured out how to do it without chipping... maybe if you had a powerful wood burner and you just burn the first 1/4 inch through the wood... Still thinking on that one.
**EDIT** See Memilanuk's comment below, I agree that clamping sacrificial wood on either side of the stock prior to drilling has a good chance cutting down on the chipping.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH21.jpg
19) Also had a huge chip start to break away on the other side... if you look at the top of the hole and the bottom heading forward on the stock you can see the lines. Drilling this hole for the bolt was the worst part. Not the hardest, not the most complicated, just the worst part of the hole install. If I could figure out how to work whatever hard wood Savage uses I would have no qualms about doing this again. As it is I would do it it again... I would just drill or whatever the hole a lot more SLOWLY... But I am not yet convinced the results would be better.
Still got a bit more Sharpe ink to scrub off... it comes off slowly but it does come off. Even now when its done I've got a bit more to scrub off.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH23.jpg
20) 1 Weekend later I glued, clamped and sanded the crack, and then stained it... not bad. Just need to repair the glossy polish on the stock.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH26.jpg
You can see a foggy patch from where I did some sanding... a little wax, varnish or spare varnish should fix that.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH27.jpg
21) Also this past weekend repaired the big chips on the side using Minwax High Performance Wood epoxy. Wear that mask when sanding the stuff!! You can also see 1 inch or so forward of the patch job the ding I put in the stock! The horror after all the taping and care blah blah blah... I freak'n DINGED IT!! LOL
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH28.jpg
I don't feel too bad about the epoxy patch, its stronger than the wood of the stock probably. When Terry puts out the knob to tighten or loosen the clamp bolt it will be hidden even more. I'm going to see if I can't buy a small tube of some "redwood" colored gel stain and darken that up in the mean time. The area also needs some wax or varnish of one sort or other.
22) Other than the gouge I made with the band saw blade I was giving myself a 90% or better till I had to drill the hole for the cross bolt. May be if I had put it on the drill press to drill the cross bolt. Also should have done that for the leg holes. The more I think about it... If I had taken the time to go to the drill press and clamp the stock down and very, very slowly drill the hole it might have turned out better. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. The work is done and its sturdy and functional.
But by far the thing that made this install suck the most was the cross bolt. All in all I'm rather pleased with how it all turned out, even with the patching and clean-up. The hardware is stellar. The wood Savage uses to make stocks with.... ehhh!
23) INSTALL NOTE: Do not let the expoxy go past the red lines. Use match sticks, clay what have you... I knew prior to install but was tired out of my skull and had to come back last weekend drill it all out with a drill press. **I hope Terry doesn't mind me marking up one of his photos, but I really want you guys to have a good install experience!**
Keep the epoxy at the ends!
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...ad/Warning.jpg
23.5) If you look at the picture above you will notice the clamp not resting on the table below because the ends are higher. I saved 1/8th or so by grinding off the higher points. Not sure why Terry made the system this way but I didn't want to dig the pocket into the stock any deeper than I had to. In the end everything fit rather nicely... You can do this or not do this, your choice.
24) Mostly finished product, just need to darken the epoxy and wax and varnish the foggy patches.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH25.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rHead/LH24.jpg
25) As I said even with having to fix the stock I'm not to displeased with how it turned out. The wood Savage uses cuts and chisels great! But it if your trying to drill 90 degrees to the grain or your going to be exiting out of the wood as in the drill bit punching out... watch out its going to chip and splinter. Not sure what it is... looks like Mahogany...but some of it doesn't look that way.
Make sure to get calipers, make a stencil, play with your eye relief till you get it right. Draw it (your cut out) on the stock with round corners! Go slow, measure often! I give myself a 90% other than the chips from drilling hole that are visible from the exterior of the stock.
Things to know about the installing the loggerhead on a wood stock. The "bushings" for lack of a better term or maybe spacers that go on the clamp bolt and the bolt itself are a bit short for my stock. I'd like the bolt to be 1/4 longer for a wood stock and each of the "spacers" should be 1/8 longer. But it does work so don't worry about it.
Accuracy even after the several last disassembles/reassembles hasn't changed thankfully. I may yet order the longer legs from Terry. But I am having a much easier time getting a much better cheek weld, eye relief and eye - scope orientation. Was only able to get a few rounds down range things are working well and I just need some more practice.
Aftermarket tension knobs for the Loggerhead system can be found here.
http://www.controlledchaosarms.com/index.html
A couple thoughts... not sure how well they'd work in practice, but just throwing them out there...
For the splintering/chipout at the end... did you use any kind of sacrificial/backer board clamped against the back side of the stock where the bit was expected to exit? Seems like that tends to help prevent exactly this kind of problem when working with woods with two finished surfaces - like a stock. The painter's tape works okay on the entrance side, but doesn't sufficiently support the fibers at the exit hole.
For making the cut for the cheekpiece... years ago I was talking with someone (Kevin Rayhill?) about something like this, and they suggested making a sacrificial 'sled' from plywood or mdf, with two long pieces joined at a right angle to provide a flat surface to travel across the table of the saw, and an end piece to attach the stock to the 'runners'. They mentioned that additional support for the contoured surfaces could be obtained by pouring a small amount of plaster-of-paris in strategic locations and having it support the other portions of the stock besides just where the screw holes for the recoil pad go into the wood. Any good woodcutting bandsaw blade should power right thru the stuff. Never tried it, but it sounds like it should work ;)
Making the transitions between the cuts is why I've never tried doing one like this... the HP Rifle stocks commonly used around here when I started shooting had only two cuts - one angled cut, coming in from the leading edge of the comb, and one straight cut coming in all the way from the back of the buttplate. That doesn't work with some adjustable buttplates though, as some of them have mounting screw holes top and bottom, not bottom/middle.
At any rate, kudos to ya for taking the chance and giving it a try! Thanks for the pictorial!
Monte
I'd say your first suggestion clamping pieces of sacrificial wood to either side of the stock before drilling the hole for the clamp bolt would work perfectly, provided the pieces where clamped tight enough and had a nice tight fit with where the bit was going to enter and exit the stock.
As for leveling the stock to cut the cheek riser out... you could do that. But if your even some what careful you can do what I did and save the time.
But I think the prize here is your first idea... it should work I imagine, provided your fit is tight enough. But the fit is the key and the issue. But for such a small area it might be do-able without to much effort.
EAW, I think thats a great job. Thanks for the tutorial. I've wanted to do this for a long time but never had the nerve to do it. I have 3 stocks with adjustable cheek pieces but I haven't attempted it yet. Again GREAT JOB!!!
jim
I'd say it's a pretty good diy result! You leaned the hard way about backing up the wood when drilling but other than that I'd say it's GTG!
Thanks for the praise Jim. If you've got the tools and my tutorial helps you work up the nerve... I'd sit down with my tutorial, and a note pad or a computer and just plan it out step by step and write it down prior to starting. Now that I've done it once and with memilanuk's idea to use sacrifical wood on either side of the stock prior to drilling the clamp bolt hole I feel I could do even a better job in a shorter amount of time. Erik.Quote:
Originally Posted by teele1
Thanks for your kind words! I'll have to say I'm rather pleased with how it turned out other than having to do the patching... But sometimes you just have to do to learn. Next time I'll definitely use sacrificial woodQuote:
Originally Posted by bodywerks
Nice job. Thanks for sharing, and I appreciate your descriptions of the problems to help others overcome them.
Another thing to think about is that the stock is a laminate, so you have thin layers of wood between layers of glue/epoxy that are significantly harder than wood...that glue really will dull a bit. Make sure your bits are really sharp, and if you don't sharpen your own bits, it might be worth it to buy new bits for the project, or invest in a set of carbide bits. (That's the reason that saw blades for plywood [also glued laminations] have carbide teeth; it simply holds up better than HSS.)
For the hole that chipped out, another technique to consider is to drill the hole approximately halfway in with a forstner bit from either side in order to reduce chipout. A sacrificial piece of wood clamped to the stock, as was already suggested, will help, but it is hard to get the contour just so so that it is tight against the entire curved surface of the stock.
Bottom line: Even if it looked perfect to us, you would know every little imperfection, (I know I do when I make something). But, trust me, with your now perfect cheek weld and sight picture, the varmints won't be making any snide remarks about that little ding in the stock as they run for their lives!
Bottom line: Nice job and great write up.
Take some PSA-backed (pressure-sensitive-adhesive) sandpaper and stick it on the area of the stock in question, and run a block of MDF over it until you get it contoured to match. Repeat for the other side. You can get the fit as perfect as you want to, and the PSA paper will peel right off afterwards. Alternately, you could use that plaster-of-paris trick to make a custom-moulded clamping caul.Quote:
A sacrificial piece of wood clamped to the stock, as was already suggested, will help, but it is hard to get the contour just so so that it is tight against the entire curved surface of the stock.
True... but it seems like most of the time when I try to 'save time', I inevitably wind up eating any 'savings' trying to undo mistakes or make it look better.Quote:
As for leveling the stock to cut the cheek riser out... you could do that. But if your even some what careful you can do what I did and save the time.
Thomae appreciate the kind words, appreciate it. Not sure on the forstner bit method, drilling into and exiting out through a finished surface seemed to create chipping either way. Personally I'm beginning to think its the wood. Also the drill bits I was using had a http://www.lowes.com/pd_173162-70-DW...its&facetInfo= have a secondary curve on the cutting edge for the lack of a better description. They REALLY grab hold and dig in which probably contributed to the issue. I would use the absolutely sharpest least aggressive bits I had to do this job. Also using a drill press and clamping the piece down and being very controlled and deliberate about the speed at which I allowed the bit to travel down in to the wood. Even to the point of holding back the bits advance....
I Like Memilanuk's idea below... If I was doing this for others I think this would be a way to do it.
After re-reading your section on cutting out the cheek piece/riser it sounds like a great way to do it... I got away with what I did because I had a second pair of hands assisting to maintain level.Quote:
Originally Posted by memilanuk
I like memilanuk's suggestion as well.
If you use drill bits that "cut" the outside diameter, there will be a lot less splintering. Some, but not all forstner bits are designed this way. Brad point bits, like this one pictured below from Global , come to mind. The trick is to have the taper going in toward the center, not out toward the edge. They really do make smooth entry holes in difficult wood.
http://i21.geccdn.net/site/images/n-...RW_BM49616.jpg
Nice bit of info Thomae, I'll have to keep that one in mind.
Well I called Terry up and bought the longer Loggerhead Cheek Piece columns this afternoon and a few spare E-clips.
Also finally remembered where I'd seen replacement tension knobs for the Loggerhead system... not sure but think there is someone else also making aftermarket knobs.
http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers...-hardware.html
http://www.controlledchaosarms.com/index.html
If you have bought the Loggerhead system the bolt has all the info on it (thread info) you need to replace it. Heck you could make your own. Global Industrial has TONs of knobs. Then you just need a bolt, split bushing, do a little drilling or a little welding and you have your handle ready to go. Worth a thought.
Installed the longer legs on the cheek piece system. They're about a inch longer and they do seem to be a bit larger in diameter. Didn't get to test it out as yet but I do like them better than the ones that come with the loggerhead system.